Raleigh Union Station

[ctl]

On 12/12/2017 at 5:05 PM, Green_man said:

A bit off topic... a residential developer is working on a rezoning application for 1500 Carson St. in Five Points (wants a mix of townhomes and single-family homes on the site), but my question is... does selling this land indicate any major shift for Norfolk Southern or hint at any future plans?  (Could they abandon some rail lines to consolidate all rail traffic to the opposite CSX side of Capital???)

There was an attempt years ago to build a new NS freight yard in the Garner-Clayton area that would allow removal of Glenwood Yard (the one you're referring to). However, NIMBYs killed that plan and I haven't heard that it's being resurrected. Certainly, Glenwood Yard is oversized today for what it does, and effectively it's a stub-end yard. I'm sure NS would like to get out of it. However, the CSX ex-Seaboard yard has been downsized so much that I think it would be tight squeeze for NS and CSX to co-occupy it. Besides, CSX would ultimately control trains in and out of their yard... something NS would hesitate to agree to. 

Edited December 22, 2017 by ctl

[Merthecat]

Raleigh's 1950 train station to be demolished following the opening of Union Station.

https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2017/12/27/downtownraleigh-train-station-to-be-demolished-but.html

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

From what I read, it sounds like the NCRR is going to utilize some of this land for rail realignment. I am not sure if you would want to build anything in the remaining “triangle” shaped land, except maybe parking?

[Jones_]

5 hours ago, Merthecat said:

Raleigh's 1950 train station to be demolished following the opening of Union Station.

https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2017/12/27/downtownraleigh-train-station-to-be-demolished-but.html

Can some of you train guys sketch out the histories of the existing stations in downtown Raleigh? Like, what company they opened as, when they operated, when they ceased operation and why....

The five I know of are:

The State's Seaboard Building. Built in 1862. Originally stood in the footprint of the southern half of the Legislative Building at what was then North Street and Salisbury Street. Back in Station

old Union Station at Martin and Dawson. Back in station built in 1891 I think. 

Southern Railway terminal. Looks like it switched from passenger to freight early on according to Sanborn maps. Back in station built in the early 1900's

What I know only as Seaboard Station. I assume it was built roughly in the 1920's-1940's range but do not know. Pull through Station. 

Current Amtrak station. 

Thanks a bunch!

 

[ctl]

The Union Station of 1890 -- whose headhouse still stands, minus its tower -- served the Seaboard Air Line, the Southern, and the Norfolk Southern. (I mean the "original" Norfolk Southern that operated Charlotte-Raleigh-Norfolk, not today's much larger Norfolk Southern.) Railroads came to dislike the 1890 station because trains had to back in or out. Seaboard, by far the busiest of the three railroads, was the first to leave the 1890 station; they built a new run-through station in 1942. Southern built a new run-through station in 1950. By that time, Norfolk Southern had discontinued its passenger trains so the 1890 property became free for redevelopment. Southern discontinued its passenger service in 1964, after which the 1950 station was used for other purposes. Meanwhile Seaboard and its successor Seaboard Coast Line continued to use the 1942 station. When Amtrak came into existence in 1971, it took over the 1942 station. That remained the case until 1986 when Amtrak moved to the 1950 station where it is today... for a little while.  Logan's Trading Company moved into the 1942 station after Amtrak left.

Edited December 29, 2017 by ctl

[kermit]

7 hours ago, ctl said:

...(I mean the "original" Norfolk Southern that operated Charlotte-Raleigh-Norfolk, not today's much larger Norfolk Southern.) ...

Did you mean Norfolk and Western? Was this the current NS/ACWR routing through Fuquay, Cumnock and Star?

Edit: nevermind -- I found it. That was an era of central NC railroading that I was not aware of. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norfolk_Southern_Railway_(1942–82)#

Thanks for the history! This Durham-native train nerd had never known about Raleigh's Union Station.

Edited December 29, 2017 by kermit

[staffer]

14 hours ago, DwnTwnRaleighGuy said:

From what I read, it sounds like the NCRR is going to utilize some of this land for rail realignment. I am not sure if you would want to build anything in the remaining “triangle” shaped land, except maybe parking?

could be mistaken but I think maybe to add a second through freight track. There will be two center island station tracks when Union station opens this spring, and one through freight track (the track that goes by the current AMTRAK station).  Right now just east of the current AMTRAK station everything narrows to one track until a freight siding several miles east, so not sure if plan is to extend second track further east (would require a new bridge/bridges at overpasses east of current station

[ctl]

Staffer is right, there will be some kind of realignment of the existing track which will be used only for freight after the new station opens. At one time there was talk about extending the prison yard siding eastward to the site of the current station. Currently it ends just west of the station platform. But as far as I know, the bridges over Lenoir/Dawson, South, McDowell, and Western/MLK will remain single track. 

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

In Raleigh’s far far future, when there is an actual need, I wonder what options they’ll have to add more freight and passenger lines/corridors/tracks?  Under? Over? Etc...

[ctl]

If you mean new traditional railroad tracks, the probability of constructing a new  line of any significant length in Raleigh or even Wake County is just about zero. Besides the requirement for linear land, railroads have substantial limitations on grades and horizontal and vertical curvature. Plus NIMBYs would show up.

Light rail, that's a different story although nearly all the light rail proposals have used existing railroad right-of-way for the majority of their run.

The industries that require freight service -- either inbound materials or outbound finished goods -- usually have a high floor-space requirement and so would build a new plant where land is cheap. 

As for commuter service, the existing railroad network could (in theory) support lines from DTR to Wake Forest-Youngsville-Franklinton, Knightdale-Wendell-Zebulon-Wilson, Garner-Clayton-Selma-Goldsboro, Fuquay Varina, Cary-Apex, and Cary-Morrisville-Durham-Hillsborough. The 2018 Union Station, of course, will not be large enough to support all those. Activating all those lines for commuter service -- stations, locomotives and cars, and track improvements -- would take hundreds of millions. Eat the elephant one bite at a time.

[orulz]

I think it would be useful to consolidate the rail lines north and south of downtown Raleigh. There are two lines (NS and CSX) to the north which could be combined onto one multi-track alignment as a part of the HSR project. Simultaneously, the line through Dix could be bypassed, with a new line linking it along the Beltline to the NCRR near Hammond Road. This would eliminate the awkward diamond just west of Union Station and near the Wye, and leave a fantastic rail-trail corridor linking Dix in a flat, straight line directly to Union Station and the heart of downtown.

I feel that this isn't too far fetched; over the years, similar projects have happened in Atlanta, Charlotte, Columbia, even Goldsboro - and elsewhere too, I'm sure.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

3 hours ago, orulz said:

I think it would be useful to consolidate the rail lines north and south of downtown Raleigh. There are two lines (NS and CSX) to the north which could be combined onto one multi-track alignment as a part of the HSR project. Simultaneously, the line through Dix could be bypassed, with a new line linking it along the Beltline to the NCRR near Hammond Road. This would eliminate the awkward diamond just west of Union Station and near the Wye, and leave a fantastic rail-trail corridor linking Dix in a flat, straight line directly to Union Station and the heart of downtown.

I feel that this isn't too far fetched; over the years, similar projects have happened in Atlanta, Charlotte, Columbia, even Goldsboro - and elsewhere too, I'm sure.

Ortiz, that’s a great idea! Maybe you could suggest it to the Dix Park group? I believe that they are taking just these type of ideas? 

[ctl]

If someone could just find NS a place to relocate Glenwood Yard without override by NIMBYs, it would make a lot of sense to combine NS and CSX north of downtown -- HSR or not. However, re-routing around Dix will not be cheap even with at-grade crossings of Saunders and Wilmington. Plus you'd have to eminent-domain some business properties. If you have an eye toward eventual commuter service into south Wake, you would want bridges over Saunders and Wilmington at roughly $25 million each. 

[staffer]

Heard in Charlotte yesterday at BLE light rail inaugural that Raleigh Union Station dedication will be April 27. Also got an email from a friend in Raleigh today with same info. Presumably AMTRAK service shifts there that day.  Also heard from two folks in Charlotte that the third Piedmont train will have its first run June 4 (tentative) but no schedule out yet.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

33 minutes ago, staffer said:

Heard in Charlotte yesterday at BLE light rail inaugural that Raleigh Union Station dedication will be April 27. Also got an email from a friend in Raleigh today with same info. Presumably AMTRAK service shifts there that day.  Also heard from two folks in Charlotte that the third Piedmont train will have its first run June 4 (tentative) but no schedule out yet.

Thank you so much for the update! 

[Jones_]

1 hour ago, staffer said:

Heard in Charlotte yesterday at BLE light rail inaugural that Raleigh Union Station dedication will be April 27. Also got an email from a friend in Raleigh today with same info. Presumably AMTRAK service shifts there that day.  Also heard from two folks in Charlotte that the third Piedmont train will have its first run June 4 (tentative) but no schedule out yet.

Can that new Piedmont schedule be found anywhere yet?

[staffer]

1 hour ago, Jones_ said:

Can that new Piedmont schedule be found anywhere yet?

likely in a drawer at Norfolk Southern

[ctl]

(deleted)

Edited February 27, 2018 by ctl

[ctl]

I found the proposed timetable for 5 daily trains. This was 2009. 

 

Edited February 27, 2018 by ctl

[ctl]

Here's the one for 4 daily trains. Again, 2009. This one might be superseded because more recent thinking would favor an evening departure Raleigh-Charlotte because Amtrak 79 is so unpredictable.

 

[Jones_]

Awesome thanks. I use various Amtrak lines when it fits. Stretching that earliest start, and latest finish, should enable some more commuters to use it. Looks like I can drink a little longer in Durham and Amtrak back to Raleigh too (after heading up there on the DRX). 

[ctl]

Meanwhile the City is pushing ahead on a West St tunnel, although it will mean closing the RR crossing at Cabarrus.

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/traffic/article202620264.html 

[DPK]

3 hours ago, ctl said:

Meanwhile the City is pushing ahead on a West St tunnel, although it will mean closing the RR crossing at Cabarrus.

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/traffic/article202620264.html 

I really wish they had pushed ahead with this sooner so it could have been coordinated with the Union Station project.  They were already ripping up some of the rails in that area.  It would have potentially been "easier" to just dig a trench (over simplification) with nothing there at the time, but I digress.

[kermit]

Glowing comments about Union Station from Trains mag

http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/staff/archive/2018/02/28/all-bragging-aside-you-need-to-see-the-new-raleigh-n-c-passenger-train-station.aspx

Quote

If you haven’t heard of this $88 million project, I am here to predict that you will. Outside of California High Speed Rail and Brightline, I would dare say this is one of the biggest and boldest passenger train projects in the U.S. 

 

Edited March 1, 2018 by kermit

[ctl]

I have read that the Cabarrus St crossing will be closed Monday-Friday next week while NS realigns tracks for the new station.