American Boomtown

[Charlotteman]

aussie luke, Jacksonville/Duval County consolidation was put up for public vote and passed that way.

Prior to the vote, it was agreed that any existing town could decline consolidation and remain a separate entity, except for police and other services that were to "go countywide".

As a result, the citizens of Baldwin, Jacksonville Beach, Neptune Beach and Atlantic Beach in Duval County voted down consolidation. To this day they remain separate towns, but are still protected by the Jax sheriffs office.

Baldwin is actually a "landlocked" town, i.e. completely surrounded on all sides by Jacksonville.

From what I saw, from living in Jax, is that consolidation was a godsend to the city....helped it move forward amazingly fast.

[AuLukey]

aussie luke, Jacksonville/Duval County consolidation was put up for public vote and passed that way.

Prior to the vote, it was agreed that any existing town could decline consolidation and remain a separate entity, except for police and other services that were to "go countywide".

As a result, the citizens of Baldwin, Jacksonville Beach, Neptune Beach and Atlantic Beach in Duval County voted down consolidation. To this day they remain separate towns, but are still protected by the Jax sheriffs office.

Baldwin is actually a "landlocked" town, i.e. completely surrounded on all sides by Jacksonville.

From what I saw, from living in Jax, is that consolidation was a godsend to the city....helped it move forward amazingly fast.

Yea, i lived there more than a decade ago but was too young to care about such things. I had gotten confused on here knowing about Jacksonville and Neptune Beaches. I had assumed they were just districts though. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[MZT]

In Norh Carolina, cities can annex land in an ajoining county. Forsyth and Davidson have grumbled for years about High Point's intrusion into their counties, but it still goes forward. The counties can adopt sparse land use patterns to try and discourage annexation, though.

But I don't see Charlotte doing much annexing outside of Mecklenburg. There are so many satellite towns already along the Union county border. South Carolina is a nonstarter. Concord and Harrisburg will block to the northeast. Belmont and Mount Holly block to the west. Only the extreme eastern side near hwy 27 into Stanly county might conceivably be annexed.

[AuLukey]

In Norh Carolina, cities can annex land in an ajoining county. Forsyth and Davidson have grumbled for years about High Point's intrusion into their counties, but it still goes forward. The counties can adopt sparse land use patterns to try and discourage annexation, though.

But I don't see Charlotte doing much annexing outside of Mecklenburg. There are so many satellite towns already along the Union county border. South Carolina is a nonstarter. Concord and Harrisburg will block to the northeast. Belmont and Mount Holly block to the west. Only the extreme eastern side near hwy 27 into Stanly county might conceivably be annexed.

I like how you put it. It makes it sound like Charlotte is an invading army.

[krazeeboi]

What's the largest municipality in NC that exists in 2 counties? The only one that comes to mind is Kannapolis (Cabarrus/Rowan counties).

[monsoon]

Both Raleigh and Durham cross county lines. Durham has an agreement for part of Wake and likewise, Raleigh has an agreement for part of Durham county. Raleigh would certainly be the largest in the state.

Locally, Davidson has annexed into Iredell. I believe there is currently a fight going on between Mint Hill/Matthews and Indian trail over annexation. I am not sure where that ended up.

Kannapolis has been eyeballing the part of Mecklenburg that belongs to Huntersville. I've remember hearing about a pre-emptive annexation by Huntersville to keep this from happening. Ironically Kannapolis is not bound by the EJT agreement between the 7 municipalities in Mecklenburg.

[verge]

True, but the City of Atlanta had been plagued by "flight" and continual out-migration that has kept its population stagnant, more than an inability to annex. Atlanta forumers claim this trend is beginning to reverse and its density and population are rising....this remains to be seen. Charlotte has had a different dynamic, with very little flight. I think our density will steadily increase along with population, and who knows where the equilibruim will end up. Just look around...there's infill all over the place.

The census bureau has reported (estimated) that the city of Atlanta has grown by about 50,000 in the last 5 years... bringing it to 470,000... I don't know how good an indication of relative growth that city populations are... since city limits are relatively arbitrary (Dallas, for instance has a huge city area and a very large population)... Atlanta has also invited a large region of South Fulton County to join the city... if this happens Atlanta would grow by 50,000 in a single day--- a most 'artificial' indication of growth or relative city health...

MSAs and CSAs continue to be the best way to compare relative size (if nothing else)... for what that may be worth...

[krazeeboi]

Thanks for the info metro.

[AuLukey]

Kannapolis has been eyeballing the part of Mecklenburg that belongs to Huntersville. I've remember hearing about a pre-emptive annexation by Huntersville to keep this from happening. Ironically Kannapolis is not bound by the EJT agreement between the 7 municipalities in Mecklenburg.

I don't remember hearing anything about this agreement. What is EJT? I know that Concord and Kannapolis drew a line of possible development and annexation in Cabarrus along davidson highway.

[monsoon]

That was in reference to the Sphere of Influence agreement of which the map is posted above. Basically in the 1960s the 7 municipalities divided up the county amongst themselves for future annexations. This was called the sphere of influence. Charlotte was free to annex in its "sphere", Huntersville in it's sphere, and so forth. All of the municipalites agreed like Stalin and Hitler that as long as it was agreed that everything on this side of the line was mine, then I agree that everything on your side of the line is yours. Unlike Stalin & Hitler, the agreement has never been broken, though former Mayor Vinroot, suggested doing so during his last term. He argued the towns in the North had too much terrority under their control. Needless to say that didn't go over too well in the North. Vinroot has sundered himself several times in running for Governer, so I think he is done politically.

In the late 1990's the NC Legislature voted to give the municipalities zoning control over the areas within their sphere which they had not yet annexed. This ended Mecklenburg county's control over zoning decisions in the un-incorporated parts of Mecklenburg, and has led to better growth. This is because it allowed town planners to control growth before it gets out of hand. For example, the mess at Exit 25 was created by Mecklenburg irresponsible zoning then Huntersville ended up inheriting it. East Charlotte is another example. This has happened all over the county. This territory is known as Extra Jurisdictional Territory or EJT. Because it corresponds to the Sphere of Influence I incorrectly referred to it as the EJT agreement.

Also interest on the Charlotte website:

In addition, the City of Charlotte has annexation agreements with the towns of Weddington, Stallings, Marvin, Concord, and Harrisburg (all outside of Mecklenburg County) under which the City has agreed not to annex property in Union and Cabarrus Counties (where these towns are located). Those municipalities have also agreed not to annex property in Mecklenburg County within Charlotte's sphere of influence.

So it looks as if CLT won't be doing annexations into Cabarrus and Union. It's bound by Huntersville in the North, SC in the South which leaves Gaston County as the only other possible place to expand, but I am not sure if they can jump the river since this might not be considered contiguious land.

[Richhamleigh, DC]

i've lived in charlotte all my life minus a few quests here and there... and i've always been aware of steady growth. but, over the past couple of years and even in the last year i've noticed an acceleration. i kinda thought that my noticing was just a symptom of being addicted to this website... then this past weekend i went to the penguin's annual bb-q. the place was packed and i hardly knew anyone. i've lived in the plaza-midwood area for awhile now and it used to be i couldn't go anywhere in the area without bumping into people i know. so, what are some other unscientific ways you measure our fast growth?

I don't think the acceleration is just a myth. I think growing cities go through different paces of growth and I agree with others that I get the sense that Charlotte has crossed a kind of threshold.

Rapid growth begets more growth...and other "booming" cities have experienced similar periods - NYC had its first growth-related growth bump in the 1910's; LA's was in the 1950's; Atlanta, Dallas, and Houston in the 1970's; Washington, DC's first was in the 1980's...

This period of growth feeding on growth - kind of creating its own micro-economy - isn't sustainable by itself and is often hurt when the main industry in town faces a downturn (think of the great "busts" in Denver, Dallas, Houston, and elsewhere) - but as cities get bigger their growth, in purely numerical terms, also grows and sometime exponentially (even if the percentages are steady or fall).

I think Charlotte has crossed some sort of invisible threshold from mid-sized city to big-city. I think it's what we're all sensing...

[Richhamleigh, DC]

As with the growth of Huntersville, having a standard set and a cap of 50k people severely limits the county. Huntersville is noticeably the largest of the meck towns yet only now has a population of 35k. I wish they were more supportive of denser residential areas in order to help with the county's growth.

There is no "official" cap of 50K in Huntersville. Huntersville's planning and design standards absolutely support dense development - the pieces of which, on a truly urban level with nearly all the components of truly urban living are happening in places like Huntersville's Rosedale, Vermillion, and Birkdale neighborhoods. (I argue that Rosedale comes closest to a "real" new urban place b/c of the ability of residents to walk to grocery stores...but I digress...).

[monsoon]

There is no "official" cap of 50K in Huntersville.

That is the stated goal of the city's Mayor.

[MZT]

Cities can annex "islands" that are not contiguous with the main metro. I think Durham had a few of these in the 1990s.

So it's plausible that Charlotte could cross into Gaston county, but I think Belmont and Mount Holly would beat them to it.

We could probably make a whole other thread about odd development patterns. Check out a map of Anaheim CA sometime. The city managed to "squeeze" through a gap between some other towns, and establish a "barbell" effect via a second locus of development.

[Rufus]

monsoon i really am having a hard time understanding how a town can just let it grow and then stop a 50k. that seems slightly impossible for a town to say who can live in their city once they surpass 50k. that number sounds like it is a desirable population for the town, but the mayor has no control over how many people can live in one place. the city government cannot just force people out of city amenities just because they are over the 50k mark, it wouldn't seem fair or legal.

[voyager12]

Has Charlotte ever contemplated an Urban Growth Boundary similar to Portland Oregon's? Its not a complete success but it has helped conserve some of the open space surrounding the city. Charleston has one that is geared toward protecting the sea islands. Our area may be to far gone to institute a red line now. I wish there could be an equivalent to what we have in my hometown area: The Beaufort County Open Land Trust or the county could partner with The Nature Conservancy and target important tracts to preserve. I know we have the River Conservancy but that is not enough. Of course these programs have all been taxpayer supported through bond referendums and our area does not have a good track record of support in that regard

[monsoon]

monsoon i really am having a hard time understanding how a town can just let it grow and then stop a 50k. that seems slightly impossible for a town to say who can live in their city once they surpass 50k. that number sounds like it is a desirable population for the town, but the mayor has no control over how many people can live in one place. the city government cannot just force people out of city amenities just because they are over the 50k mark, it wouldn't seem fair or legal.

The mayor and city council absolutely have control over what subdivisions get approved in the city and its EJT. I will point out that Huntersville's population grew from 3000 in 1990 to close 35,000 by 1998 (there was a special census that year so this number is well known) Since then however, after city had the first 18 moritorium on new development on growth in Mecklenburg and the subsequent land use policies that were adopted after that, population growth in Huntersville has slowed down considerably and still less than 35,000. That is a remarkable change when you consider the growth rate in the 1990s.

If developers want to build in Huntersville, they are faced with rather tough choices on open land preservation, lot size, house design, sidewalks, etc and other restrictions that keep them away. They would rather go strip land in other jusidictions where they can make more profit. It is a plan that appears to be working and one that should be adopted throughout the rest of the county. (except in Davidson where it is even more tough)

[monsoon]

Has Charlotte ever contemplated an Urban Growth Boundary similar to Portland Oregon's?

This is exactly what was done in Huntersville. See this link for more details.

[Richhamleigh, DC]

i really am having a hard time understanding how a town can just let it grow and then stop a 50k. that seems slightly impossible for a town to say who can live in their city once they surpass 50k. that number sounds like it is a desirable population for the town, but the mayor has no control over how many people can live in one place. the city government cannot just force people out of city amenities just because they are over the 50k mark, it wouldn't seem fair or legal.

The town can set goals - like an "optimal" maximum population - and then set policies to attain the goal. The Town of Huntersville can "plan" to serve 50K but as long as a project meets the standards of the zoning code it's pretty hard to avoid approving a project and so, it's impossible - especially as the TOH approaches 50K to suddenly stop development and create a cap. That said, there are natural - physical - limits to how much land can be developed and whether or not the Town will extend services and these things can combine to stabilize a population. The TOH also has a "rural" land use designation which limits density in the town most environmentally-sensitive areas but the Boards can - and have - allowed portions of the "Rural" district to be rezoned for higher density development under a very specific set of criteria and conditions.

[voyager12]

The issues facing Huntersville and other suburban towns in the Charlotte metro are very similar to where I used to live in Mount Pleasant, SC. Its a very affluent bedroom community of Charleston. The town of Mt P. instituted what was considered then a novel cap on housing permits, one of the first in the state. They got a lot of heat and threatened lawsuits from development interests but its still enforced. Of course all the developers had to do is move slightly up 17 N out of Mt P. town limits into much more lax Charleston County and they are gobbling land through Awendaw/ Mcville and creating massive sprawl there. Which still creates very bad residual congestion for Mt Pleasant! The same will happen up here and its so frustrating! What is the point of towns such as Huntersville implementing controls when adjoining municipalities are going pell mell in the other directon? The spillover is impossbile to contain