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Israel-Lebanon Conflict


GRCentro

Israel-Lebanon Conflict  

34 members have voted

  1. 1. Are Israel's recent attacks and blockade against Lebanon appropriate?

    • Yes - Israel has the right to defend itself against Hezbollah militants
      15
    • No - Israel's actions are disproportionate and unwarranted
      17
    • Other - Please explain
      2


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We don't have to look too far. I am simply flabberghasted at the new lows the Bush Administration will go to support war. It is absolutely inexcusable that Condelizza Rice will stand up and make a speach where she does not call for an immediate cease fire. Of course they are bowing down to religious extremists and neo cons who want to see Israel bomb Lebanon to the back to the stone age with American made weapons.

I can't imagine how these people sleep at night when their actions are leading to hundreds of dead including small children. Even more disturbing are the christian evangelicals in this country that are giddy with happiness this atrocity is taking place because they think it is the beginning of the rapture.

Oh and lets not forget that over 120 people are dying/day in Iraq. At least the Israel attacks are deflecting attention away from that mess.

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I've been waiting for someone else to start this topic...

I really don't know how to begin to express my discontent with Israel and our continued support of them, so I'll try to keep it short. In my opinion Israel shouldn't exist to begin with, it should still be Palistine. Israel should have alowed the official establishment of a Palistinian state many, many years ago, unconditionally. Israel is self rightous and thinks they can do no wrong, in reality their actions are the root cause of ALL muslim terrorism today. The terrorists who are attacking Israel are justified in doing so as far as I'm concerned, they are simply fighting a low-budget war to win back the land that is rightfully theirs, and fight back against the people who are killing innocent civilains and doing a number of other things to terrorize the Palistinian people, and Israel is supposed to be the "civilized" one in the conflict. We need to immeadiatly stop supporting this terrorist state, if we hadn't to begin with we would likely not be getting attacked right now. In short, Israel sickins me, and this conflict is escalating quickly, if things keep progressing the way they have been I wouldn't be at all suprised to see someone launch a nuke, and/or attack the US.

Exactly.

...people still wonder why 9/11 happened. Two thirds of the money we donate supposedly to poor nations goes to this terrorist state just so they can keep destroying the original habitants of that area.

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I heard a fantastic way to resolve this one!

So, the Palestinians are always fighting the Israelis over land, right? Well, then, why not send in a bunch of real estate agents! When it comes to the Gaza Strip, I think they're the only guys who could convince Israel it's not worth it...it'd go something like "Why would you want that? There's no view, it's far from the ocean, it's sandy and dusty, and your neighbors want to kill you!"

Little joke I heard today. Thought it might bring a little levity to the thread.

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I am not sure that joking is appropriate for a situation where innocent people, including children, are being murdered every day, and a fantastic city is being leveled to the ground. I see what led to this conflict and all of the fingers for fault on this point straight back to Washington. The peace process fell apart when Bush took office and like every other promise he has made, there is now no peace in this part of the world. They have been so obsessed by Iraq since 2000 that nothing else has mattered, and now we see the end result.

I am simply ashamed of our govenment when photos of dying and maimed people are on being shown along side Condelissa Rice who can only repeat platitudes "Israel must have the right to defend itself" when refusing to consider a ceasefire. The entire world wants this to stop, yet here we are again and Bush and his cronies are going against the rest of the world and pushing for more war. Do they actually think this is going to accomplish anything? Iraq has proven that you can't go into a country with guns blazing and attempt to solve problems, but the war mongers don't care. The world is going to hate us for decades because of this.

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My view is simplistic at best, but I find myself supporting Israel in this. Hezbollah DOES attack them regularly and noone blinks an eye...so Israel has to blink for itself. The Lebonese government is in a bad spot I agree. They have to support Hezbollah for the simple fact that Hezbollah is the real power in the country. Kick Hezbollah out? The Lebonese Government cannot do this. That is a bad spot to be in when Hezbollah's primary and far more powerful enemy get's tired of having rockets fired into it's cities. As far as Israel's attack being out of proportion...what has proportionate response ever gotten them? Endless war and terrorism. Israel is thinking...right or wrong...that they need a DISproportionate response in order to make any impact on this enemy.

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My view is simplistic at best, but I find myself supporting Israel in this. Hezbollah DOES attack them regularly and noone blinks an eye...so Israel has to blink for itself. The Lebonese government is in a bad spot I agree. They have to support Hezbollah for the simple fact that Hezbollah is the real power in the country. Kick Hezbollah out? The Lebonese Government cannot do this. That is a bad spot to be in when Hezbollah's primary and far more powerful enemy get's tired of having rockets fired into it's cities. As far as Israel's attack being out of proportion...what has proportionate response ever gotten them? Endless war and terrorism. Israel is thinking...right or wrong...that they need a DISproportionate response in order to make any impact on this enemy.

doesn't israel also attack palestine fairly regularly?

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As an American Jew most people seem to assume that I walk in lockstep with the Israelis. I don't. While Hezbollah may have started this particular conflict there is so much blame on both sides built on countless decades of religious strife that its impossible and pointless to try and ascribe blame. Military conflict will not solve the problem. Hezbollah needs to be permanently moved back and then eventually disarmed. Only a UN peacekeeping force with major teeth and firepower can accomplish this.The weak Lebanese government needs to be empowered to confront Hezbollah and that can only be achieved through direct talks with their sponsors: Iran and Syria. To use a term I am sick of hearing but is apt: you don't make peace with your friends, you make peace with your enemies. Bush's blind adherence to "bad guy" vs "good guy" countries is obtuse and self defeating. His dad did not suffer this delusion and made Hafez Al Assad of Syria an ally. Assad was a brutal dictator just like his son is now but he was pragmatic and a realist and someone you could do business with. Bush the son believes in Boy Scout Foreign Policy. So I don't agree with the Bush administration on much but I do concur with Secretary Rice that just calling for an immediate ceasefire without outlining a buffer zone with armed peacekeeprs is simply setting us up for failure. If we just go back to the status quo before this latest war, six months or a year from now Hezbollah will have gotten new supplies from Iran and Syria and will start obbing rockets all over again and no progress towards lasting peace will have been made.

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The really sad thing in this as while Israel and Iran go at it, tens of thousands of Lebonese, Palestinians, and Jews, who really want to live peacefully with each other are going to be subjugated to the horrors of war. Much of Lebanon resembles a modern european country with a decent law abiding middle class, and they are now having to run to the borders with their children for their lives. I am surprised that anyone here would think it is a good thing to hurl bombs at these people.

All I'll add to this post is a few recommendations (I'm not prepared to be an armchair general on this conflict), to anyone with netflix or a good indie video store:

A film from 1998 entitled West Beirut, and an Oscar-nominated documentary from 2000 entitled Promises. Both would relate to the present situation, both focus on the human side of the story (over the sectarian), and both are completely compelling:

West Beirut was directed by Ziad Douieri, now one of Tarantino's assistant directors. Douieri was a teenager in Beirut when the 75-90 civil war first erupted, and the film is heavily autobiographical - he grew up in a secular, well-educated (both parents were lawyers) family. The film follows his fictional surrogate, his best friend, and a Christian girlfriend through what starts as adventures, but swiftly descends into the terror of watching the city ripped apart, as warfare invades one's personal life.

Promises was directed by B.Z. Goldberg and Carlos Bolado, and was shot in Jerusalem and in Palestinian camps adjacent to Jerusalem. The film cuts between Goldberg's interviews with a group of Palestinian and Israeli children over a period of years, and he lets them shape the documentary as they (at first) parrot the views of (presumably) their parents, but develop into some occasionally surprising opinions of their own. This is far and away the most humanistic and 'balanced' investigation of the Israel/Palestine conflict I've run across thus far.

Both films make it more difficult to watch the current developments as 'sides' are abstractions in both, a chess game between self-styled leaders who won't have to deal with the day-to-day nightmare of living through such experiences.

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Yes.

The Israelies bombed an apartment complex this morning and killed 57 people including 12 children. News is here. This is what happens when war mongerers are in charge of the USA. Rice is rumored to be headed home having completely failed to convince anyone that the USA's plan for no cease fire until Hezbollah is completely disarmed is a good idea. You can't have negotiations when you completely refuse to talk to the other side. Certainly the relatives of these poor unfortunate people won't think so and will blame the USA for this for the rest of their lives.

This is what war mongerers do. As I said earlier, Bush never saw a war that he didn't like and this is another example of that.

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Israel is in the midst of hostility that the rest of us in the West would find unimaginable.

Israel must protect itself from this hostility. I hope the West never abandons Israel. It's the only free democracy in the entire area.

I have nothing but admiration for the Israeli people and their desire to exist.

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Israel is in the midst of hostility that the rest of us in the West would find unimaginable.

Israel must protect itself from this hostility. I hope the West never abandons Israel. It's the only free democracy in the entire area.

I have nothing but admiration for the Israeli people and their desire to exist.

This is a rare occassion where I must defend a nation that must protect its borders. The only reason civilians are being killed in Lebanon is because Hezballah puts them in harms way - the cowards that they are - hiding their locations behind civilian areas. I am deeply upset that there are civilian casualties, but that is the fault of Hezballah, not Israel.

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This "Israel must be able to defend itself" is nothing but a spin to justify needless violence. Israel has the most modern military in the world outside of the USA and it is the only nuclear power in the middle east. It can defend itself against any provacation. This is not what is happening here and the end result of the bombing is going to change anything. The only thing left now, is how many more innocent people are going to be killed.

There are other solutions to this problem than bombing innocents. It's as simple as this:

  • Both sides exchange the hostages they are holding.

  • Israel stop building new settlements in the West Bank and return control to the Palestians

  • Create the state of Palestine consisting of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank

  • Hammas and Hezbollah disarm

This is all that it would take to end the violence, but it requires all of the sides to talk and make concessions. It also takes leadership from the USA to make it happen and this is where we are lacking as we have no effective leader in this country. Cowboy and gunboat diplomacy only kills people and gets nothing done.

If the USA can negotiate a peace between Israel and Egypt, then it is possible to do the above. Egypt laid down its arms against Israel and the two countries have been at peace for almost 30 years. This would not have happened without the USA providing the framework for it to happen.

Diplomacy is always preferable to bombing, but unfortunatly this approach is not being taken.

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metro I agree with most of your observations. I especially agree that true diplomatic successes are not going to occur with this current administration.

The current administration is an absolute embarrassment. I pity Americans going abroad, because I can just imagine the questions and comments they would hear!!!

To achieve successful diplomacy, you must be against war. And as said in a previous post, this administration seems to LIKE WAR:(

To achieve successful diplomacy, you must have brains. Jimmy Carter had brains i.e. the peace treaty between Israel and Egypt. Bush is only of average intelligence (at best).

I guess this Middle Eastern war will have to be brokered by Israel or the EU etc. The States is currently a basket case in the world's eyes, when it comes to achieving peace.

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I usually avoid issues like this. But I thought I'd go ahead and throw in my two cents as well. While I can understand Israel needing to protect itself and such it does seem to me that they have gone over the line. Not just in the civilian loss of life but in do much destruction of civilian infrastructure. It's hard for me to take sides because I guess it'a hard for me to relate to this problem. I have no ties to this area and I'm not Jewish or Muslim. I guess I see aspects for both sides. Both sides feel they have claims on the land for religious reasons. It was the Romans who caused the diaspora. The land was in Muslim hands for hundreds of years. Much longer than the age of the US. Only to be taken away and given away from outside nations at the end of WWII. But either way laying claim to land like this is a dangerous game. Wasn't it Hitler who started WWII in the first place because he was annexing land that had traditionally been popluated with Germanic people for centuries? Anyway to be honest it's hard to see any solution here in the near future. Bother sides remain firm and I don't see either giving up much to compromise. It would be nice to see the US take a little more of an active role here. But I don't know if it will happen. Hezbollah has ties to Iran, which of course the US isn't getting along with particularly well. One of the reasons why I think the US hasn't gotten more involved. Another is the fact that while all of this probably would have been better if UN forces had tried to dismantle Hezbollah, the US doesn't want to seem hypocritical for Israel for going out on their own on this. Because the US did the same thing in Iraq instead of having UN forces do it. Anyway just some points I thought I'd throw out there. Some of it has been mentioned by others, but anyway just how I see it from my perspective.

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Israel is in the midst of hostility that the rest of us in the West would find unimaginable.

Israel must protect itself from this hostility. I hope the West never abandons Israel. It's the only free democracy in the entire area.

I have nothing but admiration for the Israeli people and their desire to exist.

While if forced to choose a side, I'd probably have to side with Isarael... but the current activities are gross and should be shunned by every civilized nation. It's unfortunate that our ties to Israel are turning us into enthusiastic cheerleaders for Israel.

But the concept of Israel being a "free democracy" is a bit idealistic. Muslims in Israel have been treated as second-class citizens... there are alot of parallels between this and the civil rights movement in the US. One major difference: the Israel's opression has been ignored, if not endorsed, by most of the developed world.

That's not to say terrorism is justified. It's not. But the overwhelming majority of muslims are not terrorists.

I wonder how things would have been different had the Middle East not become the chessboard for the Cold War.

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This "Israel must be able to defend itself" is nothing but a spin to justify needless violence. Israel has the most modern military in the world outside of the USA and it is the only nuclear power in the middle east. It can defend itself against any provacation. This is not what is happening here and the end result of the bombing is going to change anything. The only thing left now, is how many more innocent people are going to be killed.

There are other solutions to this problem than bombing innocents. It's as simple as this:

  • Both sides exchange the hostages they are holding.

  • Israel stop building new settlements in the West Bank and return control to the Palestians

  • Create the state of Palestine consisting of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank

  • Hammas and Hezbollah disarm

This is all that it would take to end the violence, but it requires all of the sides to talk and make concessions. It also takes leadership from the USA to make it happen and this is where we are lacking as we have no effective leader in this country. Cowboy and gunboat diplomacy only kills people and gets nothing done.

If the USA can negotiate a peace between Israel and Egypt, then it is possible to do the above. Egypt laid down its arms against Israel and the two countries have been at peace for almost 30 years. This would not have happened without the USA providing the framework for it to happen.

Diplomacy is always preferable to bombing, but unfortunatly this approach is not being taken.

You have a good solution, but you have to know that hezballah will not disarm. They have been the agressors this time. They are the ones hiding behind their women and children. I believe that some innocent civilians have been killed. I also believe that some of them were forced to stay by these people.

I don't think that its possible to negotiate a lasting peace with a group who is 1) not a legitimate government and 2) whose sole reason for existance is to eliminate you.

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I don't think that its possible to negotiate a lasting peace with a group who is 1) not a legitimate government and 2) whose sole reason for existance is to eliminate you.

I think negotation and its low chance of success is better than violence and its lower chance of success.

The only time that violence can lead to peace is if one group is completely defeated through that violence. But because of the transient nature of terrorist netoworks, I'm not sure that it is really possible. But I do know that harming innocents does a good job of breeding terrorism.

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American made 3000 lb bombs are being dropped on innocent Lebanon citizens from American made jets, flying on American refined jet fuel. There is no moral justification for that. Lebanon is a democratic country and one that is supposed to be an ally of the USA.

I'll be damned to hell if we ever become allies with Lebanon. The same nation where about more than half back the hezbollah and even elected them into government positions.

The same terrorists that killed 241 Marines that were on a peace mission.

I would gladly take Israel over them any day.

Also, what does it matter if they are using American made weaponry? I'm a bit tired of this statement, is it supposed to mean something or is it another-United States supports the killings of innocent muslims by the Israelis? It's like being angry at Ford, because someone in a Mustang ran over a cop. If we stop selling them weapons they can buy them elsewhere or build and design their own. If you want there to be less civilian casualties tell hezbollah to stop hiding and setting up military bases around them.

It's funny Israel kills innocent civilians and the world pounces to condemn them. Hezbollah launches rockets that land randomly and they're filled with ball bearings for shrapnel and no one says a thing.

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I'll be damned to hell if we ever become allies with Lebanon. The same nation where about more than half back the hezbollah and even elected them into government positions.

Isn't this the goal of democracy? Lebanon was a stable secular democratically elected government, what Bush has tried to produce in Iraq, yet we are allowing them to be bombed. While 200+ marines did get killed, (I know a marine from my highschool that was injured in that blast), the locals saw them as an invading force and these nations have learned the tactics needed to combat the world's largest military. The tactic worked as the USA military pulled out and has not been back since.

And while the death of the Marines was tragic, far far far more Lebonise have died at what they see at the hands of the American backed Israel military. They are just as angry about it and this is why they continue to support groups such as Hezbollah. The shelling of innocent people using our weapondry is only going to make it worse.

There was no excuse for the killing of 241 marines, there is no excuse for the killing of close to 1000 Lebonese civilians and the leveling of vast areas of Lebanon in the last two weeks. There is no difference. As I said earlier, the end result of this is already known, the only think left are the number of people that must die until we get to that result.

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