Raleigh Union Station

[ctl]

Correct, that website is privately managed and bears little resemblance to what's going to be built next year.

[DaleCooper]

Hah, yeah that is something I created in early 2011 before the decision was made to renovate the Dillon Supply building.

[RALNATIVE]

...and bears little resemblance to what's going to be built next year.

Do you have the facts about what will be built?

[ctl]

Google

train station "phase i" site:raleighnc.gov

and click on the first PDF file that comes up. Will tell you everything about Phase I, which is what's been funded. The PDF talks a little about Phases II and III, if they ever hapen.

[ERJ170]

Grrrrr.. I do NOT see a proper Business class Lounge space nor do I see sufficient retail space. The business Lounge should be at least 1800-2800 sq ft with a bar, an eatery, a conference room, and preferably pod sleepers along with a main seating area... Retail should include at least 2 fast food, a sit down eatery, a gift shop, a news stand, and a specialty store.. Sheesh! Why does this need to be said?

[ctl]

Personally I'll be thankful for simply a place to park and somewhere comfortable to sit. I suspect 95% of passengers would say the same. I've been in airline lounges no larger than the 415 sq ft allocated for the lounge on the floor plan for the viaduct building. If somebody wants to lease the two spaces marked in salmon on the floor plan for a restaurant, news stand, etc., I'm sure that the city and NCDOT would oblige. Thankfully the city and NCDOT are not in the real estate development business. Well, the city occasionally is -- with mixed results.

[Green_man]

Saw this map of someone's vision for a nationwide high-speed rail network:  https://sites.google.com/site/californiarailmap/us-high-speed-rail-system

 

Would make Raleigh somewhat of a hub!  Anyway, cool to look at, but not likely for the next 25 years.

[ctl]

Whoever drew that map has an overly active imagination and too much time on his/her hands. 

[ajfunder]

^I feel like if this plan was to be implemented, the direct Raleigh Charleston line should be rerouted via Greensboro, Charlotte, and Columbia. HSR needs population density, and the route suggested on the map above has very little.

[ctl]

The thing is, no train runs Raleigh-Charleston today. Amtrak runs NY-Raleigh-Columbia-Savannah-Florida and NY-Fayetteville-Charleston-Savannah-Florida. In theory it would be possible to run Raleigh-Hamlet-Dillon-Charleston, but the segments between Raleigh and Hamlet and between Hamlet and Dillon would require major work to support high speed rail. Raleigh-Hamlet is currently a 60 mph railroad for passenger trains, and Hamlet-Dillon is currently a 50 mph railroad (freight only on this line at present). But hey, the map is all about dreams so why not.

 

As for the current Silver Star, there are occasional proposals to reroute it Raleigh-Columbia via Charlotte instead of via Southern Pines. But the reality is that the train would run slower on an end-to-end basis and it would pass through Charlotte in the middle of the night at nearly the same time as Amtrak's NY-New Orleans Crescent. So unless you want to board a train at 1 am from Charlotte to Florida, I don't believe rerouting the current Silver Star makes any sense.

[kermit]

^ while the schedule of a Raleigh - Charlotte - Columbia Silver Star may not be ideal it would have the virtue of providing a night connection between Raleigh and Charlotte to augment the Piedmont service (depart Raleigh around 9 and arrive in Charlotte around midnight, about an hour before the Crescent Southbound). The northbound trip is problematic (arrive in Charlotte around 6am, Raleigh around 9am), this would be about an hour earlier than the current Carolinian NB run.

 

While more connections between Charlotte and Raleigh would certainly be a good thing, using a long distance train like the Silver Star for corridor service may create reliability problems for regular riders. 

[ctl]

But when NCDOT is able to add the 3rd Piedmont, it will leave Raleigh in the evening and arrive Charlotte in the late evening. So there won't be a need to rely on a rerouted Silver Star for that schedule. And it will also allow a better connection between the Triangle and the southbound or northbound Crescent. 

[kermit]

WRAL reports on the first public meeting on the station: http://www.wral.com/raleigh-transit-hub-taking-shape/12195692/

[ctl]

Yes, it appears an alternative design has emerged that provides little or no improvement in surface parking. Instead it would provide a traffic circle for better circulation and would depend on construction of an adjacent parking deck -- which is not part of the project, is not funded, etc. This is a downer from my point of view because it could be years before the parking deck does materialize. During that interim period we'll have a great station that almost no one can access. 

[DaleCooper]

There is a ton of parking within a short walk, R-line ride or cab ride of the station.  I think people are making way too big a deal about the parking.

[Green_man]

Jonathan, I agree with you about the large quantity of parking downtown; however, with intercity passenger rail such as Amtrak, it's not very realistic to assume a passenger will drive downtown, park in a deck, and then ride the R-line or a cab to the station.  Could you imagine doing that with luggage??  Raleigh needs to design this station for the next 30 years - which means not only providing parking for current demand but also accommodating future growth of passenger rail.

 

Love the building and love the open gathering/waiting space concept design.  Looks like there will be three retail spaces too!  The biggest challenge in my mind is how to deal with the vertical circulation to access the platform(s).  The ease of the accessing the existing station is remarkably easy and will be quite an adjustment for local riders with this new design.

[ctl]

Without parking, the stations in Cary and Rocky Mount will continue to siphon away traffic from Raleigh. I believe ridership at Raleigh immediately fell 20% when the expanded station in Cary opened -- with twice the available parking. 

[Jones_]

Just from peddling my bike around back in there it seems like there is a decent sized parking lot...bigger than the current facility anyway....every person I have ever known to take Amtrak does not feel comfortable leaving their car in downtown Raleigh  anyway so they get rides there for that reason I am thinking....

[DaleCooper]

Without parking, the stations in Cary and Rocky Mount will continue to siphon away traffic from Raleigh. I believe ridership at Raleigh immediately fell 20% when the expanded station in Cary opened -- with twice the available parking.

 

And this is a problem?  If there are more suburban stations that can better serve passengers driving in, then so be it.  They are still getting to their destination, still paying their fare to Amtrak and they aren't clogging up downtown with cars.  Everyone wins.

 

 

Jonathan, I agree with you about the large quantity of parking downtown; however, with intercity passenger rail such as Amtrak, it's not very realistic to assume a passenger will drive downtown, park in a deck, and then ride the R-line or a cab to the station.  Could you imagine doing that with luggage??  Raleigh needs to design this station for the next 30 years - which means not only providing parking for current demand but also accommodating future growth of passenger rail.

 

I agree, it needs to be for the next 30 years, 30 years that will hopefully see a massive increase in the population in and around downtown, a significant improvement in public transit and a gradual transition away from a city that is completely dominated by the automobile.  There are decks not that far from the station.  If you have multiple people in your party, one person drops the others and the luggage off and goes and parks.  There are many solutions to this extremely minor inconvenience.  The people designing and advocating for this station are constantly referencing Grand Central Station, Union Station in DC, etc.  These are places where people access the station by foot or public transit and they manage quite well.  I live a mile from my local train station in New Jersey and have taken many trips by train, usually walking to the station, sometimes taking a cab or getting dropped off by a friend if I have a lot of luggage.  That is how it is for many people who travel by train.  Most airports I've flown in and out of I've had to take some sort of bus or rail shuttle from the terminal to the parking lots, but no one seems to question it there.

Edited March 11, 2013 by DaleCooper

[Green_man]

For all of your assumptions, yes, people living downtown should be able to take the R-line or maybe even walk to the station.  However, people outside of downtown also take the train (I hope!).  If my wife and I were to take the train, (coming from Five Points) I would certainly want to drive to the station, park in either a lot or garage next to it, and walk in.  Similar as you would flying out of RDU.  And I am even someone that is inclined to use public transportation.  Imagine the other 85% of Raleigh.  Why design something that is inconvenient in 2013 and will only continue to get more inconvenient as the city grows and more people travel by train? 

 

All I'm suggesting is adding another level or two of long-term parking above the surface lot.  Yes, I'm glad that people could walk or take the bus to the station, but you can't start from scratch and discourage much of the city off the bat.

[DaleCooper]

I'm not even suggesting that no one coming from the suburbs drive.  What I am suggesting is that they can use the seemingly endless sea of parking that already plagues downtown Raleigh and is severely underutilized. 

 

Is it really such a stretch to ask someone to do this: http://goo.gl/maps/FxjQV

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not really against adding a deck to the station instead of a surface lot.  I'm just saying I think a lot of people are overreacting.

Edited March 11, 2013 by DaleCooper

[ctl]

You try it with children and bags in the rain at night in mid-30s temperature, and then tell us how it went. If Raleigh doesn't put parking by this station, I predict that 80% of the support for it will evaporate. Not even Mitch is proposing to build it without nearby parking. The only question is when. 

[DaleCooper]

I think the prevalence of that mentality is why Raleigh will be stuck for some time as one of the most car dominated major cities in America.  The idea that one must be able to drive directly to the front door of their destination no matter what is incompatible with a vibrant downtown, but hey, it's not the Best City for Car Drivers for nothing.  For now, at least.

 

So, like I said, not against a parking deck, but I want to show you why not having one isn't going to kill ridership.  So, expanding on some of what I previously said.

 

1) Price the parking.  As we know, the current station has a whopping 80 parking spaces (by the way, Cary only has 123, so I don't know where everyone is going to park if they start driving there instead).  How much do they charge for this hot commodity?  Zero.  Don Shoup would probably say "What did you think was gonna happen, dummy?"  Price the parking at Union Station so that it is higher than the surrounding parking garages.  Those who are truly burdened and need to park directly beside the station will pay the premium to do so.  Those who are not will make the rationale economic decision and make the 6 minute walk.  Since the city also owns all of the parking decks, they can create any transit discounts, long time parking specials or parking validation they want. 

 

2) The distance to the existing parking decks isn't as burdensome as you think.  Just think about flying for a moment.  At RDU, Park and Ride 4 is a mile and a half from the terminal.  It functions no differently than taking the R-Line.  More than that, if one of the parking lots is near capacity and you have to park far away from the shuttle stop, you are walking nearly as far just to get to the shuttle stop as you would be from the nearest parking deck to Union Station.  Then, at many airports (fortunately not RDU), you may have to walk a huge distance once you are inside before you arrive at the baggage check area.  Somehow, people pull it off.  Parking decks are enormously expensive.  Let's think hard about how much we really need that on-site parking before adding an expense that could be used to further enhance Union Station.

 

3) Here are some on-site parking space numbers from potentially similar Amtrak stations:

Portland: 225

Denver: 15

St. Paul: 156

Richmond: 30

San Diego: 0

Seattle: 100

Edited March 11, 2013 by DaleCooper

[Green_man]

Park and Rides are used at the airport because there is no room for more parking garages right next to the terminals.  For Union Station, you have the opportunity to put one directly adjacent.  So, why not? 

 

Maybe the lack of a parking garage next door won't hurt ridership like you suggest (I still think it would), but it certainly won't help it - and helping ridership is what we're trying to achieve, correct?

 

BTW, you found the one parking garage within a 1/2 mile walk of the station.  The "endless sea of parking" is in the Fayetteville St area - not very beneficial to train riders.

[DaleCooper]

There are 992 parking spaces in that deck.  Admittedly, I don't know the parking occupancy rate for it.  Anecdotadly, however, it's probably not that high.  Since the current station has the second highest ridership in the southeast despite only having 80 spaces (and I realize parking is a common complaint but the ridership is there nonetheless), I think it will probably suffice.  Also remember, in theory this Union Station project is going to be accompanied by a regional transit plan (provided the citizens some day get to actually vote on it), and this project is designed to be more than a simple Amtrak station.  It is supposed to be a true multimodal center.  A lot more passengers should be arriving by alternative modes than they do today.

 

As to the question of why not?  Money.  Let's look at a typical parking deck, say the new Green Square deck in downtown Raleigh.  It cost $17 million for 900 spaces.  $18,889 per parking space.  $20,000 is about average for an above-ground garage, so Green Square actually did fairly well.  And that is just the up front capital cost, ignoring maintenance.  Is direct on-site parking that critical that we want to spend that much of the project budget on a deck?  NCDOT has this project listed as a $60 million cost, so adding a garage would have a very large impact.  What station amenities should be sacrificed to provide that convenient parking?

Edited March 11, 2013 by DaleCooper