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Initial concern from rail passenger advocates is the station design is optimized for SEHSR or commuter trains, not the existing Amtrak service. However, it could be 15 years or more before SEHSR and commuter trains happen. In the meantime, Amtrak is the only game in town -- by Amtrak, I mean the existing Charlotte-Raleigh, Charlotte-Raleigh-NY, and Miami-Raleigh-NY trains.

If I read the proposed design correctly, it won't allow more than one Amtrak train in the station at a time. This is horrible. The existing Amtrak station has this problem already. Sometimes one Amtrak train must hold back while another makes a station stop. This will get worse when NCDOT adds a third and then a fourth Raleigh-Charlotte round-trip.

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If I read the proposed design correctly, it won't allow more than one Amtrak train in the station at a time. This is horrible. The existing Amtrak station has this problem already. Sometimes one Amtrak train must hold back while another makes a station stop. This will get worse when NCDOT adds a third and then a fourth Raleigh-Charlotte round-trip.

This would be my concern too. I understand that eventually, there will be 2 platforms.. one for the Carolinian.. and one for the SEHSR/Piedmont/Silver something..

I think they are extremely one-sighted for this. They should have at a minimum 2 platforms per site.. meaning 2 on the Amtrak side, 2 on the SEHSR side.

The problem I see is if they, by some chance, can start the Western and Eastern Carolina routes (Asheville, Wilmington, Morehead City), they are gonna have a backup that would be horrible. AND the freight lines are not gonna be very happy about that..

AND what if I can come up with $100Mil to start my own railroad.. where would MY platform be? *grin*

And lastly! Why didn't they put a hotel above the main platform??? Arrgh! Raleigh needs more hotels and reading the info on the Raleigh website, I didn't see ANY mention of a hotel...

I hope the public asks for a little more than what they proposed..

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I hope the public asks for a little more than what they proposed..

As plans move forward, this is definitely the time to bring ideas to the table. The Forum always has great insights that I think sometime leaders aren't able to see or come up with alone. I say write, call, find out information and build support for the best facility for the city.

That being said, maybe there's a reason for not having the more platforms. And maybe, there is consideration of a hotel being included as part of the commercial components. I also noticed that instead of an extension of glenwood ave as seen in some transportation maps, the draft plan proposed a west street extension to saunders st.

A public open house will be held on May 12 to present the report findings and answer questions. The Raleigh Urban Design Center (133 Fayetteville Street) will host two opportunities to attend:

12:00 to 1:30 p.m. - Informal information session with City staff available to answer questions

6:30 to 8:00 p.m. - Formal presentation followed by question & answer

After the open house, a 30 day comment period will be provided followed by the preparation of a final report. Comments must be submitted to Martin Stankus by June 11, 2010.

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Wow, I'm still trying to digest the entire plan! :shok:

I will try to regain some semblance of sanity as I break down the portions, step by step.

Schematics: The city seems hellbent on closing Hargett. In this scenario, it becomes a pedestrian bridge instead of nothing. After all of that, they still found a way to screw up the platforms. Are you kidding me?

Rail: This is where things could get tricky (and I haven't even factored Eastrans or other NCDOT intrastate service into the picture). How are the NCRR commuter trains supposed to stop at the south platform when there is only space for one train (and I haven't even factored Eastrans into the picture)? I see three available tracks, SO USE TWO OF THEM and let NS have the other one! The southbound Carolinian would likely have to share that platform with an eastbound NCRR train during rush hours. At least two tracks are needed for the SEHSR/Silver Star/Piedmont platform since it will easily be the most utilized platform out of the three.

CAT: At some point, the R-Line will need to be broken up into several routes to better serve downtown destinations. While several existing routes--Falls of Neuse, Crabtree, Northclift--could be relocated to Union Station, a special Union Station-Moore Square circulator (a favorite proposal of mine since day one) would easily provide connections to local transportation. Perhaps certain routes that currently serve the Union Station area could be rerouted and replaced by these R-Line spinoffs.

Triangle Transit: This would be an obvious choice for every single bus route that currently misses Moore Square, but it could end up being the home for ALL TT buses. I was previously under the assumption that TT would provide Central Raleigh streetcar/circulator service. Oh well, such a move would allow CAT to operate express buses out of Moore Square.

As far as its rail plan goes, it is what it is, quoting John Fox.

Shops: Why not? Passengers need to something to remember their experience in the capital city.

Edited by kdub1
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Rail: This is where things could get tricky (and I haven't even factored Eastrans or other NCDOT intrastate service into the picture). How are the NCRR commuter trains supposed to stop at the south platform when there is only space for one train (and I haven't even factored Eastrans into the picture)? I see three available tracks, SO USE TWO OF THEM and let NS have the other one! The southbound Carolinian would likely have to share that platform with an eastbound NCRR train during rush hours. At least two tracks are needed for the SEHSR/Silver Star/Piedmont platform since it will easily be the most utilized platform out of the three.

Triangle Transit: This would be an obvious choice for every single bus route that currently misses Moore Square, but it could end up being the home for ALL TT buses. I was previously under the assumption that TT would provide Central Raleigh streetcar/circulator service. Oh well, such a move would allow CAT to operate express buses out of Moore Square.

Shops: Why not? Passengers need to something to remember their experience in the capital city.

Some of the points I'm making. The rail options completely misses the point of multiple frequencies. It only has 3 open platforms at any one time. That is not going to be enough for the frequencies that the stations should be able to handle. I know no one believes me, but there are opportunities out there for a lot more intra-Carolina rail service out there. to the east of Raleigh, there are at least 4 good options (Wilmington, Morehead City, Greenville/Washington, Norfolk). To the South there are a couple (Fayetteville via Fuquay Varina, CLT Express using the ACWR line). And to the west, there are about two (Asheville and Charlotte/Columbia). I know the ridership may not be extremely high, but the price can be factored into it. AND with time comes increased ridership.

Triangle transit could be using the station as one of it's connection points for lines such as the F line (Union Station - Fuquay Varina/Apex), W line (Union Station - North Raleigh/Wake Forest), B line (Union Station - New Bern Avenue/Knightdale-ish), G line (Union Station - Garner). I mean, I know these lines would be a long ways down the road or could potentially be DMU lines, but they are still an option.

And shops are definitely needed. Anytime you have people waiting around, you have the option for increased revenue. The Union Station should have shops and restaurants just like RDU has. or something similar to what Union Station in DC has..

Just some of my thoughts..

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I still think building on the Boylan Wye is a bit like building a cupcake for a party with 20 people. You would have to have a layered design with four different levels for the bus functions, commuter rail, HSR, and apparently everybody's favorite -- LIGHT RAIL. Even a modest station would be difficult around a wye configuration (interesting that they seem intent on reviving a turn-of-the-century design that was already problematic in the '40s). Orulz' concepts posted here are good ideas on how to do it, if it absolutely must be done there. But I think it would open (much like I-40 did) to instant congestion and platform jamming. As many of you have pointed out, it's already bad enough now with half a dozen trains.

Yes, I am. I am going to wake this dog up, and beat it again!!!

Move farther west, knock the *bleep*ing prison down, and stack it with a TOD, and I mean high-density, a la Crystal City or Pentagon City, or if you prefer, since Raleigh politicos seem to brag about emulating it -- Grand Central Station, NYC. High-end and high volume retail will generate enough tax receipts from a self-taxing revenue bond district to pay for the thing within a decade. A high profile retail presence, plus Dix Park (don't get me started on that one!) would ensure a high demand for condominiums stacked on top. It would be a self-sustaining transportation facility, that would not become a money sump as most present-day transport hubs are designed for.

The only problem is that every line would have to go underground, but that isn't as big a deal as it would appear with today's tunnel boring technology. In Kansas City, they build warehouses underground, then layer offices on top -- essentially doubling the revenue potential, and getting the less glamorous stuff of out of sight. It's also not a big deal if the expense is split from two separate cost centers -- one as the station structure itself, and two as the pilings for the above-ground development.

The CP plot is a quadratic form that will accommodate the linear functions of a high-traffic rail facility far better than that Wye. Someone mentioned connectivity to the rest of downtown? A Memphis-style gondola would lift over the old rail alignment, now a pedestrian walkway/bikepath to carry people to the Convention Center, or wherever. You want other benefits? OK. Try not having to negotiate with multiple common railroads for the very expensive privilege of using "Union Station". Trust me on this one. Railroads are not munificent patrons of the community. They will get their pound of flesh and then some in that kind of a deal. Try the fact that the State already owns the rail property in this location, and doesn't have to negotiate anything with anybody, outside of the context of a lease. Last but certainly not least, try the fact that the State also already owns the CP itself and the land underneath it, thus will not have to acquire property for the station at nosebleed prices.

Go ahead. Give me the lame arguments that the beloved Central Prison will never move. Tell me that the State will never move it because it costs too much money, or that the State hates Raleigh so much that it will leave it there as a perennial eyesore and property value depressant. I will tell you in turn that the CP property is one of the crown jewels of North Carolina's entire property inventory, and could be a cash cow of interstate prominence if they play their cards right. And since the state is heavily involved in the building of these stations as correlary assets to its pet project, the HSR, it stands to reason that it would be in the State's own best interests to do this, say nothing of getting rid of Raleigh's wart.

In order to maximize the return on (or hell, even make the thing solvent to begin with) an enormous project like HSR, the State is going to be forced to do big ticket, big idea projects like this one in order to produce a revenue stream out of it. Be sure that the trains themselves will run at a loss. It's what you're running the trains to that will make up the difference in revenue. They are going to have to do these kinds of things in Raleigh. They are doing them in Charlotte. They need to do them in Durham, Greensboro, High Point, Salisbury, and anywhere along the alignment they can.

This is already high stakes stuff folks. Now is not the time to screw around with stopgap depots that will have to be rebuilt in twenty years anyway. It's time to start acting like a big city, if indeed you want the big city frills.

Edited by vitaviatic
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Go ahead. Give me the lame arguments that the beloved Central Prison will never move. Tell me that the State will never move it because it costs too much money, or that the State hates Raleigh so much that it will leave it there as a perennial eyesore and property value depressant. I will tell you in turn that the CP property is one of the crown jewels of North Carolina's entire property inventory, and could be a cash cow of interstate prominence if they play their cards right. And since the state is heavily involved in the building of these stations as correlary assets to its pet project, the HSR, it stands to reason that it would be in the State's own best interests to do this, say nothing of getting rid of Raleigh's wart.

It's time to start acting like a big city, if indeed you want the big city frills.

I love your energy, I love your enthusiasm- I really do. But the difficulty of moving central prison is not constructed on "lame arguments." It is part of the playing field on which the redevelopment of downtown Raleigh must be contested.

Remember who "the State" is. At the policy level, it is mostly very old retired NC residents who grew up when the state as a whole was a far more rural place, or represent a part of the state that IS a much more rural place. With exceedingly rare exception, these folks could care less about urban redevelopment. They're not necessarily against it- it doesn't even appear on their horizon.

This same group of policymakers is supported by an underpaid staff that can barely afford to live in Wake County, let alone Raleigh, and mostly lives in suburban or rural settings, whose only sacrosanct job perk is highly subsidized parking in city decks. Together, these groups manage a governmental entity with a tax structure developed for the economy of the 1930s based around the production and sale of textiles, tobacco, and produce, in a state that in 2010 is increasingly based on services, research, and banking. The mental health infrastructure of the state is in crisis, there is a $65 billion shortfall in transportation funding, and most every state department is reeling financially under the recession.

Re-locating Central Prison is not a matter of getting over "lame excuses" and "wanting it bad enough." The reasons why this is an incredible longshot are cultural, systemic, and embedded in numerous agencies, processes, and practices in state and local government. Pretending that anything else is true is being overly naive about the challenge.

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It's a waste of time to advocate relocating Central Prison. Its population is roughly 1,000. Aside from the fact that most of Central is relatively new, the cost of construction of a "close security" prison like Central was pegged at $114,000 per inmate in a 2006 study for the North Carolina General Assembly. By the time a new prison could be designed, the construction cost per inmate will probably be $150,000. Thus, replacing Central would be a $150 million project -- not to mention the $160 million hospital that's under construction at Central right now. There is no way on earth that the NCGA would allocate $300 million for this purpose. Move on.

Edited by ctl
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Move farther west, knock the *bleep*ing prison down

I agree completely about the prison being there, but it's not going anywhere for a long long time now that they snuck that expansion in there. It's utterly horrible and a bad "welcome to Raleigh" image. One of the first glimpes I had coming back to Raleigh from Charlotte when I took Amtrak for the first time was the prison.

They really need to go ahead and start planting rows and rows and rows of trees that will block the view from the rail line through that area. It's the worst thing ever.

City planning fail.

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Move farther west, knock the *bleep*ing prison down, and stack it with a TOD, and I mean high-density, a la Crystal City or Pentagon City, or if you prefer, since Raleigh politicos seem to brag about emulating it -- Grand Central Station, NYC. High-end and high volume retail will generate enough tax receipts from a self-taxing revenue bond district to pay for the thing within a decade. A high profile retail presence, plus Dix Park (don't get me started on that one!) would ensure a high demand for condominiums stacked on top. It would be a self-sustaining transportation facility, that would not become a money sump as most present-day transport hubs are designed for.

I like your ideas as well as your enthusiasm. Since everyone has pointed out that the prison isn't going anywhere, what would be an alternate suggestion to the Union Station Plan. Perhaps with some creative engineering, that section of tracks could still be used with a building on near near the rear of the Central Prison Property somewhere between Morgan and Boylan St. A series of viaducts that would cover the tracks and provide space to better connect to the street grid and provide space for commercial or residential development could complete this plan. This edge of downtown does need better connectivity if development if denser development is expected to expand in this direction.

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Union Station Task Force announced: (May 4)

"The Raleigh City Council voted unanimously today to approve the roles and responsibilities of the City’s Passenger Rail Task Force. The council has appointed 10 members to the Passenger Rail Task Force to review the City’s proposed downtown multi-modal transportation center project (MTC), also referred to as Raleigh’s Union Station. The MTC would be a transit hub located on South West Street between West Morgan and West Martin Streets. It would connect Raleigh’s multiple transportation modes, including CAT bus service, Triangle Transit’s regional bus service, long-distance bus service (Trailways and Greyhound), Amtrak rail service, The Carolinian and The Piedmont rail services, and future regional and high speed rail services. Today, the City Council agreed that the specific tasks of the Passenger Rail Task Force will be to:

  • <LI class=paragraph>Recommend which track alignment is preferred for Southeast High Speed Rail as it approaches Raleigh Union Station from the north side. The two alternatives under consideration are the Norfolk Southern route via Glenwood Yard on the west side of Capital Boulevard or the CSX route on the east side of Capital Boulevard; <LI class=paragraph>Recommend the preferred option (tracks above ground or underground) for the Blue Ridge Road/Hillsborough Street intersection by the State Fairgrounds. The task force is to weigh financial costs against economic development potential; <LI class=paragraph>Recommend the preferred Triangle Transit mode and track alignment for Raleigh’s Union Station; <LI class=paragraph>Recommend the preferred western and northern termini and individual station locations for the first phase of the planned Triangle Transit rail service; <LI class=paragraph>Evaluate the West Street extension proposal; and,
  • Evaluate the North Carolina Railroad’s commuter rail service.

Members of the Passenger Rail Task Force will report to the City Council and must complete their tasks no later than May 13, 2011. Their recommendations will be considered by the City Council. The first meeting of the Passenger Rail Task Force is scheduled for Monday, May 10 at 9 a.m. in the council chamber at the Avery C. Upchurch Government Complex, 222 W. Hargett St. All meetings of the task force will be open to the public.Also today, council members authorized City staff to pursue federal funding to continue work on the proposed Raleigh Union Station project. For more information about the Raleigh Union Station proposal, visit the City of Raleigh’s website at
, keyword: Union Station."

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I know that a lot of people here are getting tired of my "Kill Central Prison" campaign. And I'm tired of arguing about it myself. So trust me when I say, like I have before, that I feel like I am "wasting my time" here.

It's a waste of time to advocate relocating Central Prison. Its population is roughly 1,000. Aside from the fact that most of Central is relatively new, the cost of construction of a "close security" prison like Central was pegged at $114,000 per inmate in a 2006 study for the North Carolina General Assembly. By the time a new prison could be designed, the construction cost per inmate will probably be $150,000. Thus, replacing Central would be a $150 million project -- not to mention the $160 million hospital that's under construction at Central right now. There is no way on earth that the NCGA would allocate $300 million for this purpose. Move on.

I have seen nothing in this particular response that precludes CP getting knocked down and moved. It depends on what you replace it with.

$300 million?....Ooooh, that number scares me to death!!!....Seriously. Are you kidding me?! Your own $150 million replacement cost for the building itself is about 3x more than the revenues of a 500,000 sq. ft. shopping center at $100 per square foot...Per month!! (And that's low-balling big time, especially if you have a world-class transit system dumping a million people into that place a year!) Some more math. Assume that half that number is services or untaxable revenues (highly unlikely). So let's run it out: 500,000 x 100 = $50,000,000 / 2 = $25,000,000. So, what? 8% tax revenue from that = $2,000,000 per month. Plus don't forget that train tickets have taxes on them too. So with your $300,000,000 replacement figure -- hell, let's make it $400,000,000 for Pete's sake! -- your tax revenue breakeven point for the State from this facility is around 200 months, or 17 years.

Now, as I said in the "Centrium" prop from a while back, throw 4 residential towers on top of that mall (sitting on top of a train station), 32 living floors apiece, 4 flats per floor. 32 residential floors x 4 towers = 128 floors total x 4 units per floor = 512 units total. Now let's say that you believe that the world really has gone to hell in a handbasket and that a condo in downtown Raleigh will never sell for more than $500,000 regardless. So we'll tack an average price on these guys at $250,000 (yeah, a 37th floor overlook with DTR on one side and Dix and Pullen on the other for a half mill...Right!) So here we go again: 512 condo units x $250,000 = $128,000,000. City and county property taxes generated from that, you do the math.

I wouldn't ask the General Assembly to give or "allocate" to me a bloody thing. I would buy it from the State if I had the access to the kinds of capital needed. The way it would be done here in Denver (and the way it is being done with Union Station in the FasTracks buildout) is that the property gets encased into a special revenue district (or a "quasi", if you prefer) that captures and collects added fees and taxes to guarantee the loan. You already know the other term for it...TIF.

Your local airport already collects up to $8 for you to walk in there with a paid ticket and use the place. And you couldn't do that at this station? Hmmm...$8 x 1,000,000 passengers per year (that's only about 2,800 passengers a day folks, that would actually be a failed system -- but just for argument) = $8,000,000 per year x the aforementioned 17-year breakeven = $136,000,000. We're not even including income from retail rental space, rental car taxes or any of that crap here. And we're already in the comfortable bonding range.

Now plug in to those models what I think are realistic numbers: $150+ per square foot/month retail revenues, average condo price of $550,000 (remember you a sitting on top of a bullet train, so don't go comparing this to Soleil or other untassled projects), and in the ballpark of 3,500,000 passengers, or just under 10,000 per day (that's lowball too, if it's a regional and HSR hub). Also remember that a lot of the retail income (I'd say a fifth to a quarter) would probably be coming from Southside Virginia or out of state. That's new money in the State's eye man, and that's money they wouldn't have access to otherwise.

You can build a prison anywhere. You can only put this station for high-speed rail in one of maybe three places: Capital Yards (good luck with that one, and almost a nonstarter as far as downtown Raleigh goes), the Boylan Wye (very tightly constrained, and probably obsolete on opening for capacity), or the prison property. It ain't cheap, but it's the best option you've got, friend.

This is simplistic, granted. You have construction costs (probably remediation costs as well, considering the site), and other considerations. But the buyout cost for the prison is chump change compared to the economic benefits that this parcel can create. Problem is that everybody just throws up their hands, especially in Raleigh, asayin' "Cain't be done!", and never even tries it on paper!

Big numbers aren't so scary when you've got even bigger numbers running 'em down.

(BTW -- Let's do the rent, shall we? 500,000 sq. ft. at, oh, $15 per sq. ft. = $7,500,000 per month floor rent. Take half that for expenses, so $7,500,000 / 2 = $3,750,000 per month net x 12 months = $45,000,000 per year net. $400,000,000 (hell, let's make it $500,000,000 for Pete's sake!) / $45,000,000 = < 12 years. Not including the three decks of office space we threw in for "Centrium" as well.)

Edited by vitaviatic
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Dreams come easy. $300M in up-front capital does not. Fat chance trying to find it, given your math which looks impressive but confuses all kinds of apples-and-oranges numbers.

The State of NC is not going to sell the Central Prison site, nor are they going to sell the Dix site (should be obvious to anyone by now). Nor will they sell the State Capitol site, where somebody could put a visually spectacular 50-story office-and-residential mixed use tower, or the State Fairgrounds which could be redeveloped after tearing down all those old, tacky buildings.

Ironically, there was a proposal in the 1950s to move Georgia Tech out of downtown Atlanta to a site on the Chattahoochee River. The State of Georgia decided not to. Instead, that tract of land on the 'Hooch became Six Flags, and Georgia Tech went on a construction spree after the issue was settled.

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$300 million?....Ooooh, that number scares me to death!!!....Seriously. Are you kidding me?! Your own $150 million replacement cost for the building itself is about 3x more than the revenues of a 500,000 sq. ft. shopping center at $100 per square foot...Per month!!

Thanks for a fascinating pro forma. I'm sure that it's a reasonable assessment of what is possible if there were no other constraints. Unfortunately, your analysis is pointless because the reasons why it is hard to advance a "tear down Central Prison to build a train hub and urban neighborhood" plan have nothing to do with money.

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^Not to mention that shopping center rents are more like $40/sqft/YEAR (3-4 dollars per month). For a twelve month lease on a 1000 sqft that is 3,333 dollars per month, which pings the logical portion of my brain. For reference, in Raleigh, apartment rents hover around 1 dollar per square foot per month....Cameron Court a little less, Lofts on Glenwood, a little more.

Sorry V, but you need to revisit that $150/sq/month retail rate assumption....

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I'm confused about this. I've been reading up on it, looked at some blogs, and skimmed the city's site, but I'm still not sure what this is all gonna be about.

Am I correct in thinking that this future "Raleigh Union Station" will be a transportation hub downtown that will serve as a "gateway" bringing in more people from other places? Can someone explain all this to me, I am totally lost in all the information. I need this dumbed down or something.

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RUS can be viewed simply as a combination train station and bus station. Raleigh needs it, especially with the projected increase in rail usage here (conventional Amtrak, SEHSR, and commuter). But a combo train/bus station doesn't have much sex appeal. Therefore RUS is sometimes being positioned as a "gateway" -- or that it would make Raleigh a "gateway" city -- in the sense that people traveling between the Northeast and the Southeast would pass through Raleigh, perhaps changing trains here or changing modes (train to/from air, train to/from car, etc).

There is some validity to it, but it's mainly hype to generate some excitement and get things moving. Of course, Greensboro used to call itself the Gate City when passenger trains were in their heyday. Charlotte already considers itself to be a gateway city, given the size of Douglas airport.

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RUS can be viewed simply as a combination train station and bus station. Raleigh needs it, especially with the projected increase in rail usage here (conventional Amtrak, SEHSR, and commuter). But a combo train/bus station doesn't have much sex appeal. Therefore RUS is sometimes being positioned as a "gateway" -- or that it would make Raleigh a "gateway" city -- in the sense that people traveling between the Northeast and the Southeast would pass through Raleigh, perhaps changing trains here or changing modes (train to/from air, train to/from car, etc).

There is some validity to it, but it's mainly hype to generate some excitement and get things moving. Of course, Greensboro used to call itself the Gate City when passenger trains were in their heyday. Charlotte already considers itself to be a gateway city, given the size of Douglas airport.

Excellent, thank you! That's all I needed, a simple "this is what it really is". And I agree, Raleigh needs better commuter options. I live in North Raleigh (falls of neuse) and work in the RTP and that commute to and from work every day is a beotch and a half. I doubt there's any real transportation service for me that would be convenient, but getting some of these cars off the road would be a huge help too. The traffic in this area has boomed so much in the last ten years it's like a whole new city. It's like every month there's 20 more cars than before.

I'm all for better transportation period.

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I've lived since in north Raleigh since 1986, and I worked in RTP from that time until last year. Ironically, the commute between RTP and north Raleigh is better today than it was in 1986. I-540 is not limitless, of course. It's unfortunate that I-540 was not designed with an HOV or dedicated bus lane, but it's not surprising either -- at the time the drawings were made for I-540, no one imagined that Wake County have nearly a million residents.

As you will read in other forums, the problem with mass transit (bus or rail) into RTP is the intentionally low density in the park. Triangle Transit has never been able to run enough shuttle buses during the rush hours to serve RTP businesses from one or two transit centers.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Is a subway system completely out of the question? I have no idea how any of that works or if it's even possible with the landscaping. But I would LOVE to take a subway train from north raleigh to the RTP and back every day. My GOD I would use that BEJESUS out of a subway system.

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Is a subway system completely out of the question? I have no idea how any of that works or if it's even possible with the landscaping. But I would LOVE to take a subway train from north raleigh to the RTP and back every day. My GOD I would use that BEJESUS out of a subway system.

A subway would not be cost effective for the distances required.

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