Raleigh Union Station

[ctl]

Let's not use Richmond as a blueprint for how to build an Amtrak station. The Richmond station on Staples Mill Road was built in the 1970s as a desperate measure to get out of Broad Street Station. Everyone in Richmond despises the Staples Mill Road station, and parking is a nightmare.

 

Denver is under reconstruction, and the 15 spaces refers to the temporary station. Based on a satellite photo, I'd say the old station building has about 250 onsite parking places.

 

Have you actually ridden Amtrak into San Diego? There are probably 500 surface parking places within two blocks of the station. Likewise, I don't think you have ridden into Seattle on Amtrak (I have) or you'd know that the station is adjacent to the football stadium and has loads of surface parking.

[DaleCooper]

My post was in reference to Richmond Main Street, not Staples Mill Road. 

[ctl]

Ridership at Main Street is about one-tenth of ridership at Staples Mill Road. 

[DaleCooper]

That it is, but as a train station in the urban core it is much more relevant to this discussion than Staples Mill, which from a planning standpoint has very little similarities to Union Station other than that they will both have Amtrak service.  Of course parking is a nightmare at Staples Mill.  There is virtually no other way to get there.  It's on a 6-lane arterial highway surrounded by suburban strip commercial development.  The only other form of transit is a bus stop with a single route servicing it.  There is a reason why Richmond and Amtrak are looking to restore more service to Main Street.  The time of white flight, urban decay and unchecked sprawl that characterized the decision to move to Staples Mill Road in the 1970's is over. 

[Green_man]

From my rough estimation from the revised prelim site plan, the plan calls for 68 parking spaces.  From my google map counting skills, the existing Amtrak station has 62 spaces.

 

One solution would be to ramp up one of the parking drivelanes to add another level of parking above the parking lot.  So really only about 70-80 of the spaces would be structured.  80 spaces @ $18k per space = about $1.5 million.  Definitely worth it to provide about 150 spaces.

[ctl]

I wouldn't say white flight was the primary driver for Staples Mill Rd in Richmond. Rather, it was operational convenience for the railroad. Subsequent to the 1967 merger of the Atlantic Coast Line RR and the Seaboard Air Line RR, there were many changes to railroad routes in the Richmond-Petersburg area. These routes made it much more convenient for Amtrak to use a new station at Staples Mill Rd instead of Main St. The same thing happened in Jacksonville, Fla. 

 

The SEHSR project would reroute all Amtrak trains through Richmond Main St, but the cost to improve trackage from Acca Yard though Main St to Centralia is very high. A related issue is how to refit Main St to handle a 10X increase in passenger count. Nobody has put a price tag on that yet. And by the way, there is plenty of surface parking within easy walking distance of Main St.

[DaleCooper]

Sure, it was convenient from an operations perspective, but they would not have done it if all of their customers had not been moving away en masse.  Going right into the city core is the most expensive thing to do operationally for pretty much any rail line in the world.  But, we do it anyway, because that is where rail passengers are usually wanting to travel to and from.  Rail and a vibrant and dense city feed off each other.

 

There will be plenty of parking within easy walking distance of Union Station, too.  That was my whole point when I opened this can of worms.  Also, you can bet that Richmond would just love for all that surface parking to be developed.  There are few things more cancerous to a downtown that massive swaths of parking.  Of course, Richmond is also probably regretting the elevated freeway that was rammed right through their city, creating a pretty strange juxtoposition with Main Street Station.

 

 

I've always found it fascinating when I go through Richmond and see this.  Great example of old and new and how our opinions in general on both of them have turned 180 degrees.

 

One thing I have always felt very fortunate about in Raleigh is that it managed to escape having something similar constructed.

Edited March 26, 2013 by DaleCooper

[ctl]

Yes, N.C. politicians of the 1950s made sure that I-95 would run along the US 301 corridor throughout the state. They inadvertently saved Raleigh from an expressway like the one in Richmond. Imagine all the traffic of I-95 running past Crabtree Valley Mall. It could have happened.

 

I still disagree with your point about white flight, however. Staples Mill Rd was open long before Amtrak and VDOT began to think of Richmond as a southern extension of the NEC. The Richmond-Washington-NY trains of today came much later. Foresight in station planning, or just blind luck? The latter, I believe. Amtrak in its early years was notorious for putting stations in industrial parks, etc.

[Green_man]

I saw this tucked away a couple pages into the Midtown Raleigh News section of the N&O today...

 

http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/03/30/2790385/news-briefs.html

 

Raleigh is considering 7 sites for the multi-modal transportation center (different than the Union Station project).  In fact, the 7 sites under consideration are within 2 blocks of the new Union Station.  Its too bad everything isn't being integrated within 1 facility, but glad the city is still planning on relocating the bus station hub to be closer to the other modes.

[orulz]

Raleigh has lost http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/06/12/2959750/raleigh-train-hub-loses-151m-to.html'>15.1 million in federal money for Union Station that it turns out was only "contingently committed" out of reserve funds in the ARRA HSR grant in the first place. Looks like some of the ARRA projects must be over budget.

 

Perhaps this gives us a chance to re-evaluate using the viaduct builidng as the permanent station in the first place, which I've lately come to think is not such a great idea, because:

(1) It's mostly a brick structure , yes, but it's very nondescript - nothing particularly special about

(2) It's inside the wye which severely restricts its accessibility and makes the station configuration somewhat convoluted with too many vertical transitions

(3) Taking up so much space inside the wye limits the station's The ability to expand or explore other possible track layouts in the future.

 

In my mind the ideal design would be one where the station building is OUTSIDE the wye, and the platforms are accessed by a bridge instead of a tunnel.

[ctl]

I expect NCDOT and the City will finalize the design already underway and sort out the funding situation while somebody quietly develops a fallback proposal. A "temporary" station could be sited almost anywhere, such as west of Boylan Avenue or even along the south side of the tracks between Boylan Jct and the current station. Of course, a "temporary" station is likely to remain in use until either SEHSR or commuter service on the NCRR comes about -- and that could be 10-15 years.

[cowboy_wilhelm]

I don't like that the proposed SEHSR platform will be located between the two tracks of the CSX S-Line instead of on a siding, forcing it to be a low platform to allow adequate clearance for freight rolling stock. The big delay at the current station is the time it takes passengers to climb up and down the steps of the coach. However, with the current configuration and building, they don't have a lot of room to change alignment anyway.

Edited June 13, 2013 by cowboy_wilhelm

[ctl]

The solution is a gauntlet track that shifts freight cars about a foot away so that they clear the platform despite high platforms for passenger trains. Several stations in the U.S. have them. Freights do have to slow down through the gauntlet track, but that wouldn't be an issue at the station because of the tight curve immediately south of the station.

[Euphorius]

I have never liked the idea of turning the viaduct building into the train station. I truly hope the city leaders come up with a real plan for a station befitting the area. I think this Amtrak station should at least be on par with RDU, and renovating the viaduct building will not even come close to accomplishing that. It seems to me that the city leaders are all about doing this on the cheap. Do we really want a mediocre train station to replace our current mediocre station? This is something that will be here for a long time. Like I've said before, if we build this mediocre station, citizens are going to go nuts when an addition or completely new station is proposed. I understand that the current station is cramped, but I don't think building a lackluster station with a haphazard design is the solution. This seems like a waste of ARRA funds to me.

[Green_man]

I love the approach of reusing this warehouse.  If you haven't had the opportunity to walk through it, I highly recommend it.  I understand the gripes about it being located inside the wye and the connection issues that come with that.  And I was really hoping that the surface parking lot would be replaced by a parking garage - but that seems even less likely now with even less funding.  I don't understand the mediocre, lackluster, and haphazard descriptions... have you seen the new designs?  The design meets every need that a train station has to and then plus some - and it does it in a unique way.  Last point, it seems the Union Station will actually feel pretty similar to RDU Terminal 2:  high ceilings, lots of natural light, expansive open areas.  I guess the difference is exposed steel beams instead of wood beams???

[Euphorius]

I think I have seen the newer renderings. They looks almost identical to the older ones, if my memory serves me correctly. The inside could be as nice as RDU, but the outside... well, lets just say mediocre is the nicest thing I can say about it. 

[ctl]

I was out of town yesterday. Did anyone attend the event last night?

[Green_man]

N&O has a write up on the latest designs plus a few artist renderings:  http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/06/26/2991507/architects-offer-first-look-at.html

 

Plaza/entrance view looking from CAM (non-existent mid-rise building shown at TTA property to the North):

 

Interior view:

 

Aerial view:

 

And a view from the upper level retail space:

 

I love the architect's comment “The train station for the capital of North Carolina has to be authentic, has to be memorable and has to be unique.”  Although there is a lot left in the process, I think the design is on track with his comments!

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/06/26/2991507/architects-offer-first-look-at.html#storylink=cpy

[Jones_]

I like it a lot. Not sure how the parking will work out but I like the circulation with the two underpasses for easy drop offs. 

[ctl]

This concept is an improvement, and at least there is sufficient asphalt for 5-10 handicapped parking spaces and a taxi queue.

[ctl]

This morning's N&O reports that construction estimates for the station have increased and that an interim Amshack may be in the works. The funding gap for the permanent station is now $35M, and meanwhile the federal stimulus funding has a use-it-or-lose-it aspect. 

Edited July 18, 2013 by ctl

[Green_man]

Separate from the Union Station, but somewhat combined into the future Multimodal Transportation Center will be the new city bus station hub.  Here are the sites that the City is looking at for the city bus station:

 

Once relocated, the Moore Square Station would become just a major transfer stop (similar to Crabtree Mall).  Of course, funding for the new station is not determined, but the Moore Square renovations have about $4.25 million to pull from.  Also, I have not found any mention lately of relocating the Greyhound station closer to the MTC and nothing about incorporating any MegaBus dropoff/pickup.

 

My initial thought would be for a two-level station on Site 3 - with city & TTA buses on the upper level entering from Morgan St... and intracity buses on the lower level entering from Hargett St.  This would also work well with the proposed LRT station on Morgan St between Glenwood & Boylan.

[ctl]

Has Megabus said anything about serving Raleigh proper? As far as I know, they are content with the Durham stop which is only 2 miles from I-85. 

[orulz]

I would honestly prefer that they stay out of the wye.  Really there are a few things that could be done to optimize the wye area that I'm still hoping can happen. Norfolk Southern does not want to consolidate their line with the others, but if we ever want to get the most out of the wye area that's got to happen. I think the problem is that nobody has come to the table with enough money to sway them yet.

 

I think that Glenwood Yard will also be redeveloped eventually. It is on fairly valuable real estate, and it's also not directly on the NCRR which carries the most traffic these days. It will probably be relocated to somewhere east of town. The area between Hammond and the NCRR from I-40 to Rush Street seems like it might be a good spot, but maybe somewhere further east, perhaps between Clayton and Selma, that would make sense because there's more open land. Whenever it's relocated, the easternmost track in the wye can be removed, which will leave sites 3 and 4 available for better station facilities like platforms as well as TOD redevelopments.

 

As for the bus center, Site 5 has the most appeal to me. If they could keep the front portion of the existing building, and build the transfer station behind it, that would make me very happy.

[Green_man]

Isn't the high-speed rail following the eastern leg of the Wye into the station (from the North)?  With the platform pretty much along the back of Citrix?