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Who is responsible for Amtrak stations.....Amtrak I used to assume, but it sounds more like the setup is that if you want Amtrak to stop, you have to build them a stop. I think expanding the station where it is is very doable and still having it be compatible with a transit center. All the functions you listed above Orulz, will have a hard time all being faced to Hargett Street. Walking from the Amtrak Station where it is, to a city bus terminal at Hargett is no worse than most flight layovers I have made. I think the whole deal could/should front up along West Street from Hargett to Cabarrus.

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I think the problem in Raleigh is that the city was going to piggyback on TTA's efforts in the Wye...and when the entire TTA light rail system collapsed, any serious and realistic planning for the multi-modal center collapsed along with it.

The entire fiasco illustrates the shortcomings of multiple agencies/Jurisdictions trying to plan a facility together. The better approach, IMO, is for one agency/Government to step up and take the lead (i.e. the City of Raleigh), take input from the other potential participants on what space/accomodations they might eventually need (TTA, CAT, etc.) and then build the facility, leaving room for expansion by these other participants, if and when they get their act together...otherwise, it's too much like herding cats, and nothing ever gets done.

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I think what we have seen is a long period of time where passenger rail travel grew very moderately, and simply wasn't a good choice for a lot of travelers... rising gas prices, combined with the steady travel time & reliability improvements made along the Raleigh to Charlotte line, have created a larger travel market for intercity rail in NC... and we are not prepared to deal with it. Planning and building these public facilities takes a long time, and the recent resurgence has rendered the Raleigh station inadequate for the job. My sense is that with the renewed interest in DTR, energy prices on the rise (long term), more interest in developing mass transit--both local and inter-regional, and the stated plans of the incoming administration in DC, I think we will actually see something come to fruition with the MTC this time. It may not be built for 10 years, but I believe something will happen. Of course the wye configuration is going to complicate things quite a bit, but it's nothing that can't be overcome. I will be very interested to see the development plan that the city & state come up with next year.

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  • 1 month later...

Just speaking from experience regarding interagency agreements, just because the Federal portion is being sped up, is no guarantee the other agencies portions will be coming any quicker. Unless the multi-model center is modular somehow, everyone's dollars will need to either be present or clearly on the way before proceeding in a prudent manner. I am not sure I have all the agencies involved accounted for so please chime in with changes to this list...

TTA(bus and rail)

CAT

High Speed rail (FTA? Amtrack? Same thing?)

Amtrack(is this fully replaced by HSR?

Greyhound

Wolfline (just a wondering maybe)

Who covers taxi accommodations ?City?

Edited by Jones133
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Staffer, have you heard recent estimates for the S-line rebuild from Raleigh to Petersburg? I haven't, but I'd be very interested to know. I've heard $3-4 billion quoted as the cost for the entire line, but I understand the project's scope has changed since those estimates were produced.

Given all the other worthwhile HSR projects out there, I'd guess that SE HSR might get somewhere in the neighborhood of $1 billion out of the $8 billion available for HSR in the stimulus. That might even be a bit optimistic. To predicate plans on receiving any more than that, though, would - in my opinion - be foolhardy. We're competing for funds with corridors in California, the Northeast, the Pacific northwest, upstate New York, Florida, Texas, and elsewhere. Our EIS is closer to complete than most, and that probably counts for something, but there will be significant pressure to spread the money around.

Regardless of how much stimulus money we receive, though, how far will that stimulus money go towards building the SE HSR line? Even if we're just talking about the part between Raleigh and Petersburg, probably not as far as we'd like. So, we're stuck with a decision of priority then.

It is my hope that actually rebuilding the S line is given the highest priority. This will have the greatest impact across the entire state. As Jones133 points out, since we don't have all the stakeholders lined up yet, if we wind up with a concrete slab for a platform, with the TTA-owned Dillon warehouses serving as a temporary station, that would be fine with me for now - just as long as the trains get rolling sooner rather than later.

In the not-too-distant future, when the plans for light rail are worked out, a public-private partnership could be leveraged to build a permanent, fully integrated station as part of a large mixed use project.

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High Speed Rail funding by Congress should speed along the Intermodal facility in downtown Raleigh. It ought to be an eligible 100% federaly funded project expense -- the first leg should be Petersburg to Raleigh.

Do you have a source for this? I'm interested as to why the Petersburg-Raleigh leg would be first. Am I correct in understanding that this leg would require completely new rails put down in order to bypass Rocky Mount and other areas currently served by existing Amtrak lines? It would just seem kind of backwards to do this one leg first, especially if the leg from Petersburg to DC isn't complete.

I have a hard time imagining that there is a great demand for travel between Petersburg and Raleigh. Raleigh to Charlotte would make more sense, IMO.

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It's pretty clear that the first part of the line that will get built is the Richmond-Raleigh segment. This has been the focus of all the recent tier 2 environmental work and design work that has been done to date.

You're right to say that if this segment stood by itself, it would be pointless. However, it won't stand by itself. The reason for doing this segment first is that it will cut about 2 hours off the time it takes for trains to get from anywhere in NC to anywhere north of Petersburg. It will also allow for much greater frequency north of Raleigh. With the new tracks in place, Raleigh to Washington will take 4 hours instead of 6; from Charlotte to Washington will take 7 hours instead of 9. The trains will run on the conventional tracks between Charlotte and Raleigh, enter the high speed tracks from Raleigh to Richmond, and then complete the run from Richmond to DC on conventional tracks.

Later phases will upgrade the DC-Richmond and Raleigh-Charlotte segments for higher speeds. Still later, the entire corridor might be electrified, resulting in Northeast Corridor-like service all the way down the east coast.

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Thanks for clarifying orulz. That description has the plan make good sense. I've thought this so many times before so I'll just say it here: I'm glad the lines will go ahead and skip some of the rinky dink towns. Having to go through them is a waste of time and a nuisance for travel to DC and all points North. A 4 hr train ride to DC would be wonderful. I wonder how much faster the trip will be than that once the Richmond to DC lines are brought up to high speed tracks. Another 30 minutes shaved off perhaps? Raleigh to DC in 3.5 hours and not having to worry about parking. I'm giddy about the prospect.

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At the risk of sounding ignorant... to make the train go faster, all you need are different rails? And not different trains? Am I following correctly?

The plans do call for new trainsets eventually, but the rails are more important, and if there's not enough money to finish the S-line AND buy new trains, the current trains will do. Actually the existing "Amfleet" cars of the Carolinian can go 125mph.

Since the new HSR line north of Raleigh would not be faster than 125mph at first, the biggest benefits of a new trainset would be:

  1. Looks cool. This is actually pretty important from a branding and public perception standpoint.
  2. Better interiors. Amfleets are a bit cramped and have tiny windows.
  3. Better performance on conventional tracks, because they can tilt to negotiate turns faster.

Unlike California, we're doing the HSR thing incrementally.

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This is an interesting piece of Raleigh's railroad history, but I think you're giving it a bit too much importance.

The original charter to build the line from Raleigh to Richmond failed in 1885, but the line was actually completed 15 years later in 1900 by the Richmond, Petersburg and Carolina railroad, an affiliate of the Seaboard Air Line. This did produce a competitor on equal footing to the ACL with direct service all the way from New York to Florida via Raleigh. I say the SAL was on equal footing with the ACL because passenger trains from both lines had to use the tracks of the RF&P and Pennsy to get from Richmond to New York. Competition between these lines for passengers and freight was intense up until 1967 when they merged to form the Seaboard Coast Line.

After the Staggers Act eased many of the regulations on railroads, and in the face of declining traffic and profits due to the rise of jets and interstate highways, Seaboard System (as it was called then) focused their operation on the old Atlantic Coast Line and reduced operations on the old Seaboard Air Line between Petersburg and Raleigh beginning in the late 1970s. The line was eventually decommissioned altogether in 1985. Luckily, they had the forethought to not abandon the right of way entirely. The rails were pulled up but the real property and easements that constitute the corridor were retained (and inherited by CSX.)

The currently proposed SEHSR will use a heavily upgraded and straightened version of the old Seaboard Air Line route. I read somewhere that 60% of the route miles will be on the old SAL right-of-way and 40% will be new right-of-way constructed to straighten curves and bypass small towns. One could guess that this will result in a cost reduction of approximately 60% over building an entirely new route.

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At the risk of sounding ignorant... to make the train go faster, all you need are different rails? And not different trains? Am I following correctly?

This is a good question. Train speed generally depends on a few things, working in combination with one another.

1. Track Design

2. Station Spacing

3. Power Source

Let's tackle them one at a time.

1.Think about driving- where is it easiest and safest to go fast? On a straightaway. Where is it harder? On a curve. Where is it hardest? On a tight, hairpin mountain road that makes a 180-degree turn in a very short distance. How does NASCAR allow cars to go faster in curves? They bank the raceways in the curves. Railroad tracks share the same properties and are affected similarly by centripetal forces.

The fastest high-speed train lines in the world are very straight, with extremely gentle curves. The radius of the curves allows for trains to turn even at high speeds. Sometimes, as on the NCRR, the tracks are superelevated so that the outside rail is higher than the inside rail. Combining softer curves and outside rail superelevation provides higher speeds.

For higher speeds, construction standards for the tracks also get more stringent- ties need to be closer together,etc.

2. Even if you have a 100% straight track and can run as fast as you want with brand-new equipment, if you have one station every mile along the track, it is unlikely you will ever top 50-60 mph before you need to start slowing down again to stop at the next station. Trains are heavy and steel wheel on steel rail provides much less friction than rubber on asphalt, so decelerating/stopping distances are not inconsiderable. Fast deceleration is often uncomfortable to passengers, just as it is in a car.

3. The fastest trains in the world are all electric. Under the most favorable conditions, you are unlikely to get a fossil-fuel powered train to go faster than 125-140 mph.

Getting back to the Raleigh MTC, the way we are developing high-speed rail in NC allows free intermingling of high-speed trains with conventional speed trains on conventional speed tracks, beneath a 79 mph threshold. This means that you will have trains traveling mostly up to 79-89 mph between Charlotte and Raleigh, but then getting north of Raleigh and getting into the newly built fast section to Petersburg, and cranking up towards the 100-110 mph for long periods of time to cruise at high speeds. Instead of Raleigh to DC in 6-6.5 hours, with varying reliability and trains up to 2-3 hours late, you will get there in 3:45 to 4 hours, with about 90% on-time performance, and if you're late, maybe 10-20 minutes will be the most delay.

Hope this helps!

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Is the old Seaboard Air Line route the railroad line paralleling Atlantic Avenue and heading northeast out of Raleigh? Where do those tracks end? (i.e. where does the route abandonment start) Isn't this the same route that TTA would use for their Raleigh commuter rail project?

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  • 1 month later...

I wanted to share this little tid-bit of information:

I received this reply from Mitch Silver,(Raleigh's Planning Director), about when we could expect the HDR report about the Wye area.

"Due to the possible change in the regional rail technology (Diesel vs. Light Rail) and the Southeast High Speed rail project, the eta will be delayed several months to allow HDR to re-examine new platform locations and right of way changes".

I am supprised that this would take so long, almost two years? I would have thought that most options would have been included? Maybe this is a stall for time until the economy gets better? Thoughts? :dontknow:

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I wanted to share this little tid-bit of information:

I received this reply from Mitch Silver,(Raleigh's Planning Director), about when we could expect the HDR report about the Wye area.

"Due to the possible change in the regional rail technology (Diesel vs. Light Rail) and the Southeast High Speed rail project, the eta will be delayed several months to allow HDR to re-examine new platform locations and right of way changes".

I am supprised that this would take so long, almost two years? I would have thought that most options would have been included? Maybe this is a stall for time until the economy gets better? Thoughts? :dontknow:

The switch from diesel to light rail for the Triangle regioal rail project means greater track separation from the CSX coming from the north and the NCRR heading west from Boylan. Additionally, Raleigh has asked Southeast High speed rail to study bringing the high speed rail into Boylan via the NS tracks where they cross the CSX up on Capital Blvd about a mile north of Jones street. All of these moving parts make it hard to design the new station -- but the good news is that it should be an eligible project for 100% federal funding in the second wave of the High Speed rail funding. Also, if NCRR runs commuter service from Goldsboro, that could affect Raleigh station design.

For hte first wave of funding SEHSR, the state is likely going to request funds for the Cary train station and Hopson Road crossing in the Triangle, both project of which will pick up some of the costs that TTA would have to spend

Edited by staffer
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Is the "Wye" area in downtown Raleigh so unusual that no other city has had the issues/problems that we are having? Trying to bring together,(High speed rail, Light rail, Carolinian-Raleigh to Charlotte lines, buses for TTA-Raleigh, Raleigh City buses-RLine, possible trolleys, taxi's, parking deck, etc...?

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This is pretty unusual. Not too many places have or are planning stations in the middle of a wye, especially not with light rail transit going right through the middle of that wye. This will be complicated because the light rail will need to cross the tracks probably as a below grade trench or tunnel, and the NCRR commuter rail to Goldsboro will mean that there will have to be platforms on at least two legs of the wye. Tying all of this together into a single, well-connected station will be complicated, but if done properly will result in a singularly useful station complex.

One city that has a similar set of issues is Atlanta. They have a lot of land to work with in their wye (they call it the "gulch") but projects built between roughly 1970 and 2000 on former railroad land while the railroads were in decline (MARTA, CNN center, Philips arena, GWCC, Georgia dome) have added some complicated constraints. They've been planning and refining designs for their downtown station for well over a decade, but no money exists to build it yet. A really good writeup on the issues and how they will / should be addressed can be found here: part 1, part 2, and part 3.

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This is pretty unusual. Not too many places have or are planning stations in the middle of a wye, especially not with light rail transit going right through the middle of that wye. This will be complicated because the light rail will need to cross the tracks probably as a below grade trench or tunnel, and the NCRR commuter rail to Goldsboro will mean that there will have to be platforms on at least two legs of the wye. Tying all of this together into a single, well-connected station will be complicated, but if done properly will result in a singularly useful station complex.

One city that has a similar set of issues is Atlanta. They have a lot of land to work with in their wye (they call it the "gulch") but projects built between roughly 1970 and 2000 on former railroad land while the railroads were in decline (MARTA, CNN center, Philips arena, GWCC, Georgia dome) have added some complicated constraints. They've been planning and refining designs for their downtown station for well over a decade, but no money exists to build it yet. A really good writeup on the issues and how they will / should be addressed can be found here: part 1, part 2, and part 3.

First of all, thank you for your very informative reply! :D

Secondly, in your opinion what will the "Wye" area look like if they are truly trying to get all of the above forms of transit, parking as well as re routing of or ext of Glenwood into this area? I am trying to guess if we will end up with two or three buildings in the Wye or one large complex that has many covered/or glassed in areas where we have to walk from one to the other? I just wish I had a general idea of how it will all come together? Frustrated...sorry! :dontknow:

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Our Wye has too distinct areas...from the Boylan Bridge you can see a crescent moon shaped area adjacent to the triangular area. Two adjacent bridges and no adjacent streets that have good vehicle traffic flow for bus routing further complicate the issue. I envisioned the several entities building a least of few separate buildings that someone like the City tries to coordinate linking somehow with basic hardware like canopies and sidewalks. I don't think you need common ticketing areas for everything for it to be functional necessarily. In my mind anyway, proximity is the desirable attribute that makes for ease of use. Too many things piled together make a big cluster f to me.

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While I was at the International Festival in the new convention center there was a booth that sponsered, I think, by the DRA. They had displays of future projects and the WYE was one of them. They had a massing of the buildings and what that general area would look like once the WYE is built. It was quite impressive. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find that image online, and did not have my camera there with me at the time to take a photo. The whole area around Hargett and West was full of 5-10 story buildings.

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