Is NWA being 'milked' by the rest of the state?

[CentralArkansas]

Aside from the very illustrative statistics I've posted that Little Rock is the 5th largest metro with the highest crime and that violent crimes in Little Rock are worse than in Miami (rumoured to have the highest violent crime rate), how does the state of Arkansas justify allowing such rampant rapes and murders in the capitol of a state when the state's population is nearly the same as the Miami-Dade Metro? It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. I'm embarrassed that I live in a metro that is as remotely associated with such a dangerous and crime-ridden city as our own state capitol.

There's no excuse that can hide the fact that murders in Little Rock have always been very high and are consistently getting worse. Look at these facts if you can bare it...

Murders in Little Rock:

1999/30 2000/31 2001/34 2002/41 2003/44

I don't have figures for 2004-2005, but it looks like more escalating murders in Little Rock with 2006 already reaching 47. I can understand why noone wants to face the hard facts. So go on and continue the discussion about how the rest of Arkansas is a drain on Northwest Arkansas' economy, but please at least look into the facts before making fantastical claims that are untrue.

If you don't deal drugs or chase prostitutes, and you don't venture into places you know you shouldn't be, and STILL feel unsafe in Little Rock - then you are just scared of your own shadow.

Sure, it sucks that LR has such a high murder rate right now, but it's not random crime. It's people that know each other the vast majority of the time, or a drug deal gone bad, etc. You keep harping that "you can't ignore the facts blah blah blah..." but facts are what you make them out to be. They have to be put into context, and you are forgetting that context.

[masons_dad1]

If you don't deal drugs or chase prostitutes, and you don't venture into places you know you shouldn't be, and STILL feel unsafe in Little Rock - then you are just scared of your own shadow.

Sure, it sucks that LR has such a high murder rate right now, but it's not random crime. It's people that know each other the vast majority of the time, or a drug deal gone bad, etc. You keep harping that "you can't ignore the facts blah blah blah..." but facts are what you make them out to be. They have to be put into context, and you are forgetting that context.

That doesn't explain why Little Rock officials (hell our own governor lives there) are allowing this kind of crime to continue. So what if it's in "certain neighborhoods", it's bad and it's not all gang members being killed. Innocent people, kids with a bright future, are being killed in these crimes. I recently read about a Little Rock high school honor student who pushed himself to do good in school so that one day he could get a college education was murdered in a "random crime". It was random to him because he wasn't involved in the crime other than being a victim of it. He could have become the president of a Fortune 500 company or even the president of the United States one day. Oh, but he was an African American who, unfortunately, lived in the wrong side of town, although not by his choosing. But I guess that's acceptable because these crimes aren't happening in the right side of town.

ummm... is that "put into context" enough for you?

[KJW]

Not only that, but Grove has lots of disposable income? According to the 2000 census there were a few more than 5,000 people there and per capita income was $18,351. Wikipedia-Grove, OK

Right now there are about 20 gated communities in the Grove/Monkey Island area of OK, right next door to Benton County.

This isn't Highland Park, TX or the like, but there's some money being spent there...it's a lake resort community. I believe it's the biggest one on Oklahoma's Grand Lake.

I think "little town outside of a medium size town" would be far more fitting than suburb...after all, I don't know if Siloam even really qualifies as suburban...and it definitely isn't urban.

Here's the description for the Best Western Stateline hotel in West Siloam Springs, OK. (And there is indeed a town there that seems to spread about a mile west to the driving range on 112.) I'm guessing Siloam's got a "greater metro area" of about 17,000 - 18,000 when you count the city, West Siloam, Gentry and the Dawn Hill area between Siloam and Gentry...if you know where to drive (on Dawn Hill past the Adventist boarding school to the Siloam First Baptist Church on the north side of town) you can drive past nearly continuous businesses and housing all the way from the north city limit of Gentry to said West Siloam, OK driving range. (That might not sound big until you get to the range and look northeastward at the stack of the Flint Creek Power Plant on Gentry's west side, and get an idea of just how far you've driven. The same effect can be seen looking from south Siloam at the new chicken feed mill, the new water tower and the same smoke stack to the north.)

Siloam's getting bigger (it's size (as defined by nighttime outdoor lighting) surprised people I was riding a night flight to XNA with as far back as January 2003.) Not "urban" yet, but less and less a small town, too.

That having been said, I agree with the sentiment. NWA will soon encompass both Carroll and Delaware counties.

It may be tricky, particularly in Delaware County, but if so NWA will continue to carve out a new regional market of its own...if these amenities (i.e. the Promenade) turn out to be nice attractions how could it NOT do so with the counties next door?

[CentralArkansas]

That doesn't explain why Little Rock officials (hell our own governor lives there) are allowing this kind of crime to continue. So what if it's in "certain neighborhoods", it's bad and it's not all gang members being killed. Innocent people, kids with a bright future, are being killed in these crimes. I recently read about a Little Rock high school honor student who pushed himself to do good in school so that one day he could get a college education was murdered in a "random crime". It was random to him because he wasn't involved in the crime other than being a victim of it. He could have become the president of a Fortune 500 company or even the president of the United States one day. Oh, but he was an African American who, unfortunately, lived in the wrong side of town, although not by his choosing. But I guess that's acceptable because these crimes aren't happening in the right side of town.

ummm... is that "put into context" enough for you?

Whew, your barely hidden accusations that I'm a racist sure are hollow....anyway....

You're attempt to emotionalize the murders are going nowhere with me, or with anyone that pays attention to the situation. Sure, it sucks that people are getting killed - I've already said that. But I've yet to read about an honor student getting killed - except for the one that got shot because he was dealing drugs. True story, all over the papers. Now, if this was a different honor student, feel free to point me to the article and I will join you in shaking my head and feeling terribly for him. I will then go back to reality and realize that 99% of these murders are because people are living a life of crime - and end up paying for it.

[Aporkalypse]

Aside from the very illustrative statistics I've posted that Little Rock is the 5th largest metro with the highest crime and that violent crimes in Little Rock are worse than in Miami (rumoured to have the highest violent crime rate), how does the state of Arkansas justify allowing such rampant rapes and murders in the capitol of a state when the state's population is nearly the same as the Miami-Dade Metro? It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. I'm embarrassed that I live in a metro that is as remotely associated with such a dangerous and crime-ridden city as our own state capitol.

There's no excuse that can hide the fact that murders in Little Rock have always been very high and are consistently getting worse. Look at these facts if you can bare it...

Murders in Little Rock:

1999/30 2000/31 2001/34 2002/41 2003/44

I don't have figures for 2004-2005, but it looks like more escalating murders in Little Rock with 2006 already reaching 47. I can understand why noone wants to face the hard facts. So go on and continue the discussion about how the rest of Arkansas is a drain on Northwest Arkansas' economy, but please at least look into the facts before making fantastical claims that are untrue.

Those statistics compare the city of Little Rock to Miami-Dade, which encompasses 3.5 million people and is largely suburban, not the 350,000 actually living in the city of Miami. That's comparing apples and oranges.

[Aporkalypse]

Whew, your barely hidden accusations that I'm a racist sure are hollow....anyway....

You're attempt to emotionalize the murders are going nowhere with me, or with anyone that pays attention to the situation. Sure, it sucks that people are getting killed - I've already said that. But I've yet to read about an honor student getting killed - except for the one that got shot because he was dealing drugs. True story, all over the papers. Now, if this was a different honor student, feel free to point me to the article and I will join you in shaking my head and feeling terribly for him. I will then go back to reality and realize that 99% of these murders are because people are living a life of crime - and end up paying for it.

Exactly. More than 90% of serious crime in LR is drug-related. Jermaine Brooks was an honor student at UA and had enough drugs to supply NWA for 10 years and more guns than the Hezbollan when Fayetteville PD arrested him. There are bright people that make bad decisions as well.

masonsdad, I know you don't understand things as well as some other posters here but you have to look deeper than the surface. When you say things about having to do something about crime and complain about it, what are you referring to? If there was a magic wand that we could all wave and fix it, everyone would be for it. If you could pass a sales tax to hire more police and the murder rate would drop to 0, we would all do it. It's a social issue as we've discussed and it's not that easy to fix.

[Mith242]

Just thought I'd also mention something about the murders in Little Rock. This doesn't appear to be just a Little Rock thing. I just saw a story on how a number of cities around the country are having big jumps in violent crime and murders.

[jdevers]

Right now there are about 20 gated communities in the Grove/Monkey Island area of OK, right next door to Benton County.

This isn't Highland Park, TX or the like, but there's some money being spent there...it's a lake resort community. I believe it's the biggest one on Oklahoma's Grand Lake.

Here's the description for the Best Western Stateline hotel in West Siloam Springs, OK. (And there is indeed a town there that seems to spread about a mile west to the driving range on 112.) I'm guessing Siloam's got a "greater metro area" of about 17,000 - 18,000 when you count the city, West Siloam, Gentry and the Dawn Hill area between Siloam and Gentry...if you know where to drive (on Dawn Hill past the Adventist boarding school to the Siloam First Baptist Church on the north side of town) you can drive past nearly continuous businesses and housing all the way from the north city limit of Gentry to said West Siloam, OK driving range. (That might not sound big until you get to the range and look northeastward at the stack of the Flint Creek Power Plant on Gentry's west side, and get an idea of just how far you've driven. The same effect can be seen looking from south Siloam at the new chicken feed mill, the new water tower and the same smoke stack to the north.)

Siloam's getting bigger (it's size (as defined by nighttime outdoor lighting) surprised people I was riding a night flight to XNA with as far back as January 2003.) Not "urban" yet, but less and less a small town, too.

It may be tricky, particularly in Delaware County, but if so NWA will continue to carve out a new regional market of its own...if these amenities (i.e. the Promenade) turn out to be nice attractions how could it NOT do so with the counties next door?

OK, so I may have misjudged Grove. That is the problem with using things like income to determine the wealth of a community. Most of the people aren't WORKING but retiring, so they actually cause a DECREASE in per capita income. Especially if they aren't really well off and make a decent living off of investments and such.

[masons_dad1]

Whew, your barely hidden accusations that I'm a racist sure are hollow....anyway....

You're attempt to emotionalize the murders are going nowhere with me, or with anyone that pays attention to the situation. Sure, it sucks that people are getting killed - I've already said that. But I've yet to read about an honor student getting killed - except for the one that got shot because he was dealing drugs. True story, all over the papers. Now, if this was a different honor student, feel free to point me to the article and I will join you in shaking my head and feeling terribly for him. I will then go back to reality and realize that 99% of these murders are because people are living a life of crime - and end up paying for it.

I'm bored with your lame excuses. The fact remains that Little Rock is the 5th most dangerous and crime-ridden city in the country. As much as you try none of your excuses can discount that fact. And you can read into the racism all you want, because there's something wrong with a state government that allows those crimes to happen so long as they're not in their neighborhood. Like it or not Little Rock has been one of the unsafest cities in the country for going on two decades.

Exactly. More than 90% of serious crime in LR is drug-related. Jermaine Brooks was an honor student at UA and had enough drugs to supply NWA for 10 years and more guns than the Hezbollan when Fayetteville PD arrested him. There are bright people that make bad decisions as well.

masonsdad, I know you don't understand things as well as some other posters here but you have to look deeper than the surface. When you say things about having to do something about crime and complain about it, what are you referring to? If there was a magic wand that we could all wave and fix it, everyone would be for it. If you could pass a sales tax to hire more police and the murder rate would drop to 0, we would all do it. It's a social issue as we've discussed and it's not that easy to fix.

You know what they say about people that make assumptions so you should stop while you're ahead. What does a single incident in Fayetteville have to do with dozens of murders each year in Little Rock? That tells me that when you "don't understand things" you try to avoid them by posting unrelated information. Save your posts for when you want to bemoan developments in Northwest Arkansas and compare them to the grand developments in Dallas. You should try to do some of the research that I do before posting as it might make your arguments more substantial.

Just thought I'd also mention something about the murders in Little Rock. This doesn't appear to be just a Little Rock thing. I just saw a story on how a number of cities around the country are having big jumps in violent crime and murders.

You're right and all that information is made available at the FBI and Dept. of Justice websites. The problem is that even accounting for the rise in violent crimes nationwide, Little Rock is still the 5th most dangerous and crime-ridden city in the country.

[mcheiss]

Okay guys, I don't want to lock this topic, but it seems to be getting out of hand.

Clean it up, ok?

[masons_dad1]

Okay guys, I don't want to lock this topic, but it seems to be getting out of hand.

Clean it up, ok?

Everything I've posted is factual and supported by city, state and federal governments. I never start throwing insults at anyone who doesn't fire the first shot. I don't know why certain people become so emotionally effected and become so insulting when someone states facts they don't agree with.

I'll be the first to refrain from further posting on this topic since it doesn't seem to be very productive at all.

[jdevers]

OK, I have no idea why I am getting involved with this, but I took a spreadsheet from the Dept of Justice supplying city pop and number of homicides every year from 1985-1997 (pop estimates for each year). Then I calculated the average number of homicides per person across that time span. The only cities included are those above 100,000 (seemingly for ANY year in that span of time), so the stats shouldn't be thrown off too bad from an individual event OR for having a bad/good year. Now the population listed is for the municipality itself, not the metro area, so there is a skew towards urban cores, but it isn't as bad as I thought as there are several smaller cities in the top ten. Little Rock on the other hand comes in at number 30. St Louis is number 6 and DC is number 1 (of course, the skew is EXTREME in regards to DC).

Spreadsheet

The average I calculated is on column AD of this spreadsheet. Please don't overlink this, it is running on my personal web server on my DSL line, please don't melt it =)

[mcheiss]

These kinds of discussions should be discussed in the Coffeshop thread, that's why we made it.

[CentralArkansas]

These kinds of discussions should be discussed in the Coffeshop thread, that's why we made it.

What is everyone freaking out about? No one has gotten personal, sometimes contentious issues have to be discussed, that doesn't mean it's a "disrespect-fest."

A little civilized conflict never hurt anybody...

[mcheiss]

What is everyone freaking out about? No one has gotten personal, sometimes contentious issues have to be discussed, that doesn't mean it's a "disrespect-fest."

A little civilized conflict never hurt anybody...

Relax, I'm the only one concerned.

I often try to step in, because these little conflicts turn into large ones. If you guys can behave yourselfs, than continue the discussion.

[KJW]

Relax, I'm the only one concerned.

I often try to step in, because these little conflicts turn into large ones. If you guys can behave yourselfs, than continue the discussion.

I apologize...I started this by saying the LR has a bit of a reputation. (And I qualified my remarks as I really like the city very much.)

I wish I hadn't said anything now on the subject. Among other things, LR has done some incredible things with the riverfront that NWA will never be able to have (unless the NWA metro someday encompasses Fort Smith).

[CentralArkansas]

Relax, I'm the only one concerned.

I often try to step in, because these little conflicts turn into large ones. If you guys can behave yourselfs, than continue the discussion.

I'm relaxed, I just didn't want a molehill to be turned into a mountain.

I'm not upset, and I believe that disagreement often produces the best discussion.

Anyway, you're doing a great job, but back on topic.....

[flyfisher]

I was born and raised in Little Rock and that is where I currently reside. I've also lived in NWA and have two sons that currently live there. I love both places and find each place has its own separate identity along with comparable liknesses. As far as crime in Little Rock, its a problem. The numbers bear it out. But its a huge problem that is still blown out of proportion. I dont feel threatened where I live or in the places I frequent, and I live in a medium income, predominantly white but mixed neighborhood.

Its easy to conjur up biased views and promote the "us against them" mentality. The last I heard we were one state and all known as Arkansans. We're a poor state. When I was in NWA Arkansas this past weekend, I didnt sense a disproportionate allocation of tax money. In fact, I was amazed at the number of 4-5 lane streets that crisscross the area, particularly in Springdale, Rogers and Bentonville. At no time did I think whoa, this seems disproportionate. Instead, I say more power to NWA, keep growing and keep your local political figures working for you.

Arguements can be made in a lot of areas. But, I personally think it all balances out in the end. We all know that the Great Stadium Debate divided NWA and Little Rock for a time. But, division is not what we need. Ideally, both areas will continue to experience healthy growth and continue developing their own identities that make them pleasurable places to live. I hope NWA will continue its steady growth and become the regional center that so many want. In the meantime, I'm gonna retire somewhere midway in the mountains and enjoy making trips to both areas.

[Mith242]

I was born and raised in Little Rock and that is where I currently reside. I've also lived in NWA and have two sons that currently live there. I love both places and find each place has its own separate identity along with comparable liknesses. As far as crime in Little Rock, its a problem. The numbers bear it out. But its a huge problem that is still blown out of proportion. I dont feel threatened where I live or in the places I frequent, and I live in a medium income, predominantly white but mixed neighborhood.

Its easy to conjur up biased views and promote the "us against them" mentality. The last I heard we were one state and all known as Arkansans. We're a poor state. When I was in NWA Arkansas this past weekend, I didnt sense a disproportionate allocation of tax money. In fact, I was amazed at the number of 4-5 lane streets that crisscross the area, particularly in Springdale, Rogers and Bentonville. At no time did I think whoa, this seems disproportionate. Instead, I say more power to NWA, keep growing and keep your local political figures working for you.

Arguements can be made in a lot of areas. But, I personally think it all balances out in the end. We all know that the Great Stadium Debate divided NWA and Little Rock for a time. But, division is not what we need. Ideally, both areas will continue to experience healthy growth and continue developing their own identities that make them pleasurable places to live. I hope NWA will continue its steady growth and become the regional center that so many want. In the meantime, I'm gonna retire somewhere midway in the mountains and enjoy making trips to both areas.

I certainly agree with your comments. As you said both areas are nice in their own ways. I also agree with you as far as the crime goes in Little Rock. I grew up in Pine Bluff, which is a rather rough place as many know in Arkansas. But that's not to say I had someone shooting at me every single day or anything like that. It certainly wasn't the greatest place to grow up but it wasn't the horrible ordeal many people seem to think it was either. You might change your mind a little if you got to see some of the work day traffic. Weekend traffic doesn't seem as bad except for certain areas.

[CellarDoor135]

The truth is that both Little Rock and NWA are being milked by the rest of the state. I find it hard to believe that Little Rock is milking us, but I do think that every other little town in the state would be up sh*t creek without either one of our metro areas. Those five lane roads and bypasses around the smaller metro areas would not be there without our metros being so successful. We would both be better off without the rest of the state

Especially towns like Jonesboro, Texarkana, and Pine Bluff. Not anything in particular about those towns, just that those towns all have slow growth. Yet they are all at the size that they require bypasses, five lane roads, and constant maintnance. Hell, Greenwood Arkansas is trying to get a highway 10 bypass around their community. There is no way that Greenwood needs that bypass more than Bella Vista. But it happens like that. And we are left to raise the money ourselves. Figure that out.

[jdevers]

The truth is that both Little Rock and NWA are being milked by the rest of the state. I find it hard to believe that Little Rock is milking us, but I do think that every other little town in the state would be up sh*t creek without either one of our metro areas. Those five lane roads and bypasses around the smaller metro areas would not be there without our metros being so successful. We would both be better off without the rest of the state

Especially towns like Jonesboro, Texarkana, and Pine Bluff. Not anything in particular about those towns, just that those towns all have stagnant growth. Yet they are all at the size that they require bypasses, five lane roads, and constant maintnance. Hell, Greenwood Arkansas is trying to get a highway 10 bypass around their community. There is no way that Greenwood needs that bypass more than Bella Vista. But it happens like that. And we are left to raise the money ourselves. Figure that out.

Couldn't have said it better myself. However, the rural areas in ALL states leach off the metro areas. It is just the way things are. Every time I go to visit my grandparents in Helena, we drive down US 49 which is being made four lane. I don't remember ever driving on that road where it was busy as a TWO lane road, four lanes is outlandish. I know they are planning on making a four lane road to every city over 10K people or something hoping it will "spur development." What a crock, roads don't make development happen, they allow it. Now an interstate through a town can encourage at least some growth, but these highways go TO the town, not through connecting larger metro areas. They are a boondoggle, no more, no less. That is the cost of the deal with the devil we made to get I-540 (which WAS substantially more expensive than any of these roads through mostly flat farm land, but it serves a LOT more people). There is no reason each highway department division in Arkansas should get equal funding, unless we redid the divisions to match congressional districts so that as an area grew in population its funding was concentrated.

[itk]

Couldn't have said it better myself. However, the rural areas in ALL states leach off the metro areas. It is just the way things are. Every time I go to visit my grandparents in Helena, we drive down US 49 which is being made four lane. I don't remember ever driving on that road where it was busy as a TWO lane road, four lanes is outlandish. I know they are planning on making a four lane road to every city over 10K people or something hoping it will "spur development." What a crock, roads don't make development happen, they allow it. Now an interstate through a town can encourage at least some growth, but these highways go TO the town, not through connecting larger metro areas. They are a boondoggle, no more, no less. That is the cost of the deal with the devil we made to get I-540 (which WAS substantially more expensive than any of these roads through mostly flat farm land, but it serves a LOT more people). There is no reason each highway department division in Arkansas should get equal funding, unless we redid the divisions to match congressional districts so that as an area grew in population its funding was concentrated.

AHTD I know recognizes the limitation of part of the current funding mechanism in Arkansas, as you point out. That is why it is seriously considering alternative sources of funding to help areas of the state that have immediate needs, such as NWA. From what I understand, there is a good possibility of this being discussed during the next legislative session.

[KJW]

The truth is that both Little Rock and NWA are being milked by the rest of the state. I find it hard to believe that Little Rock is milking us, but I do think that every other little town in the state would be up sh*t creek without either one of our metro areas. Those five lane roads and bypasses around the smaller metro areas would not be there without our metros being so successful. We would both be better off without the rest of the state

Especially towns like Jonesboro, Texarkana, and Pine Bluff. Not anything in particular about those towns, just that those towns all have slow growth. Yet they are all at the size that they require bypasses, five lane roads, and constant maintnance. Hell, Greenwood Arkansas is trying to get a highway 10 bypass around their community. There is no way that Greenwood needs that bypass more than Bella Vista. But it happens like that. And we are left to raise the money ourselves. Figure that out.

I'm with you...I don't think Greenwood needs it, yet.

Is that bypass a possibility for the I-49 network when that highway is built someday (as I still think it inevitable will be). I still believe if Houston/New Orleans (which already is linked to Shreveport via I-49) is ever linked to Shreveport and that city is linked to Fort Smith/NWA we're going to have a lot more traffic than we bargained for on our hands. A LOT more, if our nation lasts that long.

[flyfisher]

I agree with the discontent of the major metro areas subsidizing the smaller communities, particularly where the improvements are lavish, unwarranted and based on economic speculation. The larger problem, as I see it, is at the federal level. The opposite seems true. Arkansas, being a poor state is a "Donor" state with regard to how federal fuel tax money is distributed. States like NY and CA, and other larger metro areas across the country gobble up the lions share of those funds that we pay into everytime we fill the tank.

Spending at the state and federal level has been like this for generations and isnt likely to change. About the only thing we can do is elect strong political leaders that are able to steer funding in our direction. Both, at the state and federal levels. I remember back when we had such figures as John McClelland, J. William Fulbright, Wilbur Mills and John Paul Hammerschmidt that were quite good at seeing that Arkansas got a fair share of federal monies. At the state level, there are several state senators from smaller communities that wield far too much power for the area they represent, and steer far too much money to unwarranted projects much like the Greenwood Bypass as was mentioned.

[Aporkalypse]

Okay guys, I don't want to lock this topic, but it seems to be getting out of hand.

Clean it up, ok?

Mith had the best intentions when he started this thread and I agree that it was a topic some people, maybe even me, are just too immature to discuss rationally. There always is going to be one person that hijacks this kind of topic and turns it into something malicious. One of my pet peeves has always been when people say "you really need to fix that crime problem" but doesn't mention how to do it. There is no easy way to do it. Sorry, though, that I contributed to the decomposition of the thread.

The urban vs rural funding issue, as I mentioned early in the thread, has been a topic of debate since I was a kid. It used to be that LR and its suburbs were getting robbed to fund rural projects all over Arkansas, including at one point in NWA. Now I think with two very viable suburban/urban areas that is much less of an issue as the impact on the wealthier parts of the state is diluted.