UNC Charlotte Football

[fortyniner]

Actually, UNC Charlotte is not considered a branch of the UNC system, but an entity into its own, which happens to be part of the greater UNC system. It is NOT Chapel Hill's "little brother." (At least that's the way it was presented when UNC Charlotte became the 4th member of the UNC system).

If UNC Charlotte is for the Charlotte metro, why does another metro 130-150 miles away have 2 schools in the UNC system? (Technically, Wake is now a separate MSA from Durham and Orange counties, but this wasn't always the case. Anyway, they market themselves together as the "Triangle"). Wouldn't it be more economical for the state to only have one large campus in that area?

Monsoon isn't the only one who wasn't wealthy. I had student loans, which I repaid, and had an on-campus part time job to help pay for my degree.

Are you telling me that Robeson County is richer than Mecklenburg and metro Charlotte? How can we all just sit idly by and allow those poor people in Pembroke to waste their money on football??

Well, they can cross I-95 and go to ECU if they want football. Never mind, they won't be able to live in Pembroke or Lumberton and will have to pay for on-campus housing at ECU (that is if the football team hasn't hogged all the dorm space there).

Is there any difference in college and pro sports? Is the atmosphere the same? I, having attended UNC Charlotte, where there is no football, wouldn't know. Anyone ever gone to a football school? I would appreciate your feedback.

Start up costs DO exist, and are NOT cheap. My point is the biggest expenses would not even come into play for at least 5 years, and by then we should have more students sharing the costs, more and wealthier older alumni sharing the costs.

Of course our football program will be on a different level from that of the Tar Heels and Wolf Pack (for one thing it will start at the FCS level), and the thinking that the program/stadium/attendence will forever be far less significant than the Triangle schools is reminiscent of the thinking that I-485 should be North of Hwy. 51, and Charlotte will never grow to the southern limits of Mecklenburg County. Old Rip (Van Winkle) would be proud of how far our thinking has progressed. (I'm not promoting the benefits of sprawl, just being realistic about the mind set of our local developers and civic leaders).

[rockhilljames]

As to your question regarding atmosphere, I LOVE my Panthers, and love going to NFL games....but as a proud graduate of USC, and as a season ticket holder, there's no comparing the atmosphere between a college football game and the NFL. College wins hands-down in my opinion. The passion of the fans, the intensity of the tailgating, the NOISE and sheer love of the game is amplified for a college game.

Of course, USC is in the SEC and consistently puts 80,000 screaming fans in the place. I think that to really answer that question you should look to several smaller schools in the area for comparison. The game-day atmosphere at Furman and App State are probably similar to what Charlotte would have, and I have heard that both are great.

Imagine Charlotte competing in the Big East or the ACC in about a decade. Basketball, Baseball, Football, all sports would be elevated on a national scale that Charlotte can't even consider right now.

[dgreco]

As to your question regarding atmosphere, I LOVE my Panthers, and love going to NFL games....but as a proud graduate of USC, and as a season ticket holder, there's no comparing the atmosphere between a college football game and the NFL. College wins hands-down in my opinion. The passion of the fans, the intensity of the tailgating, the NOISE and sheer love of the game is amplified for a college game.

Of course, USC is in the SEC and consistently puts 80,000 screaming fans in the place. I think that to really answer that question you should look to several smaller schools in the area for comparison. The game-day atmosphere at Furman and App State are probably similar to what Charlotte would have, and I have heard that both are great.

Imagine Charlotte competing in the Big East or the ACC in about a decade. Basketball, Baseball, Football, all sports would be elevated on a national scale that Charlotte can't even consider right now.

The biggest draw is the Big East, I do not think the ACC is a good move or possible. I see the Big East splitting and you have football and non-football schools.

The Big East will look like so:

Cincy

UConn

Louisville

Rutgers

Pitt

'Cuse

WVU

USF

Charlotte

ECU

UCF

Memphis

with the addition of Charlotte, UCF, possibly ECU and Memphis. This brings them to the 12 that every conference wants, it connects them from the Northeast down to South Florida. Instead of it being just USF down there. They also pick up big markets in Orlando, Charlotte, and Memphis.

I go to a small school (small DI-FCS) and the atmosphere is great and it actually brings students together. People love athletics even if the team isn't great. You will never be able to appreciate school until you have a real homecoming with football, beer, and old friends. This is what college is about... I know some people want the cheapest education, but most people go to college for the atmosphere and the experience they can take out of it. Look at the topic in the main forums, everyone cites that as the most memorable and important part of college.

Edited March 8, 2008 by dgreco

[Spartan]

I just think that as large as UNCC is now, and considering how much they are planing to grow, a football program is going to be a part of its future. I don't see UNCC being one of the largest universities in North Carolina and not having football. It won't have the history of the other schools, but it could easily pull a USF. Most importantly, the alumni want it, so IMO that is one of the most important factors to consider. UNCC athletics seems to have a pretty decent following around here as it is, so presumably it would only get better with a more popular sport.

[Miesian Corners]

Sorry if I missed it, but is no one else amazed at the hypocrisy of CD Spangler? How many millions hase this Charlottean given to UNC-CH as opposed to UNC-C? Where is the CD Spangler, Jr building?

It's a bit disingenuous for a billionaire who has given nothing to the university in his hometown to complain about the state of academics there. And if you missed it, the CD Spangler Jr building is in Chapel Hill.

[Justadude]

It's a bit disingenuous for a billionaire who has given nothing to the university in his hometown to complain about the state of academics there. And if you missed it, the CD Spangler Jr building is in Chapel Hill.

Spangler is an alum of Chapel Hill, so naturally his biggest donations go to his alma mater (which is the case with 99% of college alumni). He has done extensive charity work in Charlotte, and was one of those who stood by CMS when it just about fell apart during the 1970s. He's seen the public school network from every angle, having served on the state BoE and served as president of the entire UNC system. He knows more than all of us combined about the inner workings of the public ed system, and especially about the money flow that will (or will not) be generated by football.

Likewise, Bill Friday was a co-founder of the Knight Commission, which puts him in the rare position of actually having done something to clean up NCAA athletics. Again, there are only a handful of people in the state who hold the same level of expertise in this subject as Friday.

Two of the three former UNC Presidents have just gone out of their way to send an explicit warning to Charlotte, especially the UNC-C faculty, that a multi-hundred-million-dollar football program will spell economic and academic disaster for the city's flagship university. That's a huge red flag, a reality check that says "people who see the whole picture do not support this plan". It's time for UNC-Charlotte to put its inferiority complex aside and understand that it's mortgaging the future of its academic standing in order to be a farm team for the NFL. That's not how you gain respect in higher academics, at least not among people who can tell the difference between quality education and a 4-year frat party.

[Miesian Corners]

^I am well aware of all of the above, but if Mr Spangler truly cared about the future of UNC Charlotte, he'd toss a few million our way. Put your money where your mouth is.

[Justadude]

^ But Charlotte's not his alma mater, so I doubt he has ever been approached for a significant donation to UNC-C.

Frankly, I don't see any purpose at all to this slant on his character. Opinions do not cost a million dollars, so there is no reason to insist that he shell out a bunch of money in order to speak to faculty. The man has the highest qualifications possible in the UNC system... that alone justifies his presence in this debate.

Edited March 10, 2008 by Justadude

[Miesian Corners]

^ But Charlotte's not his alma mater, so I doubt he has ever been approached for a significant donation to UNC-C.

Frankly, I don't see any purpose at all to this slant on his character. Opinions do not cost a million dollars, so there is no reason to insist that he shell out a bunch of money in order to speak to faculty. The man has the highest qualifications possible in the UNC system... that alone justifies his presence in this debate.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one. It is far too easy for the former president of UNC Chapel Hill to make a blanket statement about the quality of academics at UNC Charlotte. I don't care one way or another about football at my alma mater, but he has angered not only me with his intrustion into what he feels is best for a campus he has nothing to do with. He (and Friday) has (unwittingly) pulled together administration, faculty, and students by saying what he did. I know of many professors who think football is a bad idea, but after his remarks, they are very much on board with getting a program going. He has pissed off a campus that has for far too long been given the shaft by the UNC Board of Trustees. We very well might need to thank him for bringing us (UNC Charlotte) together as a cohesive unit for the first time ever.

[Justadude]

^ With all respect, that post makes no sense to me. Both Spangler and Friday are in a position to comment on UNC-C academics because they are qualified to do so. It is an indisputable fact that Charlotte is not where it needs to be academically. Serving the largest city in the Carolinas, it has no schools for medicine or law... an underfunded and underdeveloped central campus... is not listed on the Princeton Review and is ranked poorly by US News... and is completely overshadowed as a research facilty by in-state competition.

I hate to come across as a "basher", but UNC-C alumni need to square with these facts when deciding what direction they want the University to take. Do you want to be a below-average university with a below-average football team, or an above-average university with no football team? That is the simple choice that is before the University when it decides what to do with several hundred million dollars that are either going toward academics or sports.

It's appalling to me that any professor would willingly cut the resources available to his students because a former system president had the audacity to say what I have said above, in more diplomatic terms. What professor could possibly believe that a few football games ought to take precedence over the academic mission of his department?

[Rufus]

i wouldnt put much into those college rankings, primarily since UNC-C does not send up to date information to them. The school chose a few years ago to not put much emphasis on college rankings, because all they are is petty rankings that are based on popularity.

And, the school is, like you said, underfunded and underdeveloped, which in turn makes it very hard to create a law school, medical school, etc., especially when the school is the next last school in state funding, even though it is the third largest school.

[1979Heel]

Miesian, the building named for the Spanglers (they reluctantly accepted) is in Chapel Hill because that's where the UNC system offices are located, in addition to the Chapel Hill campus, not because of a nefarious plot to once again screw UNCC.

The Spanglers gave $25 million last year to endow professorships across the entire system, not just at Chapel Hill. It's my understanding that there was at least 1 professorship for each campus. Further, they insisted that their names not appear on any of thesse professorships.

The Spanglers are a treasure to the entire state. I think C.D. is wrong about football at UNCC, but that doesn't make him an ogre. He's an accomplished person who obviously loves Charlotte, where he lives, and North Carolina, so please don't let your anger about the lack of needed funding at UNCC color your views of him and his contributions.

[Justadude]

i wouldnt put much into those college rankings, primarily since UNC-C does not send up to date information to them. The school chose a few years ago to not put much emphasis on college rankings, because all they are is petty rankings that are based on popularity.

While I agree that rankings are a poor method for comparing colleges, especially considering the built-in flaws to US News' methodology, they are still the only semi-objective way to compare similar institutions. And every indication is that UNC-C has a lot of ground to make up on its in-state peers, and is completely off the map nationally.

This is why the university has an uphill battle with admissions and fundraising. Sports programs are almost completely irrelevant to college choices and perceptions, especially at schools who are perennial doormats. It's ludicrous to think that the University has the resources to produce a competitive Big East football team but can't afford a law school. It's going to be one or the other... one will sell lots of t-shirts, the other will attract serious students who will one day be donating millions to their alma mater.

And, the school is, like you said, underfunded and underdeveloped, which in turn makes it very hard to create a law school, medical school, etc., especially when the school is the next last school in state funding, even though it is the third largest school.

Which is why I find it almost morbidly fascinating that students, faculty and alumni are rallying en masse to spend nine digits on a sports program but seem pretty darn apathetic when it comes to increased funding for little details like academic programs, faculty salaries and campus development. This is a case of misplaced priorities worthy of a Jerry Reese lawsuit.

[Miesian Corners]

^ With all respect, that post makes no sense to me. Both Spangler and Friday are in a position to comment on UNC-C academics because they are qualified to do so. It is an indisputable fact that Charlotte is not where it needs to be academically. Serving the largest city in the Carolinas, it has no schools for medicine or law... an underfunded and underdeveloped central campus... is not listed on the Princeton Review and is ranked poorly by US News... and is completely overshadowed as a research facilty by in-state competition.

And whose fault is it that UNC Charlotte doesn't have these things you mention? Whose fault is it that UNCC consistently ranks lowest per student spending in the UNC System? Certainly no one at MY school! Academics are going to suffer because of football?!! No, academics are going to suffer because of an obvious and blantant shoulder shrug by the the UNC Board of Trustees.

Again, if either of these men are so concerned, they should show it by getting the powers that be in Chapel Hill (Erskine Bowles) that UNCC needs a medical school, a law school, etc instead of insulting the 30,000 administrators, faculty and students of MY University. Spangler telling a faculty member that his son should go to UNC Chapel Hill, NC State, ECU, UNC Pembroke, or ASU if he wants football is ridiculous! And if my education is so subpar, what exactly do you think should be done to alleviate this fact? Not having a football program is suddenly going to get more money for academics? With all due respect to your post, that makes no sense to me.

[Justadude]

^ As stated above, it's a zero-sum game. You are either soliciting a hundred million dollars for football or for academics... it can't go toward both. By depleting your philanthropic resources with requests for athletic money, UNC-C would be sending a very loud-and-clear message that its academics take a backseat to its athletics. There is not one single university in the entire nation who has improved its academic profile with that kind of strategy -- schools like Harvard, Chapel Hill and Stanford were elite academic institutions LONG before they had D-I football teams.

And yes, I completely agree that there should be an uprising of support for UNC-C so it can get the funding it deserves from the state. Unfortunately, the community is too busy trying to sell out to athletic interests to have anything to do with such a movement. I would be absolutely amazed if, the next time representatives from Charlotte petition for more funding, the first question isn't "But you're spending the money you DO have on frivolous athletic projects?".

Bear in mind that many on this board have taken offense to the "Go to another school for football" proposition, they are effectively giving the "go to another school" option to any student who is serious about pursuing medicine or law. Imagine what $2-300,000,000 of private donations could do to enlarge the academic mission of the university.

[1979Heel]

I might also add with regard to C.D. Spangler that he's as invested in Charlotte (the city), both emotionally and financially, as he is in UNC Chapel Hill. He's a huge stockholder in Bank of America and a successful. highly regarded UNCC only works to the benefit of Bank of America. (By the way, Joe Price, Bank of America CFO, is a UNCC grad.) So the idea that Spangler doesn't care about UNCC seems wrong to me. In fact, I think he likely cares a lot.

[dgreco]

^ As stated above, it's a zero-sum game. You are either soliciting a hundred million dollars for football or for academics... it can't go toward both. By depleting your philanthropic resources with requests for athletic money, UNC-C would be sending a very loud-and-clear message that its academics take a backseat to its athletics. There is not one single university in the entire nation who has improved its academic profile with that kind of strategy -- schools like Harvard, Chapel Hill and Stanford were elite academic institutions LONG before they had D-I football teams.

And yes, I completely agree that there should be an uprising of support for UNC-C so it can get the funding it deserves from the state. Unfortunately, the community is too busy trying to sell out to athletic interests to have anything to do with such a movement. I would be absolutely amazed if, the next time representatives from Charlotte petition for more funding, the first question isn't "But you're spending the money you DO have on frivolous athletic projects?".

Bear in mind that many on this board have taken offense to the "Go to another school for football" proposition, they are effectively giving the "go to another school" option to any student who is serious about pursuing medicine or law. Imagine what $2-300,000,000 of private donations could do to enlarge the academic mission of the university.

Many state schools have increased their rep by adding athletics... UCLA, Florida, UConn, Georgia, Boston College, SC etc... all these schools with popular sports bring more students and can become more selective. Ask about the 700+ schools who sponsor or are about to sponsor football, if it was so bad you wouldn't have all these institutions sponsoring these sports and if they werent important and just law schools were you wouldnt have any student-athletes.

[redjeep77]

Just to set things straight here....the ivy leagues are not D-1 in football. They are D-1AA non-scholarship (like Davidson, and D-III). D-1AA is split between the scholarship schools and the non-scholarships schools. The scholarship schools are significantly better than the non-scholarship ones (at football, anyway).

[monsoon]

^I am well aware of all of the above, but if Mr Spangler truly cared about the future of UNC Charlotte, he'd toss a few million our way. Put your money where your mouth is.

OK so this really has nothing to do with football. Lets get back on topic.

[Justadude]

Many state schools have increased their rep by adding athletics... UCLA, Florida, UConn, Georgia, Boston College, SC etc... all these schools with popular sports bring more students and can become more selective. Ask about the 700+ schools who sponsor or are about to sponsor football, if it was so bad you wouldn't have all these institutions sponsoring these sports and if they werent important and just law schools were you wouldnt have any student-athletes.

Each of the schools you named are the flagship university in their respective state system, and are ranked respectively at #25, #49, #64, #59, #35, and #112 in the nation among all colleges including private schools. They have a "rep" unto themselves, and would continue to thrive even if athletics were wiped off the map; they have big-time athletics because they are big-time schools, not the other way around. By comparison, UNC-C is not only unranked on this list, but is actually three "tiers" lower in the architecture of the rankings. This is yet another case of using a measure of success that is totally unattainable for Charlotte athletics, comparable to using the London Tube as an example of what could be done with Charlotte's transit system if we just spent a whole lot of money on it.

In any case, let's be honest about what we mean when we say "increased their rep": what we really mean is "I've heard of these colleges because they're on Sportscenter". The catch is, no student worth recruiting makes college decisions based on Sportscenter. At the end of the day, UNC-C's appeal is going to be based 99% on programs, resources and quality of instruction -- those are the factors that drive students toward an institution. In particular, competitive students (the ones that are capable of raising a school's profile across the board) are going to be comparing UNC-C to its regional peers in terms of what it offers academically... because that is what they are paying for, after all. But don't take my word for it -- call a college admissions office and ask them first-hand what students report as their primary criteria.

So once again, we arrive at the unavoidable conclusion that the UNC-C community is consciously choosing to sacrifice its academic programs in favor of having D-I football, which will do absolutely nothing for university enrollment or any other measure of success other than merchandise sales... and occasionally losing to a football-factory university on national TV. I would expect much, much better priorities at a university full of educated and sensible people.

[Miesian Corners]

OK so this really has nothing to do with football. Lets get back on topic.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but when Mr Spangler made it an either/or proposition when speaking to the UNC Charlotte faculty, it has everything to do with it. Regardless, I'm not going to change anyone's mind and they're not going to change mine. We're just going in circles on this thread.

[dgreco]

Each of the schools you named are the flagship university in their respective state system, and are ranked respectively at #25, #49, #64, #59, #35, and #112 in the nation among all colleges including private schools. They have a "rep" unto themselves, and would continue to thrive even if athletics were wiped off the map; they have big-time athletics because they are big-time schools, not the other way around. By comparison, UNC-C is not only unranked on this list, but is actually three "tiers" lower in the architecture of the rankings. This is yet another case of using a measure of success that is totally unattainable for Charlotte athletics, comparable to using the London Tube as an example of what could be done with Charlotte's transit system if we just spent a whole lot of money on it.

In any case, let's be honest about what we mean when we say "increased their rep": what we really mean is "I've heard of these colleges because they're on Sportscenter". The catch is, no student worth recruiting makes college decisions based on Sportscenter. At the end of the day, UNC-C's appeal is going to be based 99% on programs, resources and quality of instruction -- those are the factors that drive students toward an institution. In particular, competitive students (the ones that are capable of raising a school's profile across the board) are going to be comparing UNC-C to its regional peers in terms of what it offers academically... because that is what they are paying for, after all. But don't take my word for it -- call a college admissions office and ask them first-hand what students report as their primary criteria.

So once again, we arrive at the unavoidable conclusion that the UNC-C community is consciously choosing to sacrifice its academic programs in favor of having D-I football, which will do absolutely nothing for university enrollment or any other measure of success other than merchandise sales... and occasionally losing to a football-factory university on national TV. I would expect much, much better priorities at a university full of educated and sensible people.

But they do that is the catch. Look at applications that go up in a year when a team like George Mason goes far in the tourney. More applicants means more selective it is a cycle that starts with athletics. I am sorry but most 17 or 18 years pick schools because of athletics and exposure not because of the possible law program. In the real world the rankings matter very little and in the end its recognition and besides the Ivies and Patriot league and a Few other good schools like Johns Hopkins Standford etc... the school doesnt matter... The rankings are subjective and not objective so it is horrible to go by. Go to a company and say I graduated from UNC-Chapel Hill or UNC-Charlotte they will nto care about the difference if they are outside the carolinas or maybe the southeast. Nationally that stuff doesnt matter, the only thing they will know is UNC CH is more known then UNCC and not because of academics but because they played Duke on sportscenter.

[monsoon]

^This is your opinion but there there no proof that what you say is the case. And plenty of proof that what you say is wrong in UNCC's case. Since you are not local to the Carolinas I guess that you might have missed the part that UNCC has grown to be one of the largest schools in the state over it's very short history "without" football. They routinely have to turn down requests for housing on the school because the demand far outstrips the capacity. So there are still plenty of 18 years olds, despite your assertions, that value the education that a college gives over the fact there might be a football team at the place.

In regards to getting a job from there, I graduated from UNCC with and electrical engineering degree, and I can tell you for a fact that nobody I interviewed with thought one second about if the school had a football team or not. They wanted to know my grades, what I had studied and the details of my co-op experience. And having worked for a while on the other side where we recruited students the fact their school might have had a football team made absolutely no difference at all if they got an offer or not. We wanted to know if they were able to do the work position we were trying to fill and football was irrelevant.

[dgreco]

^This is your opinion but there there no proof that what you say is the case. And plenty of proof that what you say is wrong in UNCC's case. Since you are not local to the Carolinas I guess that you might have missed the part that UNCC has grown to be one of the largest schools in the state over it's very short history "without" football. They routinely have to turn down requests for housing on the school because the demand far outstrips the capacity. So there are still plenty of 18 years olds, despite your assertions, that value the education that a college gives over the fact there might be a football team at the place.

In regards to getting a job from there, I graduated from UNCC with and electrical engineering degree, and I can tell you for a fact that nobody I interviewed with thought one second about if the school had a football team or not. They wanted to know my grades, what I had studied and the details of my co-op experience. And having worked for a while on the other side where we recruited students the fact their school might have had a football team made absolutely no difference at all if they got an offer or not. We wanted to know if they were able to do the work position we were trying to fill and football was irrelevant.

not saying sports matter on the job, but school recognition is based on sports. Companies hear of UNC-CH because of athletics, not because they know exactly about the athletic programs. No job should hire because of anything besides experience and I never made that assumption. The actual applicant has to show that they are qualified, but the school hardly ever matters, its what you do at the school. Do people in NC know about all the New England schools? No, they may know Providence College because they are in teh Big East and its recognition, but that school may not be as good as Bowdein in Maine, but people would not know that because the academics aren't first recognition but the athletics are. So what you do at the school matters more, but it always helps to go to a shcool people have heard of. I went to Bryant for my undergrad and no one out of New England heard it and its in the top 15 in all the pricenton review / US NEws rankings. You know when people know the school? When they apply for DI and join the NEC and all of a sudden when I apply for a job in NJ they now know Bryant and know more about the school and its history because they are relevant to the average person.

What you do at the school matters, but the name recognition is on athletics you can not deny it. It is proven that athletic success equates to more applications and more selectivity. It is not just a idea it is proven and works for many schools. In less than 7 years BC went from a 64% acceptance rate down to 20% and one of the elite schools in teh country. Believe it or not its not because they have all the best programs in the country, its because they moved to the ACC recruit students nationally now and do well in athletics. How can a kid apply to UNC-C if they never heard of it? Sure local kids apply and you get a few kids from each state, but national recognition is done through sports regardless of how you feel. I never heard of UNC-C until they joined the A-10, why? because many A-10 schools are in the northeast so now it is a new base for them to have recognition.

[monsoon]

not saying sports matter on the job, but school recognition is based on sports. ....

You just said that and I can tell you that UNCC has no problem with recognition. When the day comes when they are not turning down students because there is no room on the campus you might have something there. But you are incorrectly applying your theory to a specific school that proves your assertions wrong. If you decide to go to school for these reasons, I feel that you are going to end up being disappointed by the results, as are the 50% of freshmen that end up dropping out or changing schools, but it's that has nothing to do with whether football should be placed at UNCC or not. (which is the purpose of this topic)