Alternative Fuels in the Triangle

[monsoon]

Hope more are coming soon! Kind of sad to see just one here and in Southern Pines....especially since the president thinks this is going to cure our addiction to oil.

It's not clear that E85 is going to cure anything. Unfortunately most of it is being produced in this country by burning natural gas of which we import a great deal. The other thing about E85 is that your mileage will go down when using it. We had a Chevy Tahoe (mainly to pull a boat) last year and it normally got about 17-18. When they started selling E85 here we bought some and mileage dropped to 13. ouch.

I think a much better alternative are diesel vehicles and biodiesel to run them on.

[sax184]

It's not clear that E85 is going to cure anything. Unfortunately most of it is being produced in this country by burning natural gas of which we import a great deal. The other thing about E85 is that your mileage will go down when using it. We had a Chevy Tahoe (mainly to pull a boat) last year and it normally got about 17-18. When they started selling E85 here we bought some and mileage dropped to 13. ouch.

I think a much better alternative are diesel vehicles and biodiesel to run them on.

Ethanol and biodiesel are distractions from the need to reduce energy demand in this country. People like to think that ethanol/biodiesel will make a difference because if that's the case, they don't have to confront the wasteful and energy-super-inefficient nature of living in Clayton in a 3500 sq-ft house and working in RTP, commuting alone in a car that probably gets less than 20 mpg.

Nobody has provided any proof that ethanol or biodiesel has a conclusively positive energy balance that could be scaled to provide for the oil shortages that are coming. To learn more, start reading www.theoildrum.com.

[nadcock]

It's not clear that E85 is going to cure anything. Unfortunately most of it is being produced in this country by burning natural gas of which we import a great deal. The other thing about E85 is that your mileage will go down when using it. We had a Chevy Tahoe (mainly to pull a boat) last year and it normally got about 17-18. When they started selling E85 here we bought some and mileage dropped to 13. ouch.

I think a much better alternative are diesel vehicles and biodiesel to run them on.

I'm not sure its the answer either...especially since growing massive amounts of corn also commands a huge amount of resources (land, water, oil to operate machines).....

[only]

commuting alone in a car that probably gets less than 20 mpg.

So buy a car that gets 50+mpg, and cut your fuel consumption by 60%.

[JDC]

Only Fuel-Flex vehicles will take E-85. The highest grape of ethanol fuel standard (usually post-1995) cars can take is E-10.

I think it's E-15. In my travels I've come across stations where all the gas is 15% ethanol (most recently I think was in Milford, CT).

[RaleighLover]

I think it's E-15. In my travels I've come across stations where all the gas is 15% ethanol (most recently I think was in Milford, CT).

FFVs can use up to E-85.

[RaleighRob]

It's even better that they got biodiesel. If anyone here drives a diesel or knows someone who does (including all those VW drivers in Durham...heheh), then this is a very good thing.

Only Fuel-Flex vehicles will take E-85. The highest grape of ethanol fuel standard (usually post-1995) cars can take is E-10.

Does this place have E10 as well as the E-85?? I heard the place in SouthernPines offered E-10. I drive a Honda, and that's the best I can use.

[RaleighLover]

I'm not sure but it probably does.

You may not know it, but a lot of the gas you currently use may actually already be E-10. You see, E-10 is really just regular gas with ethanol replacing MTBE as all gas that isn't 10% ethanol is 10% MTBE (which is the case with most gas). Some states have outlawed the use of MTBE because of its links to health problems and its contamination of ground water and in those states MTBE has been replaced with ethanol so now all gas in those states is technically E-10.

Because E-10 is essentially common gas with 10% ethanol instead of the 10% MTBE it's never really called or advertised as being E-10.

Long story short, because this gas station carries E-85 chances are there regular gas is actually E-10.

[yoga]

Apparently WalMart wants to play, too.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/08/08/news/compa...dex.htm?cnn=yes

[Transplant]

Nobody has provided any proof that ethanol or biodiesel has a conclusively positive energy balance that could be scaled to provide for the oil shortages that are coming. To learn more, start reading www.theoildrum.com.

I was under the impression that Brazil has scaled up Ethanol to such an extent that they no longer need Middle East Oil. Back after the 1970s oil crisis they started to work on, and require flex fuel vehicles.... maybe this is not a balance.

I agree though that fuel conservation is critical. If you buy a 15 MPG vehicle, tough cookies. The feds could/should require all vehicle to have higher MPGs, but this won't happen for at least a few years (definitely not until after November 2008).

[sax184]

I was under the impression that Brazil has scaled up Ethanol to such an extent that they no longer need Middle East Oil. Back after the 1970s oil crisis they started to work on, and require flex fuel vehicles.... maybe this is not a balance.

I agree though that fuel conservation is critical. If you buy a 15 MPG vehicle, tough cookies. The feds could/should require all vehicle to have higher MPGs, but this won't happen for at least a few years (definitely not until after November 2008).

Brazil is an interesting case, but again, what they have scaled up to is important. You're correct that Brazil is the undisputed leader in flex fuels in the world. Their cars can usually run on ethanol, gasoline, kerosene, and something else I can't remember.

That said, Brazil's experience may not match the US very well. First of all, their demand for fuel is much lower than ours. Essentially, the average Brazilian uses 1/6th the oil per day as an average American.

This is primarily due to the much lower level of car ownership in Brazil.

Then there's population. The US has 298 million. Brazil has 188 million.

So on the demand side, Brazil has 63% of the US population, and that 63% uses oil at 1/6th the rate Americans do on a per capita basis. In short, present-day life in Brazil requires about 10% of the fuel life in the US requires.

On the supply side, Brazil can grow plenty of sugar cane, an excellent crop for ethanol, due to their semi-tropical location. The US has ethanol crops but they are not as good as sugar in terms of the energy production that comes from sugar-to-ethanol.

We can admire Brazil for using their own resources to control their own destiny, but their example does not begin to address the predicament the USA is in regarding energy and liquid fuels. Conservation is the shot we have. Unfortunately, there are no politicians talking about this.