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Sugar Tit sticks it to Greer


Spartan

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The Spartanburg County Council has annexed the Sugar Tit area from the Greer CPW back to the Spartanburg Sanitary Sewer District. This is intended to stop Greer from providing sewer service to the new school, thus ending this territorial debate. But it will most likely result in a lawsuit from Greer.

Herald-Journal article

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This would be difficult to do, but it would primarily depend on how upset the Greer RESIDENTS (as opposed to the politicians, city staff, etc.) were over Sburg County's actions. Getting 66% approval in a referendum would not be do-able otherwise. BTW, Greenville County residents would only have to approve this by simply majority. Only those afffected in the transfer would have to vote 66% in favor.

I wonder what exact areas would attempt to tranfer counties? The existing Greer residents and the entire "Golden Box" or something less than that?

I don't look for this to actually happen, but you never know.

EDIT: I just realized, this would likely include the BWM plant, since Greer's limits completely surround both the plant and GSP airport. Talk about a high stakes game of hardball. This could get interesting.

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This would be difficult to do, but it would primarily depend on how upset the Greer RESIDENTS (as opposed to the politicians, city staff, etc.) were over Sburg County's actions. Getting 66% approval in a referendum would not be do-able otherwise. BTW, Greenville County residents would only have to approve this by simply majority. Only those afffected in the transfer would have to vote 66% in favor.

I wonder what exact areas would attempt to tranfer counties? The existing Greer residents and the entire "Golden Box" or something less than that?

I don't look for this to actually happen, but you never know.

EDIT: I just realized, this would likely include the BWM plant, since Greer's limits completely surround both the plant and GSP airport. Talk about a high stakes game of hardball. This could get interesting.

According to the article it would not include BMW but I do think GSP lies inside this area.

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According to the article it would not include BMW but I do think GSP lies inside this area.

I don't understand how it couldn't. If Greer's City Limits completely surround the plant, and all of Greer were to leave S'burg for G'ville, how could the plant not be included? Cities can have doughnut holes, but I Very seriously doubt a county could.

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I don't understand how it couldn't. If Greer's City Limits completely surround the plant, and all of Greer were to leave S'burg for G'ville, how could the plant not be included? Cities can have doughnut holes, but I Very seriously doubt a county could.

Interesting point. The article definitely said it would stay, but that makes no sense. We all know that Spartanburg County would NEVER let this happen.

There are 5,000 people who would become Greenville County residents, if this took place. This could really help or maybe hurt the link that brings Greenville and Spartanburg into one MSA. Possibly less people would be leaving Spartanburg County to work in Greenville OR maybe it would be that more Greenville County residents would then be commuting to Spartanburg County... Is there any way to know where the Spartanburg County Greer residents currently work?

I see one problem with this though. It'd be for Greenville County Schools. Over population of schools is already taking place. Enough children for one new school per year are being added to the district's total every year. With an extra influx of people, who knows how big of a strain this could be...

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Regarding BMW, here's what the SHJ article says...

While often associated with Greer, BMW, one of the Upstate's largest employers, lies in unincorporated Spartanburg County and would not be affected by a secession move.

Regarding the schools, nothing would really change. There is a portion of Spartanburg County referred to as "H-9" (map grid coords??) that encompasses eastern Greer. These students already attend Greenville County Schools. There's also a small section of Spartanburg County just south of I-85 bounded by Brockman-McClimmon Road that also attends Greenville Schools. The rest of the area in Spartanburg, including much of the Abner Creek area is part of Spartanburg District Five.

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Regarding BMW, here's what the SHJ article says...

Regarding the schools, nothing would really change. There is a portion of Spartanburg County referred to as "H-9" (map grid coords??) that encompasses eastern Greer. These students already attend Greenville County Schools. There's also a small section of Spartanburg County just south of I-85 bounded by Brockman-McClimmon Road that also attends Greenville Schools. The rest of the area in Spartanburg, including much of the Abner Creek area is part of Spartanburg District Five.

I did not know, but did suspect that that was the case with the school district. School districts do sometimes 'switch out' students like that. Would the boundaries for the H-9 be used as the boundaries for the COunty annexation?

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At first glance, that would be logical. I'm actually looking at GIS overlays of Spartanburg county as I type this. H-9 doesn't appear to follow many natural boundaries, such as roads, rivers, etc. In fact, the boundaries don't even line up with real estate parcels. I doubt that Greer would split someone's property just to follow that particular line.

What H-9 clearly does NOT include is GSP and BMW.

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just want to make a couple of quick points:

!) Their is no need to consider the schools since county boundaries and school district boundaries are totally unrelated, nothing would change there. Most of those effected are already in the Greenville County School District.

2)I believe the vote for secession would easily win in Greer. Even without the current disrespect, many of those who live on the Spartanburg County side have long wished they were in Greenville County. For many, a phone call to Spartanburg is long distance, while Greenville is local. That doesn't make for easy accessibility for county service.

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just want to make a couple of quick points:

2)I believe the vote for secession would easily win in Greer. Even without the current disrespect, many of those who live on the Spartanburg County side have long wished they were in Greenville County. For many, a phone call to Spartanburg is long distance, while Greenville is local. That doesn't make for easy accessibility for county service.

Interesting point. I'm not sure that the Telephone provider would be under any obligation to change things on their end though. Are there other reasons why the S'burg's might want to leave?

I wonder if Gville County taxes would be lower than S'burg's. That could have a big impact, if they were.

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Interesting point. I'm not sure that the Telephone provider would be under any obligation to change things on their end though. Are there other reasons why the S'burg's might want to leave?

I wonder if Gville County taxes would be lower than S'burg's. That could have a big impact, if they were.

I have been told by one friend in the area that indeed, taxes would be lower. But I'm not sure about that. He might actually be referring to a direct comparison of Spartanburg County taxes Vs. Greenville County taxes and that would have included the host of special service districts that people are taxed for in Spartanburg County. Of course, if you live on the Spartanburg County side of Greer, you have already been relieved of service district millage.

The main issues I have heard from friends in the area (over the years and often before the sewer controversy) is the lack of services they actually receive from the county. The western side of Spartanburg County has long felt neglected. One friend said, "All they ever built here is the landfill. and that's because nobody else wanted it!"

An example I was reminded of that happened about fifteen years ago was when Spartanburg County was asked to chip in when the new library was being built in Greer..After all, the library had always served all the citizens, not just those who lived on the Greenville County side. I'm not sure of the details but I do know that a lot of folks were left with negative feelings.

Remember, there's more to the Spartanburg County side of Greer than just the infamous "golden box."

By the way, I didn't mean to insinuate that Spartanburg County is at fault for the long distance phone service. I gave that as an example of why many people would find it more convenient to be in Greenville County. They also naturally feel more connected to Greenville due to the local phone service.

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There are several things to note here.

1- Spartanburg County Council DID screw up. They are in a leadership position and should have used more objectivity in their move, and just let the istuation play out between Greer and Reidville. That would have been fine. Their unprecedented actions have lead to a clear partialitly and choosing of sides. The County Council should not have done that. A neutral roll would have been much more beneficial.

2-This is just a bluff. It will take a lot of political will to make something like secession happen, and the odds are that if they did start the process, Spartanburg County would realize their mistake and try to work with Greer.

3- Greer's extremely stringy/web-like boundary would make it difficult to determine where the actual boundary would go. They can't very well include the unincorporated parts of the county (which includes BMW and GSP), because the CITY of Greer wants to seceed. This could mean that the Couny line would match the Greer city limits, which would be highly confusing.

My general thoughts are that Spartanburg's County Council should not have changed the rules. They need to learn to work with Greer, because like it or not, they are becoming an ever larger player in the Upstate. I don't like the fact that Spartanburg County has so many other more important problems that could be focused on, but they choose this one issue that is really not that important to light a fire over.

A compromise could have been easily reached, but I don't perceive that anyone tried. Reidville and Greer should determine which annexation was legal, and leave it at that. Greer should respect the communities wishes and provide some sort of variance so that they don't have to be annexed. That way Greer still gets to keep its sewer investment and the Sugar Tit community will be satisfied.

I also think that Greer should respect the fact that it CHOSE to annex into SPARTANBURG County. They should realize that is the literal middleman, they will have to learn to work with Spartanburg too.

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There are several things to note here.

1- Spartanburg County Council DID screw up. They are in a leadership position and should have used more objectivity in their move, and just let the istuation play out between Greer and Reidville. That would have been fine. Their unprecedented actions have lead to a clear partialitly and choosing of sides. The County Council should not have done that. A neutral roll would have been much more beneficial.

2-This is just a bluff. It will take a lot of political will to make something like secession happen, and the odds are that if they did start the process, Spartanburg County would realize their mistake and try to work with Greer.

3- Greer's extremely stringy/web-like boundary would make it difficult to determine where the actual boundary would go. They can't very well include the unincorporated parts of the county (which includes BMW and GSP), because the CITY of Greer wants to seceed. This could mean that the Couny line would match the Greer city limits, which would be highly confusing.

My general thoughts are that Spartanburg's County Council should not have changed the rules. They need to learn to work with Greer, because like it or not, they are becoming an ever larger player in the Upstate. I don't like the fact that Spartanburg County has so many other more important problems that could be focused on, but they choose this one issue that is really not that important to light a fire over.

A compromise could have been easily reached, but I don't perceive that anyone tried. Reidville and Greer should determine which annexation was legal, and leave it at that. Greer should respect the communities wishes and provide some sort of variance so that they don't have to be annexed. That way Greer still gets to keep its sewer investment and the Sugar Tit community will be satisfied.

I also think that Greer should respect the fact that it CHOSE to annex into SPARTANBURG County. They should realize that is the literal middleman, they will have to learn to work with Spartanburg too.

Excellent post. I agreed with nearly all of it. I don't think Greer should make an exception to it's policy though. Once you set a precedence like that, everyone will want one.

This could indeed be just a bluff, or 'chess move' if you will. But, then again, if the Greer residents feel they would benefit, what is to stop them from persuing it?

Other than it's powers of persausion, Spartanburg is powerless to stop it, and it only takes 10% of the affected residents to get it on the ballot.

Also, there is nothing to stop GSP or BMW from being included, except the political fallout or ill-will it would create. The lines can be drawn anyway the petitioners want. The biggest hurdle is the 66% vote in the affected area.

So that leaves the question, do the RESIDENTS involved feel strongly enough and in uninamity enough to pass it? Also, are Greer's leaders willing to strain regional relations to push it that far?

If Spartanburg is smart, they will try to smooth things over. It may be a 'bluff' move, but sometimes things can take on a life of their own. This could be the impotus to organize this desire into reality.

As to the question of whether Gville County would support it, I don't see why not. Greenville has nothing to lose, and everything to gain. To my knowledge, and I know of several examples, an accepting county has never turned down a opportunity to annex from another county. Only a simple majority is required, and historical is is not even close. Only a PR campaign that convinced Gvillians that this was 'unfair' or 'wrong' would possibly stand in the way, IMO, on the Gville side of this.

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Also, there is nothing to stop GSP or BMW from being included, except the political fallout or ill-will it would create. The lines can be drawn anyway the petitioners want. The biggest hurdle is the 66% vote in the affected area.

Including GSP and BMW would be tantamount to another annexation attempt.

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Including GSP and BMW would be tantamount to another annexation attempt.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'another'. The only requirement I am aware of is that 10% of the voters in the designated area have to sign the petition.

However the lines are drawn, there is no way to include all of the Greer city limits and not include BWM, because the plant is a doughnut hole in Greer's limits. There is no requirement to ONLY include the Greer City limits either. The areas near the city limits but not in them, could be included as well. There is also no requirement to take ALL of Greer's Spartanburg territory, which would allow BMW to be excluded.

Most likely if it gets that far, the lines would be based on natural boundaries, school attendance lines or some combination of those. Of course the proponents will seek to draw the lines in such a way that it would receive the required 66% approval.

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Another, in that the areas Greer is currently attempting to annex are very much south of the GSP-BMW area. This would be in addition to those areas, as far as annexation is concerned.

If GSP-BMW are not in the city now and Greer pulls them out of Spartanburg, I doubt they would become unincorporated areas of Greenville County. It would be a de facto annexation.

I seriously doubt Spartanburg would let those areas (and they tax revenues they generate) go without a fight. I do believe this is posturing on the part of Greer.

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Another, in that the areas Greer is currently attempting to annex are very much south of the GSP-BMW area. This would be in addition to those areas, as far as annexation is concerned.

If GSP-BMW are not in the city now and Greer pulls them out of Spartanburg, I doubt they would become unincorporated areas of Greenville County. It would be a de facto annexation.

I seriously doubt Spartanburg would let those areas (and they tax revenues they generate) go without a fight. I do believe this is posturing on the part of Greer.

The areas Greer is attempting to annex (into it's CITY LIMITS) are south of GSP/BMW, but that is a separate issue. The article stated that ALL of Greer that is in Spartanburg would leave for Greenville. To do that would involve areas well NORTH of GSP/BMW, as well as areas SOUTH of it.

County Annexation is a separate issue, and County Annexation does not have to follow city limits at all. Greer is seeking the COUNTY annexation, because if that area were no longer part of Spartanburg County, Sburg County Council would no longer have a say in the sewer issue.

Also, even if the area in question were to leave for Greenville County, in the future, Greer could annex into Sburg again, as long as state statutes were followed. County Lines and City Limits are fully independent of each other.

If BMW were included in the County Annexation, it would not also be annexed to Greer. It would simply change from being in unincorporated Spartanburg to unincorporated Greenvillle.

Because losing BMW would mean millions of lost taxes to Sburg, they would indeed be opposed to it, but legally they couldn't stop it. However, the damage to regional cooperation might be enough for Greer to simply leave out BMW from the County annexation.

I agree about the posturing aspect. But what is to stop it, if the affected residents wanted to punish Sburg and/or they just think things would be better in Greenville (for whatever reasons). For that reason, Sburg County Council should negotiate a settlement to the sewer issue. Losing Greer to Greenville County might not be a sure thing, but the downfall if it did happen is just to great.

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Spartan, you have made some excellent points. Are you aware that three (or four) compromises were indeed presented to County Council. These compromise proposals had been worked out jointly by Greer CPW and SSSD. Council turned down all of them ... so much for the opinions of the professionals, huh?! Council's action was an example of politics at it worst.

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