Nashville International Airport Development thread

[monsoon]

The profit is in filling up direct flights.

The profit is in filling up planes and the hub is a very efficient way to do this for a large airline. I do think the airlines overbuilt capacity in the 80s and 90s and as a result had to close down some hubs. Likewise, USAir made a pretty good profit last year and they are a hub airline.

Jetblue, and Airtran operate using a hub system. You can look at their route map for that. Southwest is not a full service airline and only flies to a few dozen cities so they can afford to run a point to piont service. But try to fly them from say Nashville to Charlotte and you are out of luck. They are now at a difficult place because it becomes ever more difficult to add new cities which is why you don't see them expanding that much.

[facilities man]

The profit is in filling up planes and the hub is a very efficient way to do this for a large airline. I do think the airlines overbuilt capacity in the 80s and 90s and as a result had to close down some hubs. Likewise, USAir made a pretty good profit last year and they are a hub airline.

Jetblue, and Airtran operate using a hub system. You can look at their route map for that. Southwest is not a full service airline and only flies to a few dozen cities so they can afford to run a point to piont service. But try to fly them from say Nashville to Charlotte and you are out of luck. They are now at a difficult place because it becomes ever more difficult to add new cities which is why you don't see them expanding that much.

If Southwest being in a difficult place means profitable as opposed to in and out of bankruptcy i.e. AA. I'll take Southwests position anyday. It's harder to be profitable flying 1/3 full planes from cities like Nashville, Jacksonville, Birmigham, etc... to cities like Charlotte and then filling it up almost full to procede to a city such as Philadelphia or Boston. It is easier to be profitable when you have one plane almost full on a direct flight from city A to city B, whatever city that may be. You offer cheaper tickets as well which helps fill the planes up too. You may not be able to offer service in smaller markets but thats just the way the market works. Southwest is currently in about 70 markets.

[Lexy]

And out of those 70 markets are six to ten large operations, including Nashville. You'll see SWA go north and south of the border before long. Even their CEO has pointed out that that is the way of the future for them.

[uptownliving]

Southwest has no choice but to expand if they want to survive as an airline...and even Southwest really operates focus cities...or mini-hubs in places such as Las Vegas and Phoenix. The only reason that Southwest has recently made a profit is due solely to their fuel hedging which runs out this year.

Southwest has already picked off all the low hanging fruit on the LCC tree. You will see them now go into congested large airports that they swore 5 years ago they would never enter. Recent examples are Philly ,Washington-Dulles, and Denver. Southwest has a good amount of new planes on order and they have to fly them places to make money.

Also watch Southwest get rid of their "Cattle Call" boarding system soon and start doing seat reservations.

[Lexy]

Ahh, the reservation techinigue wasn't exactly a success in San Diego. It still needs work and the loyal PAX still haven't warmed up to it. But the main reason they have entered larger, more mainline airports isn't just because they are in a corner and have nowhere to go. It isn't quite that simple, but not quite that hard to understand either. It involves many different reasons, one being what you said as far as locations are concerned. Others being a competitive willingness to compete directly with their competition, like here in Nashville for example. They have over 90 operations a day here and that drawfs any other operation in size. The same may be said soon in places like Philly and Denver. While I doubt they will have that many operations in either place. Nashville is one of their "Hubs" or "Focus Cities" and by that fact alone, secures a number of future destinations for the southeast in general.

For the record, I have had several Southwest employees tell me on numerous occasions that the "Cattle Call" works quite well in most airports. And that it's the newer passengers who are more accustomed to the pampered service of American or Northwest that complain about it the most. Personally, who really cares if you get to where you want to go cheep, directly, and safely you know? If it ain't broke, don't fix it kinda thing.

Edited October 24, 2006 by Lexy

[uptownliving]

In the past Southwest didn't really compete with anyone. They created a whole new market of passengers that didn't exist before. Well my point was that Southwest has just about tapped out that new market creation in the USA. Now if Southwest wants to survive they have to compete with the other airlines for the same passengers. The markets they will be entering now already have LCC service from other airlines. What puts Southwest at a disadvantage in these new markets they go into is a few things:

1. Their costs are not the lowest...in fact Southwest's operational costs are now on the high side, but at the same time their employee moral is very high too.

2. Southwest only operates 1 type of airplane. I would be willing to bet you will see them buy one of the new E-Jets in the coming years so that they can compete in some of the smaller markets they don't serve today.

3. Their amenity level is considered to be low especially when compared with jetBlue. People would be willing to pay a premium for a jetBlue flight over a similar Southwest flight.

These are things that Southwest has to deal with. I think you will see Southwest change and morph over the next couple of years...and they will more closely resemble a hub and spoke airline than the point to point airline they want you to think they are today.

[BrandonTO416]

Do any of you know why it will take 6 years to perform this rennovation? I have been reading information about the project, and it just doesn't seem like it should take 6 years to implement all these changes.

[ATLBrain]

That seems excessive to build a food court.

[BrandonTO416]

It seems reasonable for me that this could be done in one year and put on bond to be paid in coming years with low fees. For $50 million, you could have 9 million passengers a year pay a $5 fee per flight for one year and raise $45 million. It wouldn't take years, you could pay it off within 2 years time at that rate, interest included.

Three years seems to be stretching a project that builds a food court, a redesigned security center, and other upgrades like carpeting and what-not.

But six years I think is asinine. You can build a new airport from the ground up in less time.

Edited October 24, 2006 by heckles

[Lexy]

I have no idea. Oh BTW, here is the new service on Delta form here...

From an email: "On November 6, Delta will start scheduled MD-90 service to and from SLC."

Currently, no MD-90 flies into or out of here. So this will be cool.

[Lexy]

In the past Southwest didn't really compete with anyone. They created a whole new market of passengers that didn't exist before. Well my point was that Southwest has just about tapped out that new market creation in the USA. Now if Southwest wants to survive they have to compete with the other airlines for the same passengers. The markets they will be entering now already have LCC service from other airlines. What puts Southwest at a disadvantage in these new markets they go into is a few things:

1. Their costs are not the lowest...in fact Southwest's operational costs are now on the high side, but at the same time their employee moral is very high too.

2. Southwest only operates 1 type of airplane. I would be willing to bet you will see them buy one of the new E-Jets in the coming years so that they can compete in some of the smaller markets they don't serve today.

3. Their amenity level is considered to be low especially when compared with jetBlue. People would be willing to pay a premium for a jetBlue flight over a similar Southwest flight.

These are things that Southwest has to deal with. I think you will see Southwest change and morph over the next couple of years...and they will more closely resemble a hub and spoke airline than the point to point airline they want you to think they are today.

Sounds like you beleive all the nay sayers over at airliners.net too. LOL!!!! Buying a different type of jet just isn't going to happen. You talk about controlling cost, how does having to train people, certify (pilots), and maintain two totally different types of jets save you money??? LOL!!! 737's all the way for them and certainly no regional service. Don't believe all the "rumors" cause that just isn't their business model to buy into E-Jets and start hubs. LMAO!!!! Never has been, and very unlikely it ever will.

Please tell me why an airline who's business model actually turns a profit for them would go to a model that has proven time and time again to bankrupt airlines in the long run??? "Since were making money, lets just do like Delta and hub everything and outsource regional service so we can go under!!!" LOL!! I just don't understand the logic in that. If it works now for them, chances are it will work in the future, sans a few minor changes here and there. And BTW, CEO Herbert Kelleher has stated on more than one occasion that regional jets and regional service will not become, at any point, a part of their business strategy.

Edited October 24, 2006 by Lexy

[northernbizzkit1]

Sounds like you beleive all the nay sayers over at airliners.net too. LOL!!!! Buying a different type of jet just isn't going to happen. You talk about controlling cost, how does having to train people, certify (pilots), and maintain two totally different types of jets save you money??? LOL!!! 737's all the way for them and certainly no regional service. Don't believe all the "rumors" cause that just isn't their business model to buy into E-Jets and start hubs. LMAO!!!! Never has been, and very unlikely it ever will.

I agree with Lexy (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) on this. If Southwest starts buying E-Jets, it basically loses its strategy. Maintenence costs are so low due to the all 737 fleet. I've heard about a possible purchase of E-jets, but I doubt it will happen. I can only see more winglets in the future to give those 737s greater distance!

[Lexy]

I agree with Lexy (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) on this. If Southwest starts buying E-Jets, it basically loses its strategy. Maintenence costs are so low due to the all 737 fleet. I've heard about a possible purchase of E-jets, but I doubt it will happen. I can only see more winglets in the future to give those 737s greater distance!

Well we have reached a middle ground. LOL!!! Glad we agree on something NB.

[northernbizzkit1]

Well we have reached a middle ground. LOL!!! Glad we agree on something NB.

Haha same. They should take a picture of this

[rocky top buzz]

1. Their costs are not the lowest...in fact Southwest's operational costs are now on the high side, but at the same time their employee moral is very high too.

2. Southwest only operates 1 type of airplane. I would be willing to bet you will see them buy one of the new E-Jets in the coming years so that they can compete in some of the smaller markets they don't serve today.

3. Their amenity level is considered to be low especially when compared with jetBlue. People would be willing to pay a premium for a jetBlue flight over a similar Southwest flight.

I'm not even going to touch number 2, as I think that's already been resolved

As for number 3, the amenity level, that sounds correct. I have never flown SWA, but from what I understand, there is no first class? Compare that to JetBlue which is supposedly all first class? Has anyone here flown jetblue to support that statement?

And would anyone support the statement that flying on SWA means flying on planes where you are cramped in and feel like the plane hasn't been updated in 20 years?

If that's the case, we in Nashville should be hoping for expanded JetBlue operations, not SWA.

(of course, as long as I have family working for Delta, that's the only airline I really need to stay here!)

[jcoop]

As for number 3, the amenity level, that sounds correct. I have never flown SWA, but from what I understand, there is no first class? Compare that to JetBlue which is supposedly all first class? Has anyone here flown jetblue to support that statement?

And would anyone support the statement that flying on SWA means flying on planes where you are cramped in and feel like the plane hasn't been updated in 20 years?

If that's the case, we in Nashville should be hoping for expanded JetBlue operations, not SWA.

I've never flown jetblue so I don't know about that, but the feeling of being cramped in and being in a plane that hasn't been updated in 20 years....?

I remember maybe one SWA plane in the past couple years (probably around 15 flights for me) that felt old...otherwise, nice new leather seats, always seems like plenty of room because I'm never on a small jet to make a short flight, and my service has never been short of amazing.

If you want first class, no personality from employees, and the same thing you can get with any other airline, stay away from SWA. If you want what really matters, low rates, friendly service etc...then go with SWA...obviously I'm biased because I just love SWA haha...

For what it's worth, I strayed to Northwest and had horrible service from ticket counter to flight attendants, and then flew AA and had baggage problems (realize this is possible with anyone). Sorry for the rant....just my opinion.

[Lexy]

Well, the interior of their 73's are really no different than those on American and Delta for the record. Seating capacity is still around the same depending on the model numbers. So I dount it feels like riding on a school bus if that's what you mean. But what do you expect as far as amenities are concerned when you can fly to some places for as cheap as $69 one way??? For that kind of bargain, I doubt you'll get the red carpet treatment. But by golly you'll see the difference when you open upyour wallet at your destination. JetBlue sin't likely to expand service here but to their other focus cities and hub(s). I doubt we'll see a large expansion of them here unless they can get more gates, and that just isn't going to happen. We'll see them expand, but on a grand scale I doubt it. At least right now anyways.

HAHA! American a baggage trouble are best when used together! LOL!!!! Most of their 737's, Southwest, are only 10 years old or less. They are still taking delivery on 737-700's around one every month or so. So they have one of the youngest fleets in service here in the states. Right up there with Frontier and JetBlue.

Edited October 25, 2006 by Lexy

[jcoop]

oh for the record, round trip week of thanksgiving...just booked it yesterday...$170 round trip. You just cannot beat it.

[Lexy]

Busiest travel week of the year, and you are flying round trip to.........for $170. Unbeatable!

Edited October 25, 2006 by Lexy

[uptownliving]

I am not a SWA naysayer. I think they are a great airline. All I am doing is repeating what the executives that actually run the airline are doing and saying. The SWA executives are well aware that SWA has not turned an operational profit in over a year. The only thing that is saving them right now is their fuel hedges. Meanwhile airlines like USAirways are raking in $100s of millions of dollars in profits and have very little fuel hedged. The SWA executives are well aware that SWA can't keep doing the same thing it has been doing, otherwise they will be heading for bankruptcy themselves. That is why the SWA executives are looking at all options:

-They in fact have been looking at E-jets. Which for the record arn't regional jets...unless of course you consider a DC-9 to be a regional jet too.

-They have been looking at reserved seating

-They have been looking at expanding to large congested airports that were off the table before.

-They are looking at international flights, and are spending the money to upgrade their computer systems to handle that.

If SWA wants to stick around for the long term then they are going to have to morph and change so that they can make a profit. The executives that run the airline know this are well aware of this and are working overtime to get some of these changes instituted so that this airline will be making a profit when the fuel hedges run out.

[ATLBrain]

Maybe someday, BNA will be a SWA hub. That just doesn't sound right.

Lexy, heard anything else about Frontier's growth plans? Are there any?

[uptownliving]

hehe, well BNA is already a SWA focus city... so making it a hub someday is not out of the question.

SWA current hubs are Las Vegas, Phoenix, and Chicago-Midway.

Focus cities are Tampa, Orlando, Nashville, Houston, Los Angeles, Oakland, and Baltimore.

Now if SWA was doing purely point to point, purely O&D traffic...then why do they have more service at Phoenix than at Los Angeles and Philly combined???

[titanhog]

Personally, I don't like flying SWA. I utterly despise the cattle call.

They used to be the cheap way to fly, but everywhere I've flown the past 3-4 years, I've been able to get cheaper fares on another airline. I mean everywhere...no exception. So...they don't hold the same weight with me that they did a few years back.

[facilities man]

Personally, I don't like flying SWA. I utterly despise the cattle call.

They used to be the cheap way to fly, but everywhere I've flown the past 3-4 years, I've been able to get cheaper fares on another airline. I mean everywhere...no exception. So...they don't hold the same weight with me that they did a few years back.

This is why I like SWA. In every market they go into they've driven down prices. When they first come to a new market their flights are the cheapest, then competition takes over and you start find flights as cheap or cheaper with other carriers. Competition is great.

[titanhog]

This is why I like SWA. In every market they go into they've driven down prices. When they first come to a new market their flights are the cheapest, then competition takes over and you start find flights as cheap or cheaper with other carriers. Competition is great.

If that's the reason I've been getting cheaper flights on all the other airlines, then more power to SWA!!