Shrinkage

[RustTown]

I can understand how Grand Rapids is bigger than Lansing, there simply is more people there and more people moving there. But what I dont understand is how South Lyon and Brighton can be lumped together as an Urbanized area. Talk about a city with no core.

Just wondering, how the first sentence have to do with the second one, or to do with anything? Just wondering because GR has been bigger than Lansing pretty much their whole existences. Just a little confused.

[GRDadof3]

Yeah, I got that, but I was just giving the size of the Grand Rapids MSA liked you asked.

Gotcha. It does seem in this day and age where so many cities are competing with each other for population growth and corporate relocation, that we have a distinct disadvantage because so much of the population resides in Townships within the metro area, and not in the cities.

[Phizzy]

Grand Rapids.

Area: 45.3 square miles

2000 population: 197,800

2004 population: 195,115

Increase 2000-2004: -2,865 (-1.4%)

Map:

Grand Rapids + first tier of suburbs.

Area: 142.8 square miles

2000 population: 375,348

2004 population: 377,051

Increase 2000-2004: +1,703 (+0.5%)

Map:

Grand Rapids + second tier of suburbs.

Area: 575.7 square miles

2000 population: 567,259

2004 population: 583,106

Increase 2000-2004: +15,847 (+2.8%)

Map:

(Actually, if I threw out tiny Wright Township and Alpine Township (both of which, apparently, lost population), and included fast growing Allendale Township, these numbers would be more impressive. It doesn't make a nice square, though. )

Now, compare that with Nashville, a so-called "boomtown".

Area: 502.3 square miles

2000 population: 545,524

2004 population: 546,719

Increase 2000-2004: +1,195 (+0.2%)

So, compared to Nashville, Grand Rapids + second tier of suburbs has a greater population within a comparable area, plus much greater growth, yet it is GR than shows up on the list of fastest shrinking cities.

EDIT: had the land area incorrect fo Grand Rapids + second tier of suburbs. So, it is a bit bigger than Nashville (15% larger), but it has roughly the same population density.

[midude]

Now, compare that with Nashville, a so-called "boomtown".

Area: 502.3 square miles

2000 population: 545,524

2004 population: 546,719

Increase 2000-2004: +1,195 (+0.2%)

So, Grand Rapids + second tier of suburbs has a greater population within a smaller area than Nashville, plus much greater growth, yet it is GR than shows up on the list of fastest shrinking cities.

Thanks for the analysis Phizzy, I think it's right on the mark. One thing I've noticed is that Michigan has a very strong township level of government. In some other states, there is not an equivalent of the township - there are just incorporated and unincorporated areas. The county takes care of the unincorporated areas. In the absence of strong township-level government, cities in other states have been able to annex land from surrounding counties much easier than in Michigan. Thus, like you've shown, we are not comparing apples-to-apples when we compare cities from other states to GR.

[GRDadof3]

You got it Phizzy. I think the National press goes right along with the same lines of thinking too and doesn't question the validity of the stats. I thought I read that the GR MSA had an estimated growth of about 60K between 2000 - 2005, or was that due to the boundaries being changed?

That's interesting that Nashville is almost EXACTLY the same land area and makeup of GR and its 2nd Tier suburbs, and yet Nashville just feels bigger for some reason. I would consider any of those townships on there as Grand Rapids.

Is that for the City of Nashville? Could be the Batman building downtown, but even the airport is much bigger.

[Phizzy]

You got it Phizzy. I think the National press goes right along with the same lines of thinking too and doesn't question the validity of the stats. I thought I read that the GR MSA had an estimated growth of about 60K between 2000 - 2005, or was that due to the boundaries being changed?

The Grand Rapids-Wyoming MSA (Barry, Ionia, Kent, and Newaygo) had an increase of 30,703 (4.1%). The Grand Rapids-Muskegon-Holland CMSA (Allegan, Barry, Ionia, Kent, Muskegon, Newaygo, and Ottawa) had an increase of 60,658 (4.8%).

Is that for the City of Nashville? Could be the Batman building downtown, but even the airport is much bigger.

Yes, it is. The City of Nashville encompasses a large area (all of Davidson County).

Another interesting comparison between Grand Rapids and Nashville:

Grand Rapids-Muskegon-Holland CMSA.

Area: 4,729

Population: 1,315,319

Nashville-Davidson--Murfreesboro--Columbia CMSA.

Area: 6,280

Population: 1,498,836

Population wise, the Grand Rapids-Muskegon-Holland CMSA is a bit smaller than the Nashville-Davidson--Murfreesboro--Columbia CMSA, but is also contained in a far smaller land area.

[GRDadof3]

So we have the population to support a downtown like Nashville's. Interesting.

Credit to Marchingforever in THIS PHOTO THREAD.

[midude]

So we have the population to support a downtown like Nashville's. Interesting.

And an NFL team!

[Phizzy]

And an NFL team!

And an NHL team! That's one thing I don't understand. How can Nashville have an NHL team but not Grand Rapids? Wouldn't you figure that hockey would be much more popular in Grand Rapids than in Nashville? Tennessee doesn't have a single college hockey team, for example.

[civitas]

So we have the population to support a downtown like Nashville's. Interesting.

Credit to Marchingforever in THIS PHOTO THREAD.

I heard that musicians like being "higher." Maybe that explains the tall buildings.

[MJLO]

I think the difference between the GR msa, and the Nashville MSA, among other things is that Nashvilles population is more centrally located, where as that 1.3 mill in GRap, is spread out over the four counties very evenly. The Centrally located GR pop, is more atune to that of an Omaha.

[Rizzo]

The CMSA isn't so much thinly spread out as it is super concentrated to three urban centers.

[MJLO]

Well right, but with that, you don't get the traffic congestion and other problems that come with being a mid- large size city. When you're in Nashville you can tell your in a much bigger city than Grand Rapids.

[Rizzo]

If that's the case why are we comparing the cities again? If GR is small and Nashville is big..

[MJLO]

We are comparing CSMA's right? City to City there's no comparison.

Hey Phizz what's the Urbanized population of Nashville.

[Rizzo]

Then again, if we are comparing cities, Nashville is a Metro City -- so its going to be big. If GR was a metro city it would be in the 500s.

[superNOVA]

The only difference is GR's self defeating, small town attitude. If you told 100 people here that GR was as populated or more popualted than Nashville, 99 of them would laugh at you. The people here seem to only dwell on city proper numbers, and think that those somehow also include the metro.

Hell, GR has a larger economy than many of these so called larger cities. The only reason our downtown blows is because we have a diverse economic base that is not solely finanical or insurance based. We have a market leader in every single federal economic catagory - the only other city to have this - New York.

[MJLO]

That's a cool thought, what are those market leaders, I'm curious. But basically, if we had more Financial and insurance companies our skyline would be better. That makes sense. But I also think it's self defeating that all of those companies are out in the burbs, shunning downtown. Add that with the infrastructure that makes us look like a city a third our size and it all makes sense.

[Rizzo]

The only difference is GR's self defeating, small town attitude. If you told 100 people here that GR was as populated or more popualted than Nashville, 99 of them would laugh at you. The people here seem to only dwell on city proper numbers, and think that those somehow also include the metro.

Hell, GR has a larger economy than many of these so called larger cities. The only reason our downtown blows is because we have a diverse economic base that is not solely finanical or insurance based. We have a market leader in every single federal economic catagory - the only other city to have this - New York.

Absolutely (although downtown hardly blows) -- and if we all thinked we were the shniz it wouldn't matter what kind of industry was downtown we'd want a kick ass skyline anyway. We'd have a thirst for it. It seems to me that community pride and all that good stuff would make for a motivator in skyline and downtown investment. It starts with mentality, and GR is VERY disenfranchised in that respect. Ask an average suburbanite about what they like about GR (The downtown and The City) and you'll get what I'm talking about. I believe snoog's mom can elaborate

[MJLO]

As a GR suburbanite what they like about Grand Rapids, and I'd bet you'd get "Rivertown Crossings"

[peaceloveunderstanding]

As a GR suburbanite what they like about Grand Rapids, and I'd bet you'd get "Rivertown Crossings"

haha true.

[Phizzy]

We are comparing CSMA's right? City to City there's no comparison.

Hey Phizz what's the Urbanized population of Nashville.

Grand Rapids ubanized area:

Population: 539,080

Area: 257 square miles

Density: 2,095 per square mile

Nashville urbanized area:

Population: 749,935

Area: 430 square miles

Density: 1,740 per square mile

[RustTown]

BTW, I edited the size of Michigan's urbanized areas on the first page, as I'd done the conversions from square meters all wrong. It should be corrected.

[egrguy]

So we have the population to support a downtown like Nashville's. Interesting.

Credit to Marchingforever in THIS PHOTO THREAD.

i would have to imagine that when the projects in dt that are currently in progress are complete our dt would be able to rival this picture (at least from a favorable angle)

[grcitydog]

I believe that we are in the stage of building a critical mass downtown - look at all the development happening. The day will come, and soon, when things will tilt in the other direction. There are a lot of condos in the works and on the board right now. If they get filled, they will only draw more people downtown and with a strong downtown there will be a ripple effect through the rest of the city.