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There are cities MUCH larger than Raleigh that can't even justify the cost of a subway. Phoenix, for instance, is going for light rail over subway because of cost and they have a metro area of approximately 4.2 million. That being said, I think a subway in the Triangle is light years away. We can't even seem to agree completely on HOV lanes, Express lanes and stuff like that, which cost significantly less than a subway. I couldn't imagine the fight it would be taking up a subway.

Edited by Gard
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Is a subway system completely out of the question? I have no idea how any of that works or if it's even possible with the landscaping. But I would LOVE to take a subway train from north raleigh to the RTP and back every day. My GOD I would use that BEJESUS out of a subway system.

A short tunnel here and there as topography and the environment requires probably isn't entirely out of the question (the original Regional Rail plan called for what basically amounted to a short tunnel from Boylan to Hargett street near the multimodal station. But whatever is built here in Raleigh will mostly be on the surface.

My understanding is that the most recent light rail plan puts trains mostly on surface streets downtown.

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There's no need for a subway when you lack surface density--why pay billions of dollars to build a tunnel underneath low density houses and strip malls? It's be cheaper, on a per mile basis, to pay each landowner a fair return on his investment and tear it all down to build a brand new rail line (not that they'd do it) than it would be to build something underground, particular for the 12-18 miles from N. Raleigh to RTP...

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  • 4 months later...

It seems to me like the city may be planning a transit center here with the demands of 2020 in mind, when it's really going to need to meet the demands of 2050 and beyond if we want a long lasting and adequate facility.

It's nice at least to see things progressing.

If Union Station is done on the cheap, then the planned Northeast Transit Center will have to be Raleigh's second primary train station. Such a move would do four things:



  1. the area around Triangle Town Center can fulfill its original purpose of being Raleigh's "second downtown"
  2. once SEHSR becomes popular enough, it will expand and will serve the facility as a long-term stop--maybe even serve as the northern terminus of the Jacksonville route
  3. Wake Forest riders would have an option closer to home
  4. The new station won't force people to travel to Cary or Durham because it would be spread out to deal with Union Station's crowding issues

I still think building on the Boylan Wye is a bit like building a cupcake for a party with 20 people. You would have to have a layered design with four different levels for the bus functions, commuter rail, HSR, and apparently everybody's favorite -- LIGHT RAIL. Even a modest station would be difficult around a wye configuration (interesting that they seem intent on reviving a turn-of-the-century design that was already problematic in the '40s). Orulz' concepts posted here are good ideas on how to do it, if it absolutely must be done there. But I think it would open (much like I-40 did) to instant congestion and platform jamming. As many of you have pointed out, it's already bad enough now with half a dozen trains.

Yes, I am. I am going to wake this dog up, and beat it again!!!

Move farther west, knock the *bleep*ing prison down, and stack it with a TOD, and I mean high-density, a la Crystal City or Pentagon City, or if you prefer, since Raleigh politicos seem to brag about emulating it -- Grand Central Station, NYC. High-end and high volume retail will generate enough tax receipts from a self-taxing revenue bond district to pay for the thing within a decade. A high profile retail presence, plus Dix Park (don't get me started on that one!) would ensure a high demand for condominiums stacked on top. It would be a self-sustaining transportation facility, that would not become a money sump as most present-day transport hubs are designed for.

This is already high stakes stuff folks. Now is not the time to screw around with stopgap depots that will have to be rebuilt in twenty years anyway. It's time to start acting like a big city, if indeed you want the big city frills.

I don't know who came up with the bright idea of locating Central Prison near the wye, but it was an error indeed. If the prison were built elsewhere--say Wade Avenue near Glenwood/St. Mary's--then, perhaps Raleigh would have relocated Union Station to the wye, and there'd be no problems. However, your Boylan Wye TOD makes too much sense for the powers that be, and who knows what kind of NIMBYism would erupt if the prison were moved out of downtown?

Getting Union Station right the first time may be high stakes, but voters in Raleigh will have to start electing leaders who aren't willing to bas****ize every good project whenever the JLF types start bickering about costs.

Edited by kdub1
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The wye was basically in place by the 1870s. Central Prison dates to the 1880s, when it was on the edge of Raleigh. Proximity to the railroad was presumably a factor in site selection.

There was actually a second wye for a time. though I am not sure it functioned as such. From where the Governor Morehead School now is the Southern Railway built a freight lead to Caraleigh Mills and an old chemical plant site across from the Farmer's Market that exploded in the 1890's (still a Superfund site). Then, the N&W (I think it was called that back then) built its line to Fuquay and Fayetteville crossing the NCRR at Boylan at a diamond (1907?), joining the Southern freight lead somewhere on the Dix Campus. Southern abandoned and pulled up the part of the lead from Governor Morehead across what is now Western Blvd maybe in the 1920s or 1930s.

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There was actually a second wye for a time.

You are correct. When the Raleigh & Cape Fear RR (as it was known at the time) built the line to Fuquay in 1905, its northern end was at Caraleigh -- where it joined the aforementioned spur of the Southern. A train from Fuquay would have faced west at the prison site. About 10 years later when the original Norfolk Southern Railway was formed, the Fuquay line was extended straight north across what's now the Western Blvd gulch and through Boylan, thus forming the southeast leg of the short-lived second wye.

Actually there was a third wye at the NS Glenwood Yard. It sits in between Carson St and Gavin St and was built to turn steam engines that the NS acquired second-hand in the 1940s. Those steam engines were too long to turn on the NS turntable.

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Actually there was a third wye at the NS Glenwood Yard. It sits in between Carson St and Gavin St and was built to turn steam engines that the NS acquired second-hand in the 1940s. Those steam engines were too long to turn on the NS turntable.

The NS Glenwood Yard Wye is still functional. If SEHSR came through Glenwoof Yard it would eliminate the Wye, one of the reasons NS opposes that routing.

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^^I am having a hard time envisioning this. Would one of you be able to sketch a quick map? I live in Caraleigh and have seen old local maps that show spurs coming onto the Mill site but don't have a good idea what it looked like north of here. The line that currently crosses Maywood and Lake Wheeler and heads across the Dix property seems to do exactly what you you guys are describing so that is why I can't quite get it...

(the industrial site next to us was Caraleigh Phosphate...a ripe spot for an explosion. I think Mike Legeros' fire department history had it exploding in 1891, but I have Sanborn maps showing it after that so I'm not 100% sure) Thanks.

Edited by Jones133
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http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/ncmaps&CISOPTR=9544&CISOBOX=1&REC=28 tells the whole story. You can see the wye with Central Prison in the middle. The line marked "Southern" was later abandoned, as described earlier in this thread. The line marked "Norfolk Southern" exists today.

Alongside and south of Dix Hospital, the two lines ran parallel to the vicinity of what's now called Lake Wheeler Road (used to be Rhamkatte Road). At that point the Southern had a spur that went due east along what's called Park Ave on the map. This spur served the Caraleigh mill. Park Ave is long gone.

The Southern line ended just south of Walnut Creek, but the Norfolk & Southern line continued on to Fuquay-Varina.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Some time ago the city hired a consultant to study extending West Street across the tracks. The report was completed in March. The report analyzed several options, including raising or lowering the street, and connecting it to West or South Saunders. The report recommended lowering the street and connecting it to South Saunders, since that allowed for somewhat more favorable grades, but that option would have impacts on Rosengarten Park, so word is the Passenger Rail Task Force is endorsing reconnecting the two broken segments of West Street by lowering it under the tracks. City Council will endorse this alternative at tomorrow's council meeting.

This will clearly have some property impacts but it's not clear to me what the extent of those impacts will be. The extension was first proposed as part of a trade with the SEHSR: Build the West Street extension, omit the Hargett Street grade separation.

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This is very interesting. This portion of West has been cut at least since the 1872 Drie Map was published and I am guessing since the railroad was built in the 1850's. Sounds like a waste of consultant money if they were not given the task of balancing engineering with impact on the livability of the city aka impact on nearby development. Are we looking at a tunnel I suppose? Will it accommodate bikes and pedestrians? I would be interested to see drawings even 50% ones.

Edited by Jones133
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You are right that the road would go under the tracks, though it would probably be more of a trench than a tunnel.

The study is here. The drawings available in the study are not really 50%, since this was more a feasibility study than anything. The reason the city hired the consultant was to identify the options, determine if they are feasible, and estimate the costs.

As far as the reason the report recommends West-to-Saunders, two reasons were given: connecting it to South Saunders allows for a connection to areas further south, and the grade south of the tracks would be flatter, which not is not only better for visibility but also for development.

By choosing the West-to-West alternative, the only option for the planned West-Lake Wheeler connection would involve taking out a chunk of Heritage Park. Heritage Park is surprisingly low density given its location: it occupies 17.8 acres with 122 units, for an overall density of just 6.8 units per acre. Even maxing out its existing R-20 zoning would nearly triple the density, yielding 356 units; rezoning to O&I-2 which allows 40 units/acre would mean 712 units. Incorporating Heritage Park in the downtown overlay district would potentially allow for even greater density than that. Properties directly to the north and east are already in the DOD, so expanding the DOD might even not be too controversial.

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  • 3 months later...

Is it correct that Triangle Transit owns the buildings that will be used to house the new Union Station? This is the land where the two large brick warehouses,(formally Dillon Supply), are located?

In the collective option how set in stone are these site plans for Union Station presented by HDR? Will the plans be allowed to be varied by a design group? Are the site plans for the idea of how things should be? Or could be?

If so, do these facts dictate the precise location of the "grand open area" that will be Union Station?

If we are to build Union Station from scratch then why can't we go a little more bold than just in front of the tracks?

What about this...

Have the grand open area be tall and glassed in,(similar to the civic center/RDU airport term B), and build it right over the tracks. Then, as needed people will go underneath on any of the four sides to get to there precise mode of transit? Yes, it will be more expensive? But this is our time to shine? Even though this building probably wont be built out unitl at least 2018+?

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If we are to build Union Station from scratch then why can't we go a little more bold than just in front of the tracks?

What about this...

Have the grand open area be tall and glassed in,(similar to the civic center/RDU airport term B), and build it right over the tracks. Then, as needed people will go underneath on any of the four sides to get to there precise mode of transit? Yes, it will be more expensive? But this is our time to shine? Even though this building probably wont be built out unitl at least 2018+?

Agree with you DwnTwnRaleighGuy. I think going down from a concourse to the platform would add more versatility to the main level and easier access to multiple tracks as well as to areas for buses and other vehicles. If an extension of Glenwood Avenue is incorporated, having the multiple levels would just make sense. I think that bold but classic choices should be made for the station.

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I thought one of the original TTA options included an extension of Glenwood into the station (not through it). The multimodel center is of course entirely different than what TTA was going to do, but the idea was sound at one time, and dusting off those old plans might save a few bucks.

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  • 4 months later...

Interesting article on using the Dillon Supply building as the new station (for considerably less money) and a mention of using the union station parcel for a development project.

http://www.newsobser...uld-become.html

I had a site visit this morning to the proposed H line Amtrak station for Raleigh mentioned in the article this article that Kermit posted. Proposed two station tracks with center island high platform for easy boarding. All existing RGH AMTRAK trains would be served, plus would be commuter rail station for proposed Garner to Durham commuter line. Cost of adaptive reuse of 1960 Old Dillon Supply fabricating building, two station tracks, platform and patking $20m. Raleigh city bond issue on October ballot would include $3m for this project.

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FYI the location of this building is 510 West Martin Street.

I don't think I'm 100% on board with calling this Raleigh's final multimodal station forever. It's actually in a more inaccessible location than the current station. This location is smack-dab in the center of the wye, and there's no way to get to it without going through a grade crossing. Imagine trying to go to the train station 15 minutes before your departure, only to find a freight train in the way blocking your access to the station!

I'd rather a final station be in a more prominent location, perhaps next to and on top of the tracks along Morgan Street. It could be a public/private partnership, with lots of retail, offices, perhaps a hotel...

BUT... this would be a great location for an interim station. The proposed high platforms will be nice. That will cut the dwell times at Raleigh significantly. There's also gobs of underutilized land in the Wye that could be turned into a parking lot.

This would also give us the opportunity to wait until High Speed Rail, Light Rail, and Commuter Rail are all in place before finding a developer for a PPP, be that 10 years from now, or 20, or 30. If all the transit is in place before the PPP, then developers can be expected to bring higher quality proposals to the table. Plus, much of the work that goes into this station, including the H line platform, and any tunnels/bridges used to access the platforms, can be reused even if this station is eventually replaced.

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I think the building would be a good foundation.. with the ability to add on in the center of the wye.. but I think a flyover (and thus closure of the grade crossing) would be an excellent addition.. perhaps one that will dump cars on a 1st floor parking garage.. where the 2nd and 3rd floors will be addition to the station?????

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I see that the city will be holding a public meeting on July 18th with more information about this proposal? Am I the only person here that is still confused about this N&O story? Part of me thinks that this story is just discussing the short term replacement of the Amtrak train station? If on the other hand they are actually talking about using this building as "The" new Union Station, then I don't see that they could add much in terms of a true multi-modal system? I don't see them being able to get multiple things in this building including..light rail, a central waiting space, access to multiple bus systems, the office space for these different companies required to be included...etc?

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This seems about par for course here in Raleigh. Start out with an extravagant project that will accommodate a wide range of uses and still be around 50+ years from now, and then dumb it down to something that will serve one single purpose and have a useful lifespan of about 5-10 years before it's outgrown.

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This seems about par for course here in Raleigh. Start out with an extravagant project that will accommodate a wide range of uses and still be around 50+ years from now, and then dumb it down to something that will serve one single purpose and have a useful lifespan of about 5-10 years before it's outgrown.

Another way of looking at it: float a pie-in-the-sky concept that gets everyone excited but has utterly no prospect of being built in the next 20 years. Then, quickly move on to something that solves an immediate need, will serve for 20 years while regime change takes effect, and can be built in a year or two. I actually ride Amtrak, and I know which interpretation makes sense to me.

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