UNC Charlotte Football

[peaceloveunderstanding]

It wasn't even on the list of priorities, but a student/alumni action group made it so. I still don't think it will happen.

In the long-term, you're attracting kids who make their choices based on sports programs instead of academic factors; is that really what you want in a public university?

Agreed. Anyone who would base their college decision on the athletic program is ...

[eastsider]

Agreed. Anyone who would base their college decision on the athletic program is ...

.....someone who wants something to do on the weekends.....other than going home.

[Justadude]

There are better ways of keeping people on campus than adding a football team. The vibrance of a university campus should be a 24/7 thing anyway; the emphasis on weekend entertainment is just a symptom of what is obviously a larger problem.

Again: more attractive living facilities, better academic/extracurricular opportunities and a sense of social connectedness (see: Triangle-area universities) will keep people on campus much more effectively than a small handful of large-scale athletic events.

Also, adding Divison I football invites a certain level of corruption and scandal onto campus. Football is a notorious money-waster, and we all know that you can't succeed in NCAA-I while running a "clean" program.

[AuLukey]

There are better ways of keeping people on campus than adding a football team. The vibrance of a university campus should be a 24/7 thing anyway; the emphasis on weekend entertainment is just a symptom of what is obviously a larger problem.

Again: more attractive living facilities, better academic/extracurricular opportunities and a sense of social connectedness (see: Triangle-area universities) will keep people on campus much more effectively than a small handful of large-scale athletic events.

Also, adding Divison I football invites a certain level of corruption and scandal onto campus. Football is a notorious money-waster, and we all know that you can't succeed in NCAA-I while running a "clean" program.

If a student is going to a public university in North Carolina for academic reasons, Charlotte would be third or fourth on the list (depending on the program.) No offense to my own school, but Charlotte is not YET known as a nationally recognized university for educational purposes. Yes, that is a horrible way of looking at it, but it is true in the grand scheme of things. Should this be improved? Of course, and I hope it does. However, there are reasons students apply to certain universities around this country outside of which colleges the school has nationally ranked. The simple fact of the matter is that sports teams encourage more than just marketing the name of the school but also encouraging campus activity in otherwise dead weekends.

To those who are not fans of college sports (and by fan, I mean you actually GO,) it cannot be easily seen why having sports teams could be beneficial to the university. Charlotte has an identity issue as well as a connectivity issue. There is little to do around the campus which, as you pointed out before, the schools in Triangle are not so much. Chapel Hill has this issue slightly which is a major reason why many of my friends that live there come home more often than students I know at State, App, and Wilmington. Speaking strictly of NC school's, Charlotte is probably the least connected university to the city around it. It is isolated in a sea of big box development. Is this the school's fault or the city's? Zoning in this area has not promoted construction of pedestrian friendly developments which are critical to campus life despite not being part of the campus itself. Everything in the University area in Charlotte is in favor of the automobile which is vastly the reason why UCharlotte has sparked so many apartment developments within a two mile radius rather than just a block or two. That is Charlotte's issue. It isn't that our students are all driving back to Concord, Gastonia, Rock Hill, etc. It's that people live too far from campus to just spend the weekend hanging around it. They would have to drive to campus just to hang out there. So both the lack of entertainment around campus and the distances students live from it are what is causing the "commuter school" appearance when in fact most students actually live within four miles of campus, just not right next door. I'd bet that more than two thirds of the student body work somewhere in the UC or CMills area, so there is no way that they are ALL going home on the weekends, they just aren't spending their time on campus which is what is killing its identity.

As for football costing the school money, this proposed poll is designed to determine just how much money students are willing to pay in order to establish and maintain a team. I hope there will be a well informed article accompanying the poll showing both the pros and cons of college football. The results of this poll will show just how important having a football team is to the students of UNC Charlotte. Those opinions are important to this debate even though it doesn't come down to the students whether or not a team is established. If the student body feels this is so important and they are willing to financially support such a team, then i say there is no reason not to pursue such interests. If the student body votes not to support football, than I will eat my shoe.

All of the needs for the university that you listed I can agree with: smaller class size, improved facilities, and more opportunities are very important as well and in no way would I belittle such needs. I just wish there was a cure for the lack of social connectivity the campus is experiencing from the city abound. That will take effort from the university, students, and the city most of all in order to promote development that will encourage student activity around campus. That is what we should push for, whether it involves football or not.

[monsoon]

If a student is going to a public university in North Carolina for academic reasons, Charlotte would be third or fourth on the list (depending on the program.) No offense to my own school, but Charlotte is not YET known as a nationally recognized university for educational purposes. Yes, that is a horrible way of looking at it, but it is true in the grand scheme of things. ....

I am not sure what you mean by "nationally recognized". Every fortune 500 company in the United States has graduates from UNCC working for them. UNCC was first on my list of schools to go to when I decided to be serious about a college education and the degree that I got from there served me well. Likewise I didn't need a football team to convince me this was a place to get a good eduction.

It sounds to me as if you age going to college for all the wrong reasons.

[AuLukey]

I am not sure what you mean by "nationally recognized". Every fortune 500 company in the United States has graduates from UNCC working for them. UNCC was first on my list of schools to go to when I decided to be serious about a college education and the degree that I got from there served me well. Likewise I didn't need a football team to convince me this was a place to get a good eduction.

It sounds to me as if you age going to college for all the wrong reasons.

Well, not to get into a tussle, but if I was going to college for all the wrong reasons (ie wanting to go somewhere that has football,) i wouldn't be at Charlotte.

Also, while Charlotte may be well known within the business community, that is not all that is out there. By national recognition I mean that the school would not come up on the average national household's list of schools in any one particular category. That's not to say that Charlotte does not have a good program by any means. Our business, engineering, and nursing schools are very well renowned. Thus, in the professional setting, Charlotte would merit mention in those categories. However, when talking about the university as a whole, people doubtfully would put Charlotte in a list of the top 25 Academic programs (think Ivy League,) Athletic programs, etc. That is what I meant by national recognition. I would be a fool to say my school is not good enough for me, my point was merely that Charlotte has not earned itself a name in the national household. So if you walk up to somebody on the street in Fargo and they ask where you go to school, UNC Charlotte will probably not ring a bell (unless they are familiar with UNC Chapel Hill, which then prompts some question about that school.)

I hope that someday Charlotte earns such recognition. Not because I'm not already proud of my school and not because I'm worried people haven't heard of it before, but because the school deserves it. To wear a t-shirt that says University of North Carolina at Charlotte and having people recognize the name rather than associating it with Chapel Hill is something that the school can be proud of. The bigger the name, the more attractive it will become to students throughout the country and the world.

[monsoon]

I don't think has suggested that UNCC is an Ivy League school and I will point out there are NO Ivy League schools in NC. In regard to top 25 Academic programs in the country the only one in NC that could possibly make that list is Duke's MBA program. For undergraduate programs for schools in NC, I can't think of any program that is better known than what is taught at UNCC. Aside from that, the discussion is totally irrelevant to football at UNCC except of course your priorities towards football instead of academics sounds like part of the problem if there is one for UNCC in this regard.

[soccer1guy_99]

I agree Metro that football does not make a school. I say this as both a college football fan and a student that went to a school with a football team. However, your assertion that Duke's Fuquay School is the only top 25 academic program in the state is not correct. I did a quick search and found many programs that were ranked in the top 25. These included programs at Duke (Law, Medicine, Business, and overall), UNC (Journalism, Business, Medicine, and overall #27), NCSU (Veterinary, Industrial Design, and Graphic Design) and ECU (Rural Medicine and Primary Care). I do not think these rankings make a school but these schools are nationally ranked, we should be proud of them.

[Justadude]

I understand the problems with connectivity and a "dead" social life. However, 4 football games a year are not going to fix that (especially if nearly a dozen basketball games and countless other events aren't doing it already). What they WILL do is take much-needed attention and money away from the academic programs that are the purpose of the university.

If football is that big a priority to students and alums, I'd like to see them find a way to subsidize it outside the tax base. The scholarships and facilities necessary to run a program of any significance are FAR too costly to justify.

[jednc]

Isn't UNCC's architecture program recognized as a top 5 program in the nation? I think it used to be at any rate.

[AuLukey]

I thought this was an interesting shot from our friends at the observer. The observer has suddenly had a LOT of sudden interest in UNCC Football, the barrage of articles have those both with a slant towards and against the upcoming student body vote. The observer has multiple articles on the topic including one interviewing Chancellor Dubois, highlighting that he may actually be secretly in favor of football. Another article lists the exact questions that will be issued to the student body for the upcoming student vote. There are too many different articles to list (thanks met) but I found a couple of them to be more informative to the costs of the program.

But anywho, I'm a little mixed about the stadium location across a four lane street from the main campus. One nice aspect about this location is that it would be right next to where the LRT goes under Mallard Creek Ch Rd. This would make the LRT perfect to alleviate parking on game days. I wonder if this location were chosen for an actual stadium, if the stadium and the MCCRd LRT stop could be built to compliment each other. If approved for the same timeframe, I wonder if they could be built in conjunction with each other.

Edited February 12, 2007 by aussie luke

[dubone]

I'd be much more supportive if they planned to get out in the community and use an existing stadium like Memorial. But if they really determine that they're going to go whole hog and build a stadium near campus, why build such a hideous one with so much surface parking around it?

This will be near the LRT on Tryon. Why not build it abutting Tryon to maximize the use of LRT transit?

Also, why would they start out immediately with a full-surround stadium seating? Why not build it to expand to such a situation after time?

Maybe I'm misinterpretting that graphic and it was just a clipart 3d-stadium or something. But if that is the tool for rallying consensus, then it is a bad one, as somehow I'm less supportive of UNCC football after seeing that thing. (Not that I've been more than vaguely beyond neutral before).

[monsoon]

My, my, my. Why in the hell does the city need yet another expensive sports venue? I can think of endless uses for the money that it would take to build that thing that would benefit the students much better than that concrete monster with will stay empty most of the time. They should work out some arrangement to use the BofA stadium and use the LRT to deliver students downtown for games instead of building that stadium. Or let them use Memorial Stadium.

[paholler]

I know I am jumping in late in the discussion, but I have a few questions.

1. Since when has weekend activity related to a university occured on campus? Most weekend activity on all campuses I have attended and travelled to (Big 10 to D III) centers around entertainment districts near the campus. Bars, concert venues, coffee shops, parks, and cafes are all magnets for university student activity. The campus buildings themselves, and the campus grounds, are largely dead as everyone congregates in these areas. Only those who live on campus tend to congregate on campus, and this generally occurs only in the residences.

These districts generally develop around dense clusters of student housing. Several in this forum have pointed to the serious flaws the University City area has with regard to encouraging a dense, pedestrian-oriented campus area.

2. As a follow-up to an earlier question about the four games per year: How, if a football team plays on campus, will it encourage activity on campus (outside of the four quarters of gameplay) that is not tailgating in the parking lot? If any pre or post game activity occurs, one can almost guarantee it will be at places such as the Flying Saucer or Buffalo Wild Wings - not on the campus malll.

Universities are in the business of education - not sports. UNC Charlotte has the goal of becoming a tier 1 research institution in the next sevaral years. This will put them on par with UNC Chapel Hill in terms of classification and make UNC Charlotte eligible for further funding for academic programs. The current enrollment of about 22,000 students is expected to surpass 30,000 in the next few years. The capital necessary to provide space and faculty support for these additional students is great, but is far better spent on academic facilities and faculty, which will further contribute to achieving the university's academic goal and securing more grant funding, than on a football program which is almost certain to lose money. (For a detailed outline of this see yesterday's Observer)

[AuLukey]

I do agree with what you all have said. Campus will lose money on the football program. We aren't Florida where people pour money into whatever they can just for fun and tax write-offs.

Dub, that is not a rendering of the stadium, that was just a generic stadium the O plopped on the plot of land Dubois was saying where it would be location should it be built. Also, they are planning to use other stadiums (most likely Memorial) for the first couple of seasons if it is approved. In fact, one of the questions on the student vote is how far students would be willing to drive to get to a home game. The options go as high as 11-15 miles which could mean a lot of different stadiums.

I do get confused with why people argue with sports venues. I mean, why then do almost all high schools have football stadiums built without question? Nobody says "those kids don't need football, they need more money for books." They just say "they need more money for books." It's a pride issue. Look at Charlotte's focus on Independence High School (currently the longest winning streak in the nation) and the Panthers (now even when they have a bad year.) There are people here who love football and are willing to spend money to show that.

And paholler, I'm still praying the city rezones everything around campus for streetside business development. I'm tired of all the new apartment complexes and big boxes popping up right next to the university. I'd rather see that stuff pop up away from campus if it is going to pop up anywhere. And as for weekend activity on campus, I have been to a LOT of universities where I have seen both the same and the exact opposite as you have. Florida, ASU, UNCCH, and Georgia are all hoppin' on saturdays (and not just during football season.) The areas of the campuses with just classroom buildings are not flush with people, but around the residential areas people hang out in the courtyards, fields, and activity centers (ie UNCC's SAC.) Charlotte's problem is that while it has all those same spaces and places, they are busy during the week but absolutely dead on weekends. This kills any hopes for a successful weekend event/get together on campus as many have tried. No, football does not fix this issue completely, but it does put bodies in and around campus and there is a campus-wide outcry for it.

If UCharlotte continues to grow at the pace it currently is, the UNC system is going to have to start paying more attention sometime. State and UNCCH take waaaay too much of the overall system funding for their respective size. I can appreciate research costs, but on a student to student basis, the kids up there are getting "spoiled" by how much the state is paying per student. Heck ECU is the second largest university in the state and is poised to become the largest and it is still just as neglected as Charlotte. The money may not be there for Charlotte right now, but it will someday. Until then a 3.5 million dollar deficit (after profits from sales, advertising, etc) for football a year is a large price to pay, and one that the 22,000 students would have to incur themselves if more private donations are not found. But do the math there, per student let's figure out how much that would be. If the school grows to 30,000 students, now you're looking at even less per student. The athletics fee is currently $485 for all students. I could do without Lacrosse, but I don't argue with the fee I pay to help support it. There are a lot of sports that don't bring a dime to the campus, yet we still pay for them. Why? Because of the school's pride, we want teams that can make a name for our school, however small (and not how the Duke lacrosse team did it.)

I hope that the stadium is integrated with the LRT really well so that the parking for the LRT could double as weekend parking for the games which creates oodles of profits for the city and the LRT. There are about three or four stops on the LRT that students living around campus could use to get to games (rather than deal with game traffic) which would be very beneficial for both the city and the school. And, it would help make UNCC a much much more modern university if that becomes a normal way of travel, tre urban.

Edited February 12, 2007 by aussie luke

[monsoon]

I do get confused with why people argue with spots venues. I mean, why then do almost all high schools have football stadiums built without question?

Actually CMS is looking at a plan to share stadiums amongst the high schools here. Many question the money required to build and maintain them and argue that this money should be going to academics instead.

[AuLukey]

Actually CMS is looking at a plan to share stadiums amongst the high schools here. Many question the money required to build and maintain them and argue that this money should be going to academics instead.

I wonder how high schools would be able to share stadiums effectively. That sorta ruins rivalry. That, to me, is a big part of the high school experience. And no, that doesn't mean I'm saying academics aren't important.

[atlrvr]

If the students chose to "tax" themselves through higher student fees, and the alumni step up and contribute, then I don't see how anyone else has a right to tell them how they should spend thier money.

I agree that I'm not particularly fond of that site for a stadium. Something like Georgia Tech's would be much more desirable as it is "urban" within the context of the university....it has team shops, and fast food restaurants built into the walls that serve the adjacent resident halls.

[rjp212]

Coming from a school with a successful football program (Virginia Tech) I can tell you that a college football team is definetly beneficial for the school.

College is not just about academics, it is also about building a social life. Social aspects of college are just as important. Football brings a greater sense of school pride and alumni are more likely to stay connected with the school and inturn donate money.

I see no reason why a school as large as UNCC doesnt have a football program. The University area would greatly benefit from the program.

[ChiefJoJo]

The lack of connectivity on campus is due to the fact that Charlotte was built in the 50s I think, during the dawn of the automobile-era, so it's surrounded by sprawl. Most campuses were built in the late 1800s, so they were at least started in a different era.

Why does UNCC think that starting a FB program will create a better campus environent? Even if it would, who will argue creating a FB program is cost-effective? There would only be 6 games per year. Would millions in investments be worth it for 6 home games? There are already 5 D1 FB programs in NC: UNC, NCSU, WFU, Duke, ECU (and ASU has a great D1AA program). Ask anyone who follows this stuff... even with NC's 8-9M population, there is barely enough players to feed those programs with talent. Adding another will make it much worse, and you can bet the other universities will fight any UNCC state funding action through the General Assembly (assuming this would have to be approved by the GA). It's competition for them, and particularly UNC-CH has tons of influence in the GA, so even if UNCC pursued this, there's no guarantee it would move forward.

Who's going to pay for this stadium? I sure wouldn't want my tax dollars going to that--esp in Charlotte, which has built a plethora of sports venues in recent years. Most other stadia in NC (Carter-Finley, Kenan, etc) were built many years ago with mostly (all?)private funds and continue to be upgrraded without public assitance. I can't imagine city voters would support any public money going to this, especially when they could utilize the beautiful 72k-seat B of A Stadium right downtown (students could take the LRT to the games!).

I think UNCC has some tremendous advantages it should focus on--not FB. They are in a growing metro area, that is the #2 finanical hub in the US and one of the fastest growing areas in the nation/SE. They will likely have an LRT stop right on campus that leads to Uptown Charlotte and the financial/cultural hub of the region. Do you know how many campuses would kill for that? It's promising that UNCC is building in Uptown as well.

Bottom line: there are better ways to create a vibrant campus; FB is too expensive; taxpayers likely don't want to pay; other NC universities will fight it; UNCC has lots of other promising opportunites to improve its stature.

[AuLukey]

I don't want to argue with everything you said, but UNCP is starting a football program and building a stadium. I haven't heard of UNCCH or anybody trying to stop them. Charlotte is the largest city in the country without a D1 college football program period. "Utilizing" B o A stadium is not as cheap as you would think. First, you must remember that the city/county/state does not own that stadium. UNCC would have to pay to use the stadium as they would any other, but on a much higher bill. If UNCC is paying for this, so are you technically, the taxpayer. So look at the big picture, if the UNC system pays to build Charlotte a stadium, and say it costs 90 million (a horrible guess, but an example nonetheless,) that would be ten dollars from each tax payer.

Oh boohoo, another sports venue in Charlotte. Did it ever occur to anyone that people fill these sports venues and spend money in our city and in our county? Hot damn, free taxes. Sure it's only six times a year. But then again, the stadium could be used for other purposes. Say, high school games, much like Memorial Stadium does on occasion. It could host UCity area high school graduations. It could host events and concerts (campus has had live performances before from various artists. And I'm aware of how close Verizon is.) A stadium gives us room for income from advertising, from the media (ESPNU on rare occasion,) plus I would hope it would help change the face of that area along with the LRT stations by promoting more small college-town-esk shops.

I highly doubt that a huge parking lot would be built around the stadium as that crude rendering depicts. There would be little need to have huge lots due to the plethora of parking in the university city area, campus, and the LRT park and rides.

Yes, there are other ways of building campus life, but I don't see any developers jumping on board to build college friendly high density retail and such around campus.

EDIT: I just came across a pretty elementary but omniscient Q&A provided by UNCC's student government association in conjunction with the Football Vote.

Q: Will voting for a fee increase cause my fees to go up immediately?

No. The Athletic Department would likely phase in a "football fee" over several years.

Q: What kind of football team would Charlotte get?

Division 1AA or 1A. Because we currently compete in the Division I level, we can not move down to Divisions II or III.

Q: If UNC Charlotte's administration decided to start football tomorrow, what would need to happen?

Scholarships, coaches, staff, facilities, women's athletic programs (Title IX), operational expenses, etc.

Q: What have increased student fees paid for in UNC Charlotte's history?

The SAC, the Student Union, Cone Center, Health Center, playing fields

Q: Why would student fees need to increase for UNC Charlotte to get a football program?

The UNC system does not provide funding for athletics. Tuition pays only for the operating costs to run UNC Charlotte's academic programs. Student fees pay for activities.

Edited February 13, 2007 by aussie luke

[monsoon]

.....

Oh boohoo, another sports venue in Charlotte. ....

If you are now going to be insulting because nobody is buying the argument a football stadium is good for UNCC, then I don't think you are doing much for your case. There is no proof that any of the things you mention will happen. There is plenty of evidence that public money spent on sports venues is a bad investment.

[Vern9r]

If you are now going to be insulting because nobody is buying the argument a football stadium is good for UNCC, then I don't think you are doing much for your case. There is no proof that any of the things you mention will happen. There is plenty of evidence that public money spent on sports venues is a bad investment.

Nearing the end of the first day of voting, approximately 4200 ballots have been cast. This equals close to 20% of the UNC Charlotte student body. To put that in comparison, approximately 2.75% of the student body voted in the last student elections.

This does not indicate which way the students are voting, but it does show that the interest is there one way or another. The vote goes on for two more weeks, but the signs indicate this vote will be the voice of the entire student body.

The first week of voting is the most important as the Board of Trustees will be voting this weekend to determine whether to move forward with the feasability study. Most of us think that this is almost certain to happen, unless the vote is a huge failure.

I don't think this is against the rules (I'm not attempting to sell anything or advertise), but the following page lists all of the recent articles that were available to post: http://www.charlotte49erfootball.com/media.shtml.

[AuLukey]

There is plenty of evidence that public money spent on sports venues is a bad investment.

Then tell me met, why have we continued to build them over the last 2000 years? You would think that someday a city would say "holy crap these make us lose money, let's not build another." Yet, every major city in every major country has at least one sports venue. If considering college and high school stadiums sports venues, then it could be argued that practically every city with a population larger than 5000 people in America have at least one. I'm not arguing your point, but I find it odd that we'd just keep building them if this were the case. There must be something else...

I know I'm fighting a losing battle in an urban forum. But I have a feeling that people aren't going to "boycott" this like they did the arena. Or so they said they did. The citizens of Charlotte may pay for this stadium through state taxes, but I doubt the city of Charlotte itself will pay for it with the exception of assistance with infrastructure.

[rjp212]

The income that the Virginia Tech football team brings is actually subsidizes the rest of the sports teams. It is the only sports program that actually makes money here.