Israel-Lebanon Conflict

[GRCentro]

I'm no expert of Middle Eastern politics, but I find the recent events fascinating. Obviously this is about much more than recovering a couple missing Israeli soldiers. Israel wants to eliminate Hezbollah and weaken Syria's control of the region. I find it very disturbing, however, that Israel is willing to destroy Lebanon's major infastructure and potentially de-stablize their young government. As this conflict moves closer to a full-scale war, I fear that it is the Lebanese people, not Hezbollah, that will suffer.

Thoughts?

[hood]

I've been waiting for someone else to start this topic...

I really don't know how to begin to express my discontent with Israel and our continued support of them, so I'll try to keep it short. In my opinion Israel shouldn't exist to begin with, it should still be Palistine. Israel should have alowed the official establishment of a Palistinian state many, many years ago, unconditionally. Israel is self rightous and thinks they can do no wrong, in reality their actions are the root cause of ALL muslim terrorism today. The terrorists who are attacking Israel are justified in doing so as far as I'm concerned, they are simply fighting a low-budget war to win back the land that is rightfully theirs, and fight back against the people who are killing innocent civilains and doing a number of other things to terrorize the Palistinian people, and Israel is supposed to be the "civilized" one in the conflict. We need to immeadiatly stop supporting this terrorist state, if we hadn't to begin with we would likely not be getting attacked right now. In short, Israel sickins me, and this conflict is escalating quickly, if things keep progressing the way they have been I wouldn't be at all suprised to see someone launch a nuke, and/or attack the US.

[Mikejesmike]

It's not disproportionate at all. If you think this is just because of 2 soldiers then I have a bridge to sell you, this is about 2 soldiers, Israel territory being invaded by Hezbollah, who have members in the Lebanese government and about 100 or more rocket attacks since 2000. Too many nations are asking Israel to endure things they wouldn't even tolerate for one day.

Israel has finally said enough is enough.

I really hope Israel grinds hamas and hezbollah into dust and whatever else zealot from the other Mid east nations that shows up to take up the fight, when you have an enemy sworn to destroy your nation and people, you can't and shouldn't be ###### footin around. An enemy like that must either be destroyed or beaten so badly that they admit defeat, that's the only way it goes and it's what Israel should've done years ago.

Can you imagine if during WWII if the US,UK and the USSR got to the borders of Germany and then turned back thinking well I hope those Germans learned their lesson, we would've probably had another World War in the 60's and probably to this day would still have to be dealing with them on a hostile level.

When hamas,hezbollah and the martyrs brigade are finished then the Palestinians can have their own nation, but when you have a mosquito buzzing around instigating things there will never be peace.

Get rid of these terrorists groups, get Syria to sign a peace agreement in return for the Golan Heights, let the Palestinians claim independence and sign a peace agreement with Israel and the problems will be over.

[Spartan]

President Clinton was able to arrange a deal between the Israelis and the Palestinians that gave the Palestinians something like 97% of what they wanted, but they ended up rejecting the deal. They don't want peace. They want the destruction of Israel (which they view as a 51st state pretty much).

The problem is that the nations around Israel don't view it as legitimate. They see it as an occupation of their land. So the only real way to stop the violence is to kick out the Israelis and give the land back to the Palestinians. But that won't happen.

I am interested to see if Syria and/or Iran get pulled into this since they are big supporters of hazballah.

[monsoon]

The divisions are deep and very difficult to solve at this point. The root of the matter is that Arabs feel that Israel was/is a European problem that was dumped in their lap at the end of WWII and they lost land and territory as a result. Many still feel that Jews should have been given part of Germany for a homeland. The creation of Israel, was done by "Christian" nations which is part of the problem since Christians from Europe and been doing battle in the Middle East against Muslems many centuries. One has to understand this point of view if one hopes to get anywhere with solving the issues of the area.

The other thing to keep in mind is that Israel could not exist without direct financial and arms support from the USA. The USA has broad and powerful influence over what Israel does in regards to its neighbors. Unfortunately since GW Bush has taken office, there has been absolutely no engagement by the USA in the peace process and now we have war.

I do think Israel is making unnecessary war and it is unwarranted. Of course the only leadership that we get from our idiot president is more rhetoric on the evils of Syria and Iran, all while innocent people are dying. It's the same old story.

[Spartan]

All very good points, metro.

[Mikejesmike]

The other thing to keep in mind is that Israel could not exist without direct financial and arms support from the USA. The USA has broad and powerful influence over what Israel does in regards to its neighbors. Unfortunately since GW Bush has taken office, there has been absolutely no engagement by the USA in the peace process and now we have war.

I don't believe that. We weren't supporting them in 1948 and last that I recall we didn't start sending them weapons and financial help until after 1967.

[monsoon]

I don't believe that. We weren't supporting them in 1948 and last that I recall we didn't start sending them weapons and financial help until after 1967.

So where are they getting their weapons? BTW, 1967 is almost 40 years. Israel is not even 60 years old.

[Mikejesmike]

They are buying their weapons from the US. If we denied them weapons they could buy them from another nation. It doesn't mean that they'll automatically fall if we deny them weapons. Israel is a modern developed, highly educated nation. If it came down to it they could design and build their own weapons if they were desperate about it. This isn't Jordan or Syria we're talking about, this is by world standards a wealthy nation that has a GDP twice that of Syria, while Syria has 3 times the population. Combine with the fact that Israelis will fight like animals to preserve what they have so they don't have to go through a repeat of what happened in WWII and I don't see Israel being overrun. They weren't in 1948 and now they're vastly more powerful and richer now.

I don't quite understand the age reference.

[Spartan]

I don't believe that. We weren't supporting them in 1948 and last that I recall we didn't start sending them weapons and financial help until after 1967.

Israel recieves a lot of political support from the US. It always has- being the victors of the last World War kind of put us in the position to support whatever came of it. You'll notice that Bush has not once asked Israel to stop. He just said "be careful." That is essentially support. Its also one of the many reasons that people over there don't like the US.

[Mikejesmike]

Bush is right about that-Achieve your goals, but try to keep innocent casualties to a minimum. No nation has the right to tell Israel to stop. If you (world) thinks Israel should stop then I guess you'd have no problems if Israel stopped flying over Lebanon and started lobbing rockets into Lebanon because that's exactly what's happened to Israel.

Popularity is meaningless, it doesn't make something good or right. Hamas is popular, Hezbollah is popular, Hitler was popular.

[g-man430]

There's war in the middle east, fires in the west, droughts in the southeast, cats and dogs loving each other, congress and the president having their heads so far up their ass, etc. What else is new.

[Mikejesmike]

There's war in the middle east, fires in the west, droughts in the southeast, cats and dogs loving each other, congress and the president having their heads so far up their ass, etc. What else is new.

Sounds like a Bob Dylan song.

I made a mistake, the US sold Israel some weapons back around 1962.

[monsoon]

Since 1949 Israel has received over $100 billion in assistance from the USA and of that, it is generally allowed to spend 1/3rd on military procurement. This does not include joint military development of which Israel is involved in a number of USA military programs at the good graces of the USA taxpayer. Israel is currently participating in several GW Bush "Star Wars" programs.

[Snowguy716]

I think Israel has gone nuts here. What they have just done is blown open a can of worms and the shockwaves and fallout from their actions will be felt for a long time to come.

I am also of the opinion that Palestinians should have their own state. But I also believe that Israel should have their own state.

But I think Israel has just blown the chance for peace any time soon.

[Mikejesmike]

I think you should replace Israel with Hezbollah in your statement. Israel just wants to be left alone, they desire peace with their neighbors, but they have to let neighboring hostile nations and militants know that poking them would be like poking a hornet's nest. If you like them and want to be their friend then fine, if you don't like them then leave them alone it's just that simple.

The one question that no one seems to be asking is-Why should Israel just sit there and take it? It's ok for forces in Lebanon to launch rockets at Israel, but Israel cannot respond back?

For those ready to throw in some numbers like 500 Lebanese have been killed compared to 50 Israelis, spare me the meaningless numbers. In war you fight until your opponent gives up, the numbers killed on the enemies side is meaningless. Is Israel supposed to stop fighting so Hezbollah can kill 451 Israelis before they can resume fighting again?

[g-man430]

I just don't see why Israel is going so balistic over 2 kidnapped soldiers.

[Mikejesmike]

This goes beyond 2 soldiers, they're going ballistic simply because they have to. Right next to them are at least 3 groups that adhere to the Osama Bin Laden school of diplomacy.

[g-man430]

This goes beyond 2 soldiers, they're going ballistic simply because they have to. Right next to them are at least 3 groups that adhere to the Osama Bin Laden school of diplomacy.

My question is why now? Why are they bombing everybody now? Why not last year or next year?

[Mikejesmike]

That's a good question, my guess is they waited for world opinion to take note of the previous attacks and side with them. When it didn't happen they said screw this we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. I think they should've taken care of this years ago.

[hood]

IF Israel wants peace so bad why have they terrorized the Palestinians for so long, not allowing them their own state. A freind of my moms dad went to Palestine a couple years ago, he said that Israel has been terrorizing palestine for quite some time, cutting off water and electricity at will, murdering innocent civilians sometimes in an organized fashion. Israel is just as much terrorists as Hezbollah, except with a much larger budget.

[GRCentro]

The one question that no one seems to be asking is-Why should Israel just sit there and take it? It's ok for forces in Lebanon to launch rockets at Israel, but Israel cannot respond back?

I've always considered myself Pro-Israel. I believe they have a right to defend themselves against hostility. The manner and scope of their recent military actions, however, are way off base. Please remember that the "forces in Lebanon" that you mention are separate and distinct from Lebanon, the sovereign state. Hezbollah is an independent group and does not act under the authority of the the Lebanese government or the general Lebanese public. It is totally inappropriate then, that Israel has placed the entire country under attack for the actions of a relatively small group of people. Israel has unapologetically attacked major highways, bridges, power stations, the airport, and has placed all major ports under blockade. The young Lebanese government is helpless and the national economy is halted.

Perhaps a better question is, why should the Lebanese people have to bear the punishment of someone else's war?

The destruction of major public infastructure and the economic siege of an entire country are not appropriate ways to "respond back" to an independent terrorist cell.

[Spartan]

But they haven't put all of Lebanon under attack. They have been targeting hezballah's hideouts. They are doing what it takes to make life for hezballah as miserable as possible. The idea is probably that people will figure out that Israel is doing this because of hezballah more so than it is again Lebanon, who's only major fault is not having a strong enough government and military to out hezballah.

IMO this war is what these terrorist groups have been wanting.

[Ruso]

It's not disproportionate at all. If you think this is just because of 2 soldiers then I have a bridge to sell you, this is about 2 soldiers, Israel territory being invaded by Hezbollah, who have members in the Lebanese government and about 100 or more rocket attacks since 2000. Too many nations are asking Israel to endure things they wouldn't even tolerate for one day.

Israel has finally said enough is enough.

I really hope Israel grinds hamas and hezbollah into dust and whatever else zealot from the other Mid east nations that shows up to take up the fight, when you have an enemy sworn to destroy your nation and people, you can't and shouldn't be ###### footin around. An enemy like that must either be destroyed or beaten so badly that they admit defeat, that's the only way it goes and it's what Israel should've done years ago.

When hamas,hezbollah and the martyrs brigade are finished then the Palestinians can have their own nation, but when you have a mosquito buzzing around instigating things there will never be peace.

Israel has finally said enough? I think this is a much more complicated problem. At the same time that this is about Hezbolla sending rockets, 2 soldiers, etc, this is also about arab territory arbitrarily given to the Jewish state, years of abuses, 250 000 people taken away from their land when Israel was first created, 75 % of palestines living in Gaza in financially inhuman conditions, lack of international assistance, (help from other arab nations has been blockaded), and, again, years of abuses.

How would you feel if suddenly they decide to take you away from home and give part of all the Americans to an independent indigenous government, because it was their land before?

"" When hamas,hezbollah and the martyrs brigade are finished then the Palestinians can have their own nation, but when you have a mosquito buzzing around instigating things there will never be peace.""

Palestianians are already trying to have their own nation. Remember that they voted for Hamas...

There's war in the middle east, fires in the west, droughts in the southeast, cats and dogs loving each other, congress and the president having their heads so far up their ass, etc. What else is new.

Lol, this war is everything but new. I would agree with those who say that it is another Cruzade.

[Mikejesmike]

IF Israel wants peace so bad why have they terrorized the Palestinians for so long, not allowing them their own state. A freind of my moms dad went to Palestine a couple years ago, he said that Israel has been terrorizing palestine for quite some time, cutting off water and electricity at will, murdering innocent civilians sometimes in an organized fashion. Israel is just as much terrorists as Hezbollah, except with a much larger budget.

Simple, one of the reasons why Israel has been taking such a long time to allow them to have their own state is

1-Many times Palestinian leadership have said they're going to kick Israelis out of Israel. Not exactly someone you want moving in next door.

2-Israel chooses to deal militarily rather than diplomatically with any nation or group that supports terrorism. If all these terrorist butt munchers were gone the Palestinians would have their own nation by now. Israel is not going to have another neighbor infested with terrorists, they already get enough of that from Syria and Lebanon.

Terrorism is so entwined in daily Palestinian life that Hamas are elected into the government. Things like that tend to make one pause and think that maybe the middle east just isn't ready for democracy yet like some people have been saying. If the day ever came that we in the United States ever (if they were still alive) elected Ted Bundy for President, John Wayne Gacy for Vice President and had Secretary of state Jeff Dahmer, then I give the world permission to come kick our butts.

I don't know what your definition of a terrorist is, but this to me is a terrorist-A person that walks into a pizza parlor and blows it up. A person that gets on a bus and blows it up. A person that sneaks into a wedding reception with an M16 with the intent to kill as many Israelis as possible. These are all the premeditated deliberate killings of civilians to induce political change based on fear.

These to me are not terrorist acts-Shooting at someone that's shooting at you, and someone innocent gets killed in the crossfire. Targeting a terrorist for a missle attack and innocent bystanders are killed. The aim is not to kill innocent civilians, except sadly they get hurt too.

People, especially liberals, have been a bit too free with the word terrorist lately. Innocent Israelis are killed by Palestinians, they're called terrorists. Innocent Palestinians are killed by Israelis, so therefore they must be terrorists as well.

It's the difference between someone that's deliberately lying to you, and someone that's unknowingly giving you false information as fact.

My name is Harry. That's a lie.

I tell John my name is Harry.

Steve meets up with John and asks who I was.

John says Harry

Steve does some research and finds out this isn't true

Henceforth John is a liar.

Just as conservatives tend to be too gung ho about war,liberals are just as bad but in the opposite direction with their put a flower in your hair give peace a chance BS. There needs to be a higher number of people in this nation that are more middle of the road.

Also that thing about America giving Israel hundred of millions in 1949 is news to me.