UNC Charlotte Football

[rockhilljames]

To clarify: I think the debate itself is silly.

Clearly UNCC will succeed as a University with or without football. There are enough examples of schools all across the country, and more importantly in our area, that succeed with football that I don't think anyone can (or has, yes I've read the thread) make the argument that UNCC can't do it. Or even that it would somehow harm the school. Resource-wise, size-wise, and regional alignment all point to the schools ability to pursue it. Claiming that football at UNCC will somehow damage the schools reputation, or limit it's ability to succeed academically runs contrary to the overwhelming evidence and is, in my mind, silly.

By the same token, claiming that for the school to take a next step, or to acheive some type of school identity, it must have football is also rather silly. Certainly schools like Georgetown don't suffer due to their lack of football.

Based on your comments you obviously have very strong feelings about it, and I haven't seen any willingness on your part to consider any opposing view.

Edited April 28, 2007 by rockhilljames

[redjeep77]

To clarify: I think the debate itself is silly.

Clearly UNCC will succeed as a University with or without football. There are enough examples of schools all across the country, and more importantly in our area, that succeed with football that I don't think anyone can (or has, yes I've read the thread) make the argument that UNCC can't do it. Or even that it would somehow harm the school. Resource-wise, size-wise, and regional alignment all point to the schools ability to pursue it. Claiming that football at UNCC will somehow damage the schools reputation, or limit it's ability to succeed academically runs contrary to the overwhelming evidence and is, in my mind, silly.

By the same token, claiming that for the school to take a next step, or to acheive some type of school identity, it must have football is also rather silly. Certainly schools like Georgetown don't suffer due to their lack of football.

Based on your comments you obviously have very strong feelings about it, and I haven't seen any willingness on your part to consider any opposing view.

Georgetown does have football. It's 1AA non scholarship (similar to D III).

[monsoon]

....

Based on your comments you obviously have very strong feelings about it, and I haven't seen any willingness on your part to consider any opposing view.

I put myself through college and went to UNCC because it offered an extremely cheap quality education. If it had not been for UNCC's right combination of education and cost structure, I might not have ever gotten a 4 year EE degree. Football no doubt would increase the costs of attending that school and while well off affluent people might disagree, that extra money would have put an additional financial hardship on me which might have extended my time there. Unlike private schools, UNCC serves a significant number of people who simply can't afford to go elsewhere and I would not want to see resources diverted away from this bunch. Or costs placed on them to support a football team. This is the reason I don't think football is needed or wanted at that school and they instead need to focus on how they are going to handle growing to a 35,000 student school in the next 10-15 years. (especially in a state where Charlotte often gets the short end of the stick when it comes to state money)

[rockhilljames]

My bad on Georgetown...guess it goes to show how low profile 1AA football is.

Metro, I understand your point about the costs. I'm not sure that having a football program would negatively affect tution. That would depend on the support from alumni and how much corporate support the program could garner. Student activity fees would go up.

With the current focus of the University on becoming a nationaly recognized research institute, I wonder how much longer the school will fit your description as a school that people go to when they can't afford school elsewhere. It seems to me to be a label they are trying hard to shed, football or no football.

[monsoon]

With the current focus of the University on becoming a nationaly recognized research institute, I wonder how much longer the school will fit your description as a school that people go to when they can't afford school elsewhere. It seems to me to be a label they are trying hard to shed, football or no football.

Maybe, but I think the people running the school know their bread and butter students are not going to be going into research programs there. Many of their students are first timers in their family for getting a degree and I think they are very happy to play this role in NC. I also believe that Charlotte's prosperity is in part responsible for the large number of UNCC students that meet this category which stay in Charlotte and add to the community.

[rockhilljames]

This certainly isn't the thread for this debate, but you raise a very interesting point. I often hear how Charlotte is the largest major city without a top-tier research school, and people often compare us to Raleigh and point to Raleigh's three top universities as a reason so many high-tech jobs have been created there. The job candidates there is among the better pools in the country.

With that being said, if the recent push to increase UNCC's research status is a direct result of this competition, will this alter UNCC's core mission in a fundamental way? If UNCC is not to play that role, than who? If they do, will that change what UNCC means locally and nationally?

[redjeep77]

This certainly isn't the thread for this debate, but you raise a very interesting point. I often hear how Charlotte is the largest major city without a top-tier research school, and people often compare us to Raleigh and point to Raleigh's three top universities as a reason so many high-tech jobs have been created there. The job candidates there is among the better pools in the country.

With that being said, if the recent push to increase UNCC's research status is a direct result of this competition, will this alter UNCC's core mission in a fundamental way? If UNCC is not to play that role, than who? If they do, will that change what UNCC means locally and nationally?

i think that uncc will increase it's research status/funding esp if the new research campus in K town really picks up steam.

[monsoon]

This certainly isn't the thread for this debate, but you raise a very interesting point. I often hear how Charlotte is the largest major city without a top-tier research school, and people often compare us to Raleigh and point to Raleigh's three top universities as a reason so many high-tech jobs have been created there. The job candidates there is among the better pools in the country......

A lot of what is said about about UNCC, I believe, is said out of ignorance of UNCC's importance to Charlotte. I would contend that if you looked at the numbers you would find a huge number of high tech jobs in this city, but they are at smaller firms or in very large firms that are not known for it. BofA and Wachovia employ 1000s of IT workers, Duke is a significant employer of engineers (including civil and mechanical), Microsoft, which isn't in the Triangle at all, has its only development location east of the Miss here in town, and there are literally 100s if not 1000s of companies here that have highly skilled technical people on their staffs. Many, many of these came from UNCC.

Lets also keep in mind that many of the high tech firms the Triangle is known for, are located in RTP and over the years the state has actively encouraged companies to located there over anywhere else in the state. Sure it's easy to claim by some its because of the 3 big schools there, but Charlotte does not get this kind of support from the NC government. With state money they managed to put Dell in Winston, and man, Google way up in Lenoir. Where is Charlotte's share of this pot? Nobody also seems to realize, that UNCC has a top notch architecture school and nursing college that while not considered high tech, produce a number of graduates that end up working in this area.

I really think that UNCC needs to focus on continuing in the role it has played in Charlotte, and these plans to put a football team there, change the school's name, or fault it because phd level research isn't taking place there, are distractions from where the school needs to head. And that direction is becoming the largest state school in the state. (and no doubt that has a lot of people worried).

[Batou]

Wow, guess because I'm a SIS (IT) major I'll have alot of choices in this area after graduating

[soccer1guy_99]

I have a couple observations. The argument over which schools can afford or not afford football can be settled by looking at the Indy Star's financial report database. It shows that UNC-Charlotte is profitable, while ECU, NCSU, WCU and ASU are all not profitable. Overall college football programs are not profitable. Yes, there are exceptions such as UNC; however, this is not the norm. The debate of UNC-Charlotte's focus on research should probably be in a different topic; however, the school is a Doctoral Research University according to Carnegie. ECU is the only other school in the state with this ranking. UNCG, UNC, and NCSU all have higher research rankings. The fact is UNC-Charlotte has succeeded in improving their research and is continuing these improvements. This is not going to change with or without football.

[NLP]

Based at feedback gathered from the football committee meetings held downtown at the Chamber of Commerce it's sounding like it's becoming more of a certainty than a possibility. Quite a departure from the pipe dream days. Anyways, the guest speaker was the AD of USF responsible for implementing football. They're considered by most to be a model of how to move from no football through D-1AA to D-1A. Charlotte AD Judy Rose also acknowledged the changing landscape of college sports and the power that BCS schools are gaining. She's seem to have moved to the position of football being a requirement to protect the basketball program at Charlotte.

[jednc]

Based at feedback gathered from the football committee meetings held downtown at the Chamber of Commerce it's sounding like it's becoming more of a certainty than a possibility. Quite a departure from the pipe dream days. Anyways, the guest speaker was the AD of USF responsible for implementing football. They're considered by most to be a model of how to move from no football through D-1AA to D-1A. Charlotte AD Judy Rose also acknowledged the changing landscape of college sports and the power that BCS schools are gaining. She's seem to have moved to the position of football being a requirement to protect the basketball program at Charlotte.

Wow...this is nothing but great news. Thanks for the info.

[Raintree21]

There's a meeting about prospective football at the UNCC field house tonight. Didn't catch all of the details but just heard a bit on WSOC-TV news a minute ago.

[NLP]

There's a meeting about prospective football at the UNCC field house tonight. Didn't catch all of the details but just heard a bit on WSOC-TV news a minute ago.

Thanks for mentioning that. Also, Mike Persinger (Observer Sports Editor) just told us David Scott was at the meeting and there will be a story in tomorrow's paper.

[AuLukey]

You would think they'd wait three weeks for the school year to start so that the student body could participate. Or maybe perhaps it is just a meeting for the council set aside for this debate. If that was the case though, I'm not sure why it would be in the news.

[Raintree21]

News 14 has a VERY short summary of the meeting. They discussed the pros and cons of having a team, that they would like to play in Division 1, and they will meet again after Labor Day to review the costs and how to potentially fund a team.

[NLP]

You would think they'd wait three weeks for the school year to start so that the student body could participate. Or maybe perhaps it is just a meeting for the council set aside for this debate. If that was the case though, I'm not sure why it would be in the news.

It's the latter, not the former. Just one in a series of committee meetings being held to explore the possibility of football at Charlotte. They have brought in a variety of speakers as well as their own information gathering. They will continue having these meetings until early '08 and end with a recommendation either for or against establishing a permanent football program. Then of course it's up to the Chancellor and BOT to make the ultimate decision.

Here's the link to the story in the Observer as well: http://www.charlotte.com/colleges/story/219386.html

Apparently Fox News Edge did a story on it but I missed that last night.

Personally, I think the recommendation of starting football to the BOT/Chancellor is approaching near lock status.

[monsoon]

It sounds as if the per student fees to support football at UNCC would come to $300 and would be the highest in the UNC system. In fact this football tax would be far higher than any of the other schools. Last week Dick Spangler and Bill Friday, two of NC's most respected educators spoke in Charlotte last week to advise against this plan. They said it would take away from the academics at the school.

I find this to be a staggering amount of money for something that absolutely isn't needed at the school and hopefully saner heads will prevail and the plan will be shelved.

[Andyc545]

It sounds as if the per student fees to support football at UNCC would come to $300 and would be the highest in the UNC system. In fact this football tax would be far higher than any of the other schools. Last week Dick Spangler and Bill Friday, two of NC's most respected educators spoke in Charlotte last week to advise against this plan. They said it would take away from the academics at the school.

I find this to be a staggering amount of money for something that absolutely isn't needed at the school and hopefully saner heads will prevail and the plan will be shelved.

They are not very well respected from many people. Actually most of UNCC hates them at this point because there arguments proved to be invalid in this day and age and showed support towards mostly Chapel Hill's program saying that football should not be funded in a university because it conflicts with academics. I will, with many others, take them with a grain of salt. Charlotte wants football. I have heard that many alumni are not contributing to the school until they start a football program. The school is in support of the program at about 85 percent with the 300 dollar price tag increase. When given the original poll for students and their willingness to pay into the program and how much, it actually had options as high as 500 dollars. The outcome was overwhelming in support of football. I'm not worried about this just because 2 people want to come expose themselves and contradict themselves in front of the public.

[Raintree21]

It's one thing for students to say they would support such an increase in a poll and another thing when it actually happens. I'm in support of football, but not for that outrageous fee increase. I know it's apples and oranges, but when I was at Chapel Hill, we funded the entire Chapel Hill-Carrboro transit system (making it entirely free for students and town residents) with something like a $25 fee increase.

[fortyniner]

Obviously, I'm a graduate of the local university. I whole-heartedly support the addition of a football program. Monsoon, I respect your posts, but I have to differ with you....Football IS needed at (the University of Charlotte). It will give the students and alumni more reasons to gather and show support for their university. (Just look at the excitement generated the last couple of years uptown for the CIAA basketball tournament by those school's supporters). Without the addition of football and a roadmap/time table to Division 1-A status, the basketball program will continue to struggle for success and local/regional/national recognition. Football is the only way the 49ers can aspire to upgrade their conference affiliation and thus provide name-school home opponents (as opposed to what now can be offered to us fans). Moreover, as ASU has shown, the publicity generated by football success can raise admission requests, admission requirements, and overall reputation of the university, which within a decade, could have 30k or more students. The comments by the two Chapel Hill "educators" that if you want to go to a school that has football, don't go to (the U of C) were absolutely assinine. Following their logic, football at UNC-Chapel Hill, ASU, ECU, UNC-Pembroke, and others should be disbanded. Local college football for the 19th largest city in the U.S. is a "no-brainer." The majority of the students and alumni want it, are willing to pay for it, and realize the addition of gridiron sports raises the city's profile, and for goodness sakes, it would be FUN!

Yes, UNC Charlotte is underfunded and shortchanged annually. It has been the nature of the beast, in this heretofore predominantly rural controlled state. I hope Mayor Pat makes it to the Governor's Mansion, and I hope he can influence members of both parties to reform the UNC system funding formula.

Be you pro-college sports, anti-college sports, or neutral, I hope you will join me soon at Charlotte's first football game. It seems win-win-win to me, win or lose the game.

[Rufus]

Let's clarify something....yes, if the $300 dollar increase is approved, then students at UNCC will pay more than any other state school. But, the article mentions that UNCC ranks 13 or 14 out of 16 public institutions in terms of state funds...that's right, the third largest school in the system gets the third to last amount of state funds. That is why students already pay high student fees...we have to pay for our own buildings and programs. The article does a somewhat crappy job in pointing this out. Most of the new construction on campus has been funded privately, by wealthy businesses and/or persons, and the new Student Union is being paid for by our student fees.

If we want football, then the UNC system is going to disagree and not provide any funds....so, the students have said that they will pay the funds. IF the students want it, then they should do whatever they want to achieve it. It's not our fault that because we want football, we will pay the highest student fees. It is the fault of a lopsided UNC system that has shafted the Charlotte area for way too long, and rarely provides adequate funding to one of their largest schools. Even when UNCC is poised to reach the Carnegie Foundation's highest research ranking, which will hopefully come in May, will the UNC system provide enough funds to match schools of the same level in the state.

[AuLukey]

I read the article about when they came to campus and have heard the "uproar" they have caused by saying such biased things about a school and a city they are more obviously biased against to begin with. One point that these "scholarly" gentlemen made was that UNCC should be focusing more on acquiring money to build new facilities for education rather than for entertainment... Well guess what. I have to say that Charlotte is by far the most under-construction-campus in the UNC system right now. Despite their enormous shortcomings in alumni and university system funding in comparison to Chapel Hill, ECU, and State, Charlotte still manages to outpace every other university in North Carolina in growth. If the school is forecast to hit 30,000 soon and up to 40,000 once the CRI campus is completed, then I feel that they already have their growth plan figured out. That, to me, doesn't seem like it is an issue that the campus should move to top priority because they have already established something that works very well for them there. Why fix something when it's not broken? Rather than using existing resources, as these educators implied we'd be doing, we'd actually find sources for new resources to fund the athletics program that otherwise would not be available for education (i.e. sponsorships, advertising space, & concessions.)

As for the student fee increase, it is a temporary method to help start the program. It doesn't mean that students a decade from now will still be paying that $300/semester extra (I doubt it will go away, it will just be diverted to something else.) Once the program finds mild success, sponsorships will come in and attendance will help pay for concessions and the student fees will not have to be as great. As was pointed out before, Charlotte is the largest metro in America to not have a Division 1 football program. Seems like that would be motivation enough for the city to help fix.

Speaking of student fee, not to belittle your point Raintree, but I don't think it is in the realm of responsibility for a university to provide transit to an entire city. The fact that Chapel Hill does that is actually really cool to me and I believe UNC-Charlotte is attempting to copy that model on a more local scale. They already provide free transit around both campuses now and are looking to expand the bus routes to the apartment complexes, retail, and businesses in the area. University City already has a well laid out transit system and has some of the highest ridership in Charlotte, so I doubt it would be in CATS best interests to let the university provide transit any further out than that.

The mere fact that those two esteemed professors came down here to even talk about football is ludicrous. Shouldn't they have come to talk about something relevant to their field? Of course they were going to preach academics, they don't specialize in sports or the student social environment. I wonder what the head football coach for UNC-CH would have said if he had come to speak right after them. Would he have pushed for stronger academics or would he explain the reasons why football is an American past-time played at colleges longer than there has been an organized professional football league in America? Seems like his opinion might have differed just a little. If college football wasn't successful in some manner (whether financially or culturally,) there would be no reason for it to still be around, and he wouldn't have his job. In fact, I wish that Charlotte would ask him to come speak now in light of what these Tarheels have said.

But, who's to say what is right? We'll just have to see in 2012...

Edited March 2, 2008 by aussie luke

[Raintree21]

I think my point was misintepreted. I believe the $300 fee is too much no matter how you look at it and for however short of a time period it may be for. Chapel Hill has been able to do a huge task (free transit for the majority of Orange County's residents) with a minimal fee. I don't see why when you combine a smaller student fee, alumni donations, university money, however much they can get out of the UNC system, and commercial donations or advertising rights, that they wouldn't be able to fund the program.

[RiverwoodCLT]

If football is bad for UNCC then it should be bad for UNC-Chapel Hill, NCSU, Western Carolina. NC Central, ASU

and any other school that has football.