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I think my point was misintepreted. I believe the $300 fee is too much no matter how you look at it and for however short of a time period it may be for. Chapel Hill has been able to do a huge task (free transit for the majority of Orange County's residents) with a minimal fee. I don't see why when you combine a smaller student fee, alumni donations, university money, however much they can get out of the UNC system, and commercial donations or advertising rights, that they wouldn't be able to fund the program.

There is a fundamental flaw in trying to compare the student fee component of Chapel Hill Transit with UNC-Charlotte's proposed football student fee. I have a good perspective as I was involved with Chapel Hill Transit 1973-1980, and paid my son's way through UNC-Charlotte 2001-2005 (He's back for a second degree at UNC-C, but paying his own way this time so I will ask him what he thinks about the student fees).

Chapel Hill Transit has historically been funded with heavy property tax support from Chapel Hill and Carrboro, state and federal assistance for operating and capital, a large allocation of funds from UNC-parking receipts, and some student fees. When the decision was made a few years ago to go free fare, the elimination of farebox receipts was funded from the $25 student fee, and a heavy infusion from University receipts, as the University realized it was cheaper to buy seats on buses than to try to build a large number of new parking decks and road expansion - this freed up land for buildings (yes, some more parking decks have been built too.) In the case of UNC-C football, the $300 fee (per semester or per year?) apparently has to cover most of the cost of the program.

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Tough loss on Friday. But an appearance in a bowl game so early on in the program’s history is a milestone in itself.

At least it’s not CHA

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I'm all in favor of UNC-C starting a football program, but the money to do this should come from private donors and student fees NOT the UNC system (aka the state taxpayers). Many states have laws in effect preventing college athletic depts being funded by taxpayer $$.

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If football is bad for UNCC then it should be bad for UNC-Chapel Hill, NCSU, Western Carolina. NC Central, ASU

and any other school that has football.

Well actually the average student in the USA these days falls far behind in academic achievement compared to most of the modern world (and even some 3rd world places) due to the fact that so much emphasis is placed on sports now and not academia. This is especially prevalent in many if not most high schools, but a number of universities have these issues too. UNCC does not need a football program and if they decided to take this route I see people that all of a sudden won't be able to attend there who otherwise would. (and those that do won't get as good an education)

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Well actually the average student in the USA these days falls far behind in academic achievement compared to most of the modern world (and even some 3rd world places) due to the fact that so much emphasis is placed on sports now and not academia.

Monsoon, I think it's safe to say you hate sports and don't want to see Football at UNCC. We get it.

I find this statement a little over the top, and would love to see some qualified information to back up such a charge.

Even Harvard has football, for God's sake.

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^And I didn't expect to find much open mindedness on the subject. If you are truly interested in an objective analysis of the education of Americans vs almost anywhere else, I suspect you know how to look it up yourself. I am not going to get into a battle of the links here but I will tell you that it is my experience in dealing with people (outside the people of this board) that people from Europe, the Middle East and Asia (where I have most of my non USA contacts) are far better educated on most matters than someone you might find in the US.

Aside from that, do you honestly think it is fair to ask someone wanting higher education to shell out $300 so that a few can play football?

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Aussie, Bill Friday has co-chaired the Knight Commission, which has sought for some time now(with varying degrees of success) to reform college athletics. Both he and C.D Spangler are former presidents of the UNC system, so I think both are qualified to speak. I get the feeling that if Bill Friday had his way, college athletics would vanish except for intramural sports.

That said, this Chapel Hill alum thinks that the University of Charlotte (I like that name) should have football. It will generate interest in the school and increase student loyalty. Increased student loyalty usually results in bigger donations from alums and not just to the football program. I also agree that the University of Charlotte has been screwed for way too long when it comes to state funding. Chapel Hill relies on state funding for less than 25% of its operating expenses- I think the current figure in the Alumni Review was quoted at 23.7%, or something like that. I'm not sure where the state is spending the rest of its money-might be interesting to find out. Charlotte needs a well-known, highly regarded research university and although the University of Charlotte has made great strides, it's not yet there. So I would support just about anything that would advance the mission of the campus on Hwy 49. :)

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^^^ I believe that Charlotte will have a well known research intensive institute in the next couple of decades. The Charlotte Research Institute on the 29 side of campus is growing and let's not forget the Biotech campus in Kannapolis on the far end of the MSA. I believe that if another college does not start up, these two institutes will grow to be recognized.

As for the world's population. I will say that there is better education in other parts of the world when looking at the industrialized countries in Europe and Asia. However, I think you let on that we are much further behind the vast majority of the world than we really are. I wouldn't say that by any means. While the US does have an extremely strong athletics focus in collegiate academia, not all students at every university are focused on athletics. Go onto Charlotte or Chapel Hill's campus and ask five students what the current record of the men's basketball team is. I bet maybe two of them could tell you with complete certainty. Not many students participate in sports enough that it could possibly interfere with their studies.

You have to remember that the people you are in contact with in other countries are probably not people from the lower class, but of the higher educated international business worker. Of course they are going to give the perception that their education is better. That's the very reason that they are who they are today. If you actually went to those countries and talked to people with lower educations, you would possibly get the same impression about their education levels as you have of America's. That said, countries like Japan that are very education-centric are proportionally going to be better educated. That's their very nature. However, they make sacrifices to get to that level of education as they are in school longer and have to work harder, thus hurting other aspects of their lives. The average American, by comparison, is more entertainment-centric. By nature we haven't been that focused on education since our very onset as a nation.

I don't think we are holding back students with athletics but instead allowing students, who may not otherwise be able to get into college, get an education that will serve them beyond their athletic career. Having a football program will not hold other students back. How much school-related work do I do on Saturdays? Slim to none. Therefore, attending a football game on Saturday and celebrating afterward in no way will hold back my education. Giving extra spots for scholarships in football and cheer leading (to offset Title IX requirements) will not hurt other students either as the school is going to grow by the thousands in the next few years while we're giving out maybe a hundred scholarships per year max because of the start of a football program. Let's say that the school grows by just 8,000 students by 2020. If we give away 100 scholarships, that's 1 scholarship per 80 students, I think that just those 8,000 students' athletic fees alone will pay those scholarships tenfold, thus still providing room for other types of scholarships to be handed out.

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A lot of attention on this board is going to two former presidents of the University of North Carolina (proper). So who are they? One is Bill Friday, its founder; before him we had the consolidated universities which I believe only included State, UNC, and UNCG (at the time the women

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^And I didn't expect to find much open mindedness on the subject. If you are truly interested in an objective analysis of the education of Americans vs almost anywhere else, I suspect you know how to look it up yourself. I am not going to get into a battle of the links here but I will tell you that it is my experience in dealing with people (outside the people of this board) that people from Europe, the Middle East and Asia (where I have most of my non USA contacts) are far better educated on most matters than someone you might find in the US.

Aside from that, do you honestly think it is fair to ask someone wanting higher education to shell out $300 so that a few can play football?

...and I think you may have missed my point entirely. First off, I don't buy the argument that people from Europe, the Middle East, and Asia are more educated on most matters than people in the US. It may shock you to hear this, but I know a few people outside the US as well. Take a trip down to Disney World and poll a few of the foreign tourists that visit our country, I think you'll find them ill-informed on many issues. Regardless, that's not really the point here.

You made a direct correlation between falling academic standards in our country and the support given to athletic programs. I find it hard to believe that any link between these two issues can be made, and I'd love to hear your theory as to how they are.

As for open-mindedness, I think most people that have posted in this thread, myself included, have stated that UNCC will survive and prosper with or without football. You, on the other hand, don't seem to give other's reasoning any thought or consideration at all. Not necessarily the definition of open-mindedness if you ask me.

I think it's a shame that for some reason the UNCC student's will bear the highest costs within the system if they wish to support football. If anything, it speaks more to the bias that the system has against the Charlotte campus than how damaging football can or would be. It sounds to me as if it is a clear case of UNCC being told to know it's place. Why is it OK for UNC-CH or NCST to have football and not UNCC? For those making the argument that football programs will take away from academic growth, I guess UNC-CH, Duke, and NCST are simply anomalies. I suppose to end that respected academic institutions such as Stanford, Michigan, Notre Dame, and UC-Berkeley must have also gotten really lucky not to suffer from the Football curse.

As Tom Sorenson in the Charlotte Observer replied to Spangler & Friday's meeting "Strong faculty leadership ensures that athletics stay relatively sane. If athletics directors ran our universities, they'd do crazy things such as give a first-year coach an extension and a $291,000 raise for going 4-8."

Touche.

Edited by rockhilljames
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Are you concerned enough to stop UNC Pembroke from getting a football program?

Bill Friday has no opinion? ("We have a good chance to stop this train before it leaves the station").

Wow. He sent his god-daughter to Charlotte.

I still don't see why UNC-CH's program shouldn't be disbanded, along with programs at all the other UNC schools.

I'm not sure, but I do believe UNC Charlotte was the 4th school in the Consolidated system.

This whole UNC system is a giant pork project, it seems to me (primarily benefiting you know who). Reform is imperative.

The argument re: the harm to academics doesn't hold water. If you don't count the RBC Center in the capital city, sports are not funded by the NC General Assembly. Yes, many other countries have better higher educational systems than us mainly English speaking, geographically challenged Americans. Has Oxford disbanded their rowing team?

TGIF, and not someone with a valid reason that Charlotte should be the sacrificial lamb, and forego any aspirations or attempts to give the university a well-rounded college experience (American style...no apologies for that).

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.....

You made a direct correlation between falling academic standards in our country and the support given to athletic programs. I find it hard to believe that any link between these two issues can be made, and I'd love to hear your theory as to how they are........

No I didn't make that correlation. I am all for athletic programs for students of which UNCC has many and if that is all that is needed then the school doesn't need to have a football team. Calling a University football team an "athletic program" given the focus on money and its benefits for just a few, is disingenuous at best and nothing but an attempt to distract from the fact that people are being asked to pay a heavy tax to build and outfit a team that can compete against similar excesses at other schools. It's this focus on football to the exclusion of almost all else in many schools that detracts from academics. If this was about students, they could form football teams without building expensive stadiums, coaches, etc.

Touche
You never answered my question, so I don't think so.
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Well actually the average student in the USA these days falls far behind in academic achievement compared to most of the modern world (and even some 3rd world places) due to the fact that so much emphasis is placed on sports now and not academia.

That sounds like an implied direct correlation between a schools focus on athletics and falling academic standards to me. If, as your reply suggest, you were merely speaking of football and not other sports in general, can you give me an example of a school who's academics is suffering due to the focus on the football program?

As to your direct question, yes I feel it is appropriate to raise student fees for the establishment of a football program. Providing that the majority of students support it. From what I've seen of the process so far, the school and athletic department have done a very good job making sure they understand the level of support before moving forward.

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There was an article in the paper today about the increase in the number of student applicants to our state universities. Chapel Hill, UNCC, and NCSTATE all had around a +7% increase. Not too shabby! However, App state had a 19% increase!!! I would bet money that increase was a direct result of FOOTBALL. Pure and simple. Their university went from being an obscure small state school to being mentioned in the national media overnight. Now who knows of the type of applicant that has now chosen to apply to app, but with the higher number of applicants, the school has the ability to raise the bar of its academic standards for admission (an application ,literally, of supply and demand in a non traditional sense . It's a win win situation for the school, student body, and alumni. Way to go App!

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There was an article in the paper today about the increase in the number of student applicants to our state universities. Chapel Hill, UNCC, and NCSTATE all had around a +7% increase. Not too shabby! However, App state had a 19% increase!!! I would bet money that increase was a direct result of FOOTBALL. Pure and simple. Their university went from being an obscure small state school to being mentioned in the national media overnight. Now who knows of the type of applicant that has now chosen to apply to app, but with the higher number of applicants, the school has the ability to raise the bar of its academic standards for admission (an application ,literally, of supply and demand in a non traditional sense . It's a win win situation for the school, student body, and alumni. Way to go App!

Appalachian was bursting at the seams already. I was there between 1978-1981 and the population went up by a third during those years. Even then they were turning away students, despite a very mediocre football team.

You might arrive at a large pool of students to choose from who are attracted to UNCC because of large investments in sports, namely football, but if you're going to do this, good luck attracting serious professors. I know of several professors at UNCC who are already a little disillusioned with low performing students. I know of two who can tell you horror stories of being told by coaches (at other universities) to 'take it easy' on their star players...as far as grades went.

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..... I would bet money that increase was a direct result of FOOTBALL. Pure and simple. .....
It might be pure and simple in App's case, I don't know.

I do know that UNCC went from 9500 students in the mid 80s to somewhere around 24,000 now without football and is now one of the largest Universities in the Carolinas. The school is barely 45 years old and is challenging institutions for enrollment that are centuries old. It is on track to become the largest University in the next 20 years. This was done without football. This subject is about UNCC next to the largest metro in the Carolinas and as a result serves a much different purpose than a small school such as App located in the remote northern mountains.

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You might arrive at a large pool of students to choose from who are attracted to UNCC because of large investments in sports, namely football, but if you're going to do this, good luck attracting serious professors. I know of several professors at UNCC who are already a little disillusioned with low performing students. I know of two who can tell you horror stories of being told by coaches (at other universities) to 'take it easy' on their star players...as far as grades went.

Ok so now we are assuming too much. Are you implying that serious professors only work for schools without football programs? I better write Harvard, Notre Dame, Chapel Hill, Miami, Michigan, Florida, etc etc etc. They must be missing out on some quality professors because of their football programs. Now, you need to understand that since the history of high school and college sports, coaches have almost always "looked out" for their players by talking to professors. Helping the academically-challenged skip by is the American way. That goes for any sport. So, while we're having football hold back our selection of professors, we better take a look at the effects of basketball, baseball, track & field, swimming, soccer, and softball teams too. Are they causing the same lower standards as we are implying football does? There are more games in baseball and basketball than in football, so then the players are going to be out of class more often. So it seems that these players would get more special consideration than the football players most of the year. March Madness in college basketball is just as popular as the College Bowls, so in no way is football the predominant source of evil in collegiate America. That is, if advertising the name of your school to rest of the world (including alumni, future applicants, and corporations willing to spend money to associate their name with your school) is an evil act.

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Ok so now we are assuming too much. Are you implying that serious professors only work for schools without football programs? I better write Harvard, Notre Dame, Chapel Hill, Miami, Michigan, Florida, etc etc etc. They must be missing out on some quality professors because of their football programs. Now, you need to understand that since the history of high school and college sports, coaches have almost always "looked out" for their players by talking to professors. Helping the academically-challenged skip by is the American way. That goes for any sport. So, while we're having football hold back our selection of professors, we better take a look at the effects of basketball, baseball, track & field, swimming, soccer, and softball teams too. Are they causing the same lower standards as we are implying football does? There are more games in baseball and basketball than in football, so then the players are going to be out of class more often. So it seems that these players would get more special consideration than the football players most of the year. March Madness in college basketball is just as popular as the College Bowls, so in no way is football the predominant source of evil in collegiate America. That is, if advertising the name of your school to rest of the world (including alumni, future applicants, and corporations willing to spend money to associate their name with your school) is an evil act.

Yes, Harvard has a football program, as well as other Ivy League schools. Were professors attracted to teach at those schools because of the football program? I doubt it.

By throwing out names like Miami, Notre Dame, Chapel Hill, Florida, etc. I assume you're will to put as much money as it takes to gain that kind of notoriety. Programs like theirs require not only millions more in dollars than we could afford, but a long-standing tradition in terms of a time frame.

I wrestled in High School, and actually won a state-wide competition. When I got to Appalachian ( a very good wrestling program) I opted on any scholarship in order to study. Nevertheless, I could not understand, even then, why football players were held in such high esteem. You would think they walked on water.

Support your under-recognized collegiate athletes!

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Well actually the average student in the USA these days falls far behind in academic achievement compared to most of the modern world (and even some 3rd world places) due to the fact that so much emphasis is placed on sports now and not academia. This is especially prevalent in many if not most high schools, but a number of universities have these issues too. UNCC does not need a football program and if they decided to take this route I see people that all of a sudden won't be able to attend there who otherwise would. (and those that do won't get as good an education)

I'm a student at Charlotte and I've heard from a number of international professors and international students (my girlfriend is from Poland and she has told me the same) that colleges in the USA are more difficult than those abroad. Our universities are much easier to get into than those found in Europe and Asia, but the actual cirriculum is a lot more demanding than that found elsewhere. I'm not arguing that academic standards in the US are not falling, particularly those in high schools (I did very little in high school and still managed a respectable GPA (3.9, however not on a 4.0 scale)) because they certainly are. It is an area of concern, however, I do not believe sports has played as large a role in this as other factors.

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"By throwing out names like Miami, Notre Dame, Chapel Hill, Florida, etc. I assume you're will to put as much money as it takes to gain that kind of notoriety. Programs like theirs require not only millions more in dollars than we could afford, but a long-standing tradition in terms of a time frame."

Again.

What about UNC Pembroke???? Do they have that kind of dough? Well, they're getting football. How do they do it?

(Hint: They're no threat to the Chapel Hill crowd, and they're from the correct part of the Old North State).

Charlotte, must, according to the rules, begin at a lower division than the "Big Boys" you reference.

Friday and Spangler appear to be a few french fries short of a Happy Meal.

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.....

Friday and Spangler appear to be a few french fries short of a Happy Meal.

What exactly have they done or said that would lead you to come to that conclusion? Rather than just call them names because you don't like what they said, why don't you tell us exactly why they are unqualified to speak up on this subject or any facts they gave that were wrong.
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First of all, let's stop pointing to Harvard and Chapel Hill as the comparison points for this theoretical UNCC football team. This will not be Harvard. It will be more like Florida International, UAB, or Middle Tennessee State. And I'm not saying that disparagingly, I'm saying it so we can be realistic from this point on about the level of prestige that will be associated with this program in the real world.

- Would you send your kid to Florida International on the basis of its football program?

- Given the choice, would you pursue a Ph.D. with the dream of teaching at FIU, due in part to its football program?

- If offered a full-ride scholarship at 10 schools, would FIU jump to the top of the list because of its football? For that matter, would football even factor into the equation at all considering the options laid out before you?

If you answered "yes" to any of these questions, PLEASE go to FIU in order to remove yourself from the North Carolina university system. The academically-focused student who takes your place will appreciate it.

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What exactly have they done or said that would lead you to come to that conclusion? Rather than just call them names because you don't like what they said, why don't you tell us exactly why they are unqualified to speak up on this subject or any facts they gave that were wrong.

I don't think they are "unqualified" but they were disingenuous, in that they feel Charlotte's program can be stopped, but existing programs can continue. They appear to want to protect Chapel Hill's turf (pardon the pun). Amongst all the fledgling programs, such as UNC Pembroke, Charlotte is the real threat, due to it's size and location in one of the top 25 media markets. Did they go to Robeson County to speak out against football at UNCP? Their efforts should instead be directed at ending the disparity in funding between UNC-CH and UNC Charlotte. No med or law school here, and most of the print journalists are Chapel Hill grads. The students voted to tax themselves (or in most cases, their parents). Even with higher athletic fees, it will cost more to attend the Triangle universities.

The UNC system allots soy burgers, not meat to Charlotte, in comparison with filet mignon for UNC-CH and prime rib for NCSU. Now Spangler and Friday want to take the football toy out of Charlotte's Happy Meal. Every other school gets it's toy and some meat, while Charlotte consistantly ranks at or near the bottom in per student funding allocations.

I know we won't change each other's mind. You say po-tay-toe, I say po-ta-toe, but I appreciate the chance to rant about unfair treatment of UNC Charlotte.

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Reducing this down to nursery rhymes kinda detracts from the message that I think you were trying to say in that it isn't fair that Friday and Spangler say that UNCC shouldn't have football because they don't have a problem with it at the other campuses and because UNCC is not equivalently funded by the state.

However the point they correctly make is that is the situation in NC and if UNCC takes on the burden of a football team, then there will be even less money available for non-football matters because the school will be caught in the position of constantly begging for money to support it. Adding a $300 football tax means that fees can't be added for something more relevant. There is nothing disingenuous about that as they both know that funding for UNCC, a state matter, isn't going to change except that if UNCC takes on the frivolous matter of football, then it is probably not as bad off as it claims when it comes to the state for other funding. If anyone doesn't understand that, then they are either being disingenuous or they need to take some more courses at school.

I will agree you on the happy meal analogy in that calling out Friday and Spangler on the fact they are not taking on UNC and NCSU on this matter is like a kid having a fit because there isn't a toy in their happy meal. What you are seeing is a kid that is being taught the wrong values.

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"By throwing out names like Miami, Notre Dame, Chapel Hill, Florida, etc. I assume you're will to put as much money as it takes to gain that kind of notoriety. Programs like theirs require not only millions more in dollars than we could afford, but a long-standing tradition in terms of a time frame."

Again.

What about UNC Pembroke???? Do they have that kind of dough? Well, they're getting football. How do they do it?

(Hint: They're no threat to the Chapel Hill crowd, and they're from the correct part of the Old North State).

I think this has more to do with UNC-P being a bit off the map as far as media and popular perception are concerned. I am opposed to an expensive new football program there as well, but to be perfectly honest I don't spend enough time thinking about Pembroke to get all riled up about it. Charlotte, on the other hand, is the flagship university in one of the nation's largest metro areas. It's at the surface of public attention. And it is in desperate need of better facilities and programs if it wants to keep pace with even its in-state rivals, let alone national competitors. A football team at this stage in its history positively screams "priority problem", especially considering tiny institutions like Queens and Wingate are getting the edge on UNC-Charlotte by moving forward with graduate programs in law and pharmacy.

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Fortyniner, you made some excellent points. Charlotte isn't receiving the funding it needs to gain a better academic reputation. However, athletic money does not come from the state but from sponsorships, students fees, ticket sales, and concessions. The 49er's basketball team is not funded by the state in anyway including scholarships. Therefore, funding for sports should not have any sort of impact on the money received from the state. These men should be looking at what is really holding UNCC back, the state. Then again, this IS Charlotte so it is natural for anything in its city limits to be held back by the state.

Monsoon, I personally don't believe that the $300 in student fees will hold back the introduction of any additional fees the university needs for things such as academics, transportation, and safety. The state only allows a certain percentage increase each year for such needs. I believe the number is somewhere around 7% increase per year. Charlotte was one of a handful of the universities in the state that increased their fees by this much last year. However, this increase cap does not include funding for athletics. Therefore, whether the school implements the $300 fee shouldn't have an effect on whether or not the university pursues that same 7% increase again this year. Athletics doesn't have the ability to pull itself out of these increases and, as was stated before, Charlotte is still cheaper overall than the Triangle schools by a fair margin even with the $300 fee. Someday it may be caught up and Charlotte will lose its "affordability" draw in comparison to those schools. But I honestly don't really look at universities by which one is a few hundred more expensive than the other when considering where I want to get my education.

There was an article on this in the O awhile back but I believe they have now buried it in their archives (a.k.a. pay for something that used to be free section.)

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