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From the levees in New Orleans to Boston's Big Dig

intcvlcphlga

By intcvlcphlga
in The Coffee House

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itk Hamlet

itk

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I don't like to Monday Morning quarterback what I read/heard in the media, but they are saying that at least several people questioned why the roof was built like that, and why it was even needed at all (questioned when it was being designed/built, not in retrospect). What collapsed is in effect, a drop ceiling made of 3-ton tiles. The actual tunnel ceiling sits above it.

I've been wondering about that since I first heard about this-- anyone know why there are even ceiling tiles in the first place? What's the purpose?

While there have no doubt been huge failures in the past like the aforementioned Tacoma-Narrows Bridge, I guess part of my premise for starting this topic is that there used to be a component of civic pride that could kind of trump notions of value engineering that doesn't seem to exist as much today. When it was built (and to this day), the Brooklyn Bridge commanded much respect both as an engineering feat as well as a beautiful structure. The thought was that in order to connect Brooklyn to Manhattan you didn't just have to build a bridge, you had to build the most beautiful marvel of engineering and design of the day. Perhaps there is a bit of a resurgence with every city now seeming to want a building by the most fashionable architect of the moment (Gehry, Calatrava, etc).

Another vein of thought is a debate that's been going on in New York ever since 9/11 and it is precisely the question of whether we as a city/society can achieve a civic monument the way we used to be able to. It's not just whether or not we have the scientific knowledge and the skilled labor to execute it, but whether or not we have the civic, economic and political will to execute a beautiful piece of architecture or infrastructure. I think the answer is probably not, but I do hold out some hope that the jury is still out. For now though, at the World Trade Center, David Childs is giving us a "Freedom" Tower design that pales in comparison to the towers designed by almost every other entrant to the Ground Zero competition. Sciame's value engineered memorial is even worse than the banal design by Michael Arad. And, the only interesting building to be proposed for the site, Snohetta's cultural building, has most likely been cut from the project completely.

I think I understand what you are getting at, but I think you still need to remember that in this day and age, as others have noted in this thread, costs for materials, labor, etc., in combination with politicians and the efforts to trim budgets in high profile transportation projects (esp. massively inflated projects like the Big Dig), among other factors make your point moot I think. In the Brooklyn Bridge days, the costs for labor and materials were MUCH cheaper than today, even when adjusting for inflation. If you mean the "civic pride" of engineers, contractors, etc., I think that's a non-factor-- I'm not confident this tragedy could've been avoided if someone took more pride and did a better job bolting something together for example, or designing a structure "better" because he/she had more pride.

If you mean "civic pride" of the people, then that would be reflected by political action. BUT, when it comes to civil engineering projects, do you want to help pay for extras like aesthetics, which it seems you are referring to in the second paragraph? That's a classic debate. BUT, when it comes to a civil project like the Big Dig, there is no excuse for anything, even under the heaviest pressures to cut costs. Either it's designed and constructed to not fail, or it isn't. Whether it be a design flaw or a corrupt contractor or whatever, someone(s) will be held accountable. If someone(s) screwed up, I won't have any sympathy because he/she/they were under a tight schedule, budget, mis-management, or political pressure. Nor does the profession.

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monsoon Gigalopolis

monsoon

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I've been wondering about that since I first heard about this-- anyone know why there are even ceiling tiles in the first place? What's the purpose?

It is part of an emergency ventilation system to be used in case there is a fire in the tunnel. Presumably if a tanker overturned and caught on fire, they could turn the system on and the fumes and smoke would be pulled out of the tunnel via the gigantic plenum created by these tiles. Given how the rest of the project is going, I think its a bit dubious it would even work when needed.

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Cotuit Megalopolis

Cotuit

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I've been wondering about that since I first heard about this-- anyone know why there are even ceiling tiles in the first place? What's the purpose?

I believe there are those who thought the ventilation system could work without having this drop ceiling on the tunnel. The fans and such would be sufficient and the ceiling wasn't needed. Of course others believed it was needed, and it was installed.

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rocky top buzz Hamlet

rocky top buzz

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The levves in NO were built to resist a Cat 3 hurricane; they were hit by a Cat 5, so the whole premise of this of this argument is false. Plus, they were old AND failed!

I will agree that houses don't seem to be built as solid as they once were, but I only feel that way because houses are built so fast today. Engineers tell you that today's houses are better, and in 50-100 years, I guess we'll know for sure! I don't hear of 5 year old houses falling apart at an alarming rate.

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NCB Metropolitan Area

NCB

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The levves in NO were built to resist a Cat 3 hurricane; they were hit by a Cat 5, so the whole premise of this of this argument is false. Plus, they were old AND failed!

Well, when Katrina first stuck New Orleans it was a Cat. 4, and when the full storm was over the city, it was a Cat. 3. But either way, we did find out that many of the levees surrounding New Orleans and the surrounding area flat out sucked. The pilings weren't drilled nearly deep enough in many areas, maintenence and repair of simple things like cracks and soft spots in the levees was not done much, or at all, in many areas by the Army Corps of Engineers. And you can go on and on about maintenence and construction problems. As a result, many of the levees were not at all capable of withstanding a Cat. 3 hurricane, but that was something that we were not aware of.

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nashvillwill Burg

nashvillwill

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The shuttle is yet another example of a failure of the current generation of managers and engineers there to run that program. We were supposed to be having 1/week shuttle flights, instead we get one about every 2 years or so.

I take offense to this statement about the shuttle. The newest generation is left with 30 year old shuttles that have not been maintained or updated and expected to do marvelous things with them. Its like putting a '73 Monte Carlo with 200k miles on it, in a Indy Car race with the newest technology. The older generation screwed up by allowing the government to control all aspects of space flight. There should be alot of private competition by now, which would lower the cost and improve the quality of things. We are just now begining to see the slightest traces of private flight by a handful of rich essentrics, who have yet to prove much. This should have begun decades ago.

Regardless, the shuttle is obsolete, and if the general public gave a damn about it(which is not the case) there might be some new money for a new program. Sadly, the reality is that science is taking a back seat to "reality" television.

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intcvlcphlga Hamlet

intcvlcphlga

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I believe there are those who thought the ventilation system could work without having this drop ceiling on the tunnel. The fans and such would be sufficient and the ceiling wasn't needed. Of course others believed it was needed, and it was installed.

On the News Hour on PBS, the Boston Globe's Big Dig reporter said that the reason for such a substantial drop ceiling was because when it is ventilating smoke, toxins, etc., the draft created is nearly equivalent to hurricane force winds so a buffer between the occupants of the tunnel and the plenum space is necessary.

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Cotuit Megalopolis

Cotuit

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AG Reilly says there was "substantial dispute" about tunnel design [Boston.com]

AG is saying the designers and Bechtel/Parsons Brinckerhoff disagreed about the design of the connector tunnel's roof. It is unclear who was on which side of the debate from the AGs comments.

Investigators are trying to determine why a lighter ceiling panel system was used in the Ted William Tunnel. Those tiles are a combination of porcelain and concrete and weigh about 700 pounds each, as opposed to the approximate 6,000 pounds slabs that fell in the connector.
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