Israel-Lebanon Conflict

[Mikejesmike]

Israel has finally said enough? I think this is a much more complicated problem. At the same time that this is about Hezbolla sending rockets, 2 soldiers, etc, this is also about arab territory arbitrarily given to the Jewish state, years of abuses, 250 000 people taken away from their land when Israel was first created, 75 % of palestines living in Gaza in financially inhuman conditions, lack of international assistance, (help from other arab nations has been blockaded), and, again, years of abuses.

How would you feel if suddenly they decide to take you away from home and give part of all the Americans to an independent indigenous government, because it was their land before?

Last I remember Jews were living there before the Arabs, before they were kicked out so I guess the circle of life keeps rolling, maybe a thousand years from now they'll kick the jews out. That territory was controlled by the Ottoman Empire, then by the British who helped create Israel out of an empire. Isn't it a bit funny that this whole we need a Palestinian Nation only seems to have started after Israel was created? Where was this uprising when they were ruled by the Ottomans? It seems that the people across that area cared more about there being a Jewish majority nation in their midst than the fact that their long suffering Palestinians had no nation. It was the godsend the arab leaders secretly wanted. Now if anything goes wrong in their nation just say Israel is the reason why to take the heat off them.

Notice how they complain about wanting to free Palestine? Why not Jordan too? That's part of Palestine. It's because Jordan is a muslim majority nation.

Indigenous does not a government make. In this world to claim a land you must have a government. Just because people are living somewhere doesn't automatically make it theirs. Al Tilly The Bum (farside) can't just plop himself down in 10 acres of the Rocky Mountains and have 5 generations born there and claim it as their own land.

The sooner the Arab muslims surrounding Israel realize that Israel is not going anywhere. The better things will get for them when they try to work with each other than against each other. At some point in time the American Indians had to come to the same terms. Same for the Berbers of Morocco when the Arabs showed up. When you're fighting a losing battle you might as well accept it.

As for the 250,000 kicked out, I can't reply on it as I read conflicting statements.

[monsoon]

Well actually prior to Israel, the area was the country of Palestine, which was under British Rule.

But WWII happened and Christians gassed 6 million Jews in Europe, so the Christian nations that won the war decided instead to partition off part of Palestine for the Jews, so they could move from Europe to the Middle East.

There are many Palestinians who had their land taken from them and they were forced out in order to give Jews a home. A lot of bitterness remains over this. However this would have most likely died off by now if Israel had not occupied the Gaza Strip, and built extensive settlements in the West Bank. Currently Israel occupies much of the land that was partitioned off for the Palestinians which is the entire basis for the current conflict. This isn't as one sided as you are making it out to be. The Palestinans living in these zones, have no government, no leadership, no economy, and live on handouts from the rest of the world. They can't travel nor even move between the zones with out permission from the IDF. This is mostly at Israels doing under the guise of security. A nation can't marginialize tens millions of people in ghettos and not expect a response. The Jews should know this better than anyone else, but they don't seem to remember this lesson from WWII.

Assuming that Israel with its US supplied military might completey destroys Hammas and Hezbollah, do you actually think it will make any difference? There will still be millions living miserable lives at the hands of Israel and now their lives are even worse as they have no electricity, no running water, and their infrastructure has been destroyed.

I completely disagree this is the approach that should be used to solve this problem as it won't fix anything. War mongering, as we have discovered yet again in Iraq, only serves to destroy the innocent, doesn't solve the real issues, and only makes the long term problems worse.

[Mikejesmike]

Look at all the land the Palestinians could have had before Israel was attacked. My dad has continuously said Jerusalem should be controlled by the UN, I didn't know this was an actual plan, he probably didn't know either.

I will agree that Israel should never had built settlements on captured land, especially if it was considering giving the land back in the future for peace, like the Sinai peninsula and the Golan Heights.

Now is the time for Palestinians to sign a peace agreement and declare their independence before anymore land could potentially be lost.

[waccamatt]

Israel has not made unprovoked attacks on Arabs during its existence. If you go back thousands of years, this (Canaan, Palestine, Israel) was originally the home of the Jewish people, many of whom were run out over the centuries by the Greeks, the Romans and the Arabs. When Israel was given back to the Jewish people in 1948 I believe it was back in the rightful hands and certainly the relatively few Palestinian residents had done little with this territory. Israel has been repeatedly attacked by its Arab neighbors since 1948, but peace has been made with the governments of Egypt and Jordan. Hezbollah makes the current attacks look like they are against civilians because they purposely place their military operations in areas where civilians live and purposely place civilians in harm's way. I believe Israel should protect its interests with as much force as is necessary.

That said, George Bush has made no effort to secure peace in the region and he is a bumbling fool as President to have let tensions escalate to where they are. I believe he wants to draw Iran into the conflict so he has an excuse to invade Iran before the elections in November. I had to sound jaded, but I believe he is that much of an opportunist.

[waccamatt]

I've always considered myself Pro-Israel. I believe they have a right to defend themselves against hostility. The manner and scope of their recent military actions, however, are way off base. Please remember that the "forces in Lebanon" that you mention are separate and distinct from Lebanon, the sovereign state. Hezbollah is an independent group and does not act under the authority of the the Lebanese government or the general Lebanese public. It is totally inappropriate then, that Israel has placed the entire country under attack for the actions of a relatively small group of people. Israel has unapologetically attacked major highways, bridges, power stations, the airport, and has placed all major ports under blockade. The young Lebanese government is helpless and the national economy is halted.

Perhaps a better question is, why should the Lebanese people have to bear the punishment of someone else's war?

The destruction of major public infastructure and the economic siege of an entire country are not appropriate ways to "respond back" to an independent terrorist cell.

I think what you are forgetting is that it IS the government of Lebanon that is allowing Hezbollah to operate from their country. Israel is attacking targets of Hezbollah strongholds and Hezbollah's means (Beirut's airport) of getting arms from Iran.

Regarding the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, I don't think Israel should have developed these areas, but they did give the captured Sinai Peninsula back to Egypt, which had been captured during the 1967 war, another time Israel had been attacked. Another item mentioned is that a couple million Palestinians live free in Israel today under democratic rule with western-type freedoms.

[GRCentro]

I think what you are forgetting is that it IS the government of Lebanon that is allowing Hezbollah to operate from their country.

Sorry, that really does not appear to be true.

From BBCNEWS.com:

Israel has made it absolutely clear that it holds the Lebanese government responsible for the kidnapping of its soldiers by Hezbollah.

Many analysts see this as unfair.

Even though Hezbollah is operating from Lebanese territory and the militant group has two ministers in the Lebanese government, the central government is almost powerless to influence the militant group.

Also, keep in mind that the new Lebanese government had been largely cooperative with the U.S. Now however, we refuse to advocate on their behalf.

[waccamatt]

Sorry, that really does not appear to be true.

From BBCNEWS.com:

Also, keep in mind that the new Lebanese government had been largely cooperative with the U.S. Now however, we refuse to advocate on their behalf.

Let me see if I get this right: a terrorist organization is operating within your country and you're powerless to do anything with them? Yeah, right.

[g-man430]

Let me see if I get this right: a terrorist organization is operating within your country and you're powerless to do anything with them? Yeah, right.

Actually, GRCentro is right, Waccamatt. They were talking on CNN earlier tonight about this. Hezbollah is a lot more powerful and has a lot more members than the Lebanese government and their military and if the prime minister of that country tries to do anything to stop it, they will over-rule him, his military, his government, and possibly even kill him.

[waccamatt]

Actually, GRCentro is right, Waccamatt. They were talking on CNN earlier tonight about this. Hezbollah is a lot more powerful and has a lot more members than the Lebanese government and their military and if the prime minister of that country tries to do anything to stop it, they will over-rule him, his military, his government, and possibly even kill him.

Then they should be glad to get rid of them.

[TheBostonian]

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict could be the most tangled up and confusing problem in our world. To believe that one side is right requires some serious simplification and that is easy to do considering how convoluted all of it is. The conflict tends also to become part of the larger international conflicts of the day, as with the region being carved up by the UN after WWII, virtual proxy wars being fought with US weapons and support versus Soviet weapons and support in the cold war and now it is in many ways considered to be part of the cause of global terrorism.

A professor said to my class that he notices that when one learns more about the conflict, your opinions evaporate and you start playing devil's advocate when others opine. I read up on it because whenever I would ask someone about it they would give me so much more opinion than fact. But even after digging through the history and reading crap so dense that it is nearly unreadable, I still have to fight my stubborn opinions that cloud my mind. It is hard to make definitive statements about this issue because there is almost always a "but".

The Jews can't be denied a homeland after the Holocaust. BUT: Should the Palestinians pay for Europe's sins? BUT: Initially the Jews simply rightfully bought land from its owners. BUT: Labor Zionists, not wanting to rule over the natives, hired only Jews to farm the land, thereby displacing the Palestinian Arabs.

The Jews kicked the majority of the Palestinians out of Israel. BUT: Palestinians and other Arabs were attacking Israel with the goal of eliminating it.

Israel, as the only democracy in the region, deserves our support. BUT: Democracy is something Israel fears greatly, with the risk of an increasing number of non-Jewish citizens in time voting the Judaism out of Israel. Also, Turkey is a democracy. We've helped depose the elected goverment of Iran. And democracy made Hamas the legitimate government of the Palestinian people.

The United Nations established the state of Israel, so it is valid and has a right to defend its borders. BUT: The UN's charter forbids holding onto land gained through military conquest for long after the conflict. BUT: Israel needs to keep some acquired land as a defense buffer. BUT: People live in these parts and are suffering.

One group was there before the other. BUT: How far back do you go? To the biblical Kingdom of Israel? To the Canaanites and Philistines? BUT: These were not legitimate, democratic states as we know today.

And so on...

[okinawatyphoon]

1. Israel has more of a right to exist than the terrorist groups. They own such a tiny sliver of land compared to the muslim world, so we should take that away?

2. As God's chosen people, the Israelites will defeat any enemy that tries to attack them. Israel could easily take Iran, Syria, and Lebanon. remember the 7 day's war? Israel has proven itself quite powerful.

3. Notice how supporters of Israel and non-supporters are doing. The United States is the most prosperous nation in the world, and one of Israel's largest supporters. Look at the mid-east. Poverty everywhere. Most of the people that hate Israel are doing terribly while those who support them prosper. It is not written in stone, but you have to see the parallels and wonder why.

[monsoon]

Keep in mind the earlier wars between Arab states and Israel prior to 1980, were in part, proxy wars of between the Soviet Union and the USA. Neither side could have waged these wars without significant arms being supplied by but superpowers. Both superpowers where doing this in attempts from keeping the other side from gaining vast influence in the area.

The present conflict is really a proxy war between Iran and Israel (Syria is in a support role with Iran as well). The reason it is happening now is because Iran has emerged as the new power in the region and one that has to be bargained with. Bush's War to conquer Saddam Hussein was a huge gift to Iran. This is so because:

• Bush removed Iran's biggest enemy in the region. Iraq has routinely attacked and challenged Iran over the years and now that country does not have to worry about that anymore.

• The Iraqi government that Bush has installed is controlled by crapes which is very sympathetic to the crapes that control Iran. When the Iranian hostage situation was taking place, crapes were routinely described as enemy's to democracy, now they are embraced by Bush and his cronies. Absolutely amazing.

• Iraq was a counterbalance to Iran. Iran could not make moves in the middle east without considering the consequences of what Saddam might do.

• The USA military is basically impotent against the insurgency in Iraq. It's taught them all how to fight overwhelming military power. (though Vietnam was a good lesson too).

So Bush's war mongering has produced a new regional superpower in the middle east and one that will soon have nuclear bombs. They are flexing their muscle and this conflict is being waged by Israel in an attempt to blunt this power, though they will ultimately fail.

The really sad thing in this as while Israel and Iran go at it, tens of thousands of Lebonese, Palestinians, and Jews, who really want to live peacefully with each other are going to be subjugated to the horrors of war. Much of Lebanon resembles a modern european country with a decent law abiding middle class, and they are now having to run to the borders with their children for their lives. I am surprised that anyone here would think it is a good thing to hurl bombs at these people.

The Lebonese Prime Minister is begging for a cease fire so the people can get out, and begging for international help to come in and help resolve this situation. Normally the USA would be brokering a peace deal, but our President, who loves the religious extremists in the USA, had decided there is only one side in this conflict, Israel. So Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition. He never saw a war he didn't like.

Fortunately the European Union is headed there and hopefully they can find some common territory so the shelling and rocket attacks end. Diplomacy is always preferred to war mongering, as its alway the innocent that end up paying the heavy price for idiot leaders.

[okinawatyphoon]

edit.

[runawayjim]

1. Israel has more of a right to exist than the terrorist groups. They own such a tiny sliver of land compared to the muslim world, so we should take that away?

2. As God's chosen people, the Israelites will defeat any enemy that tries to attack them. Israel could easily take Iran, Syria, and Lebanon. remember the 7 day's war? Israel has proven itself quite powerful.

3. Notice how supporters of Israel and non-supporters are doing. The United States is the most prosperous nation in the world, and one of Israel's largest supporters. Look at the mid-east. Poverty everywhere. Most of the people that hate Israel are doing terribly while those who support them prosper. It is not written in stone, but you have to see the parallels and wonder why.

when religion starts to come into play, there's a whole new can of worms opening up. i'm not a religious person, so i couldn't tell you if the jews were originally in israel or if we put them there because the bible calls it "the holy land". regardless of that, though, many arabs were throw out so that we could put the jews somewhere. the terrorist groups exist because the arabs have basically been manhandled by the west. their governments weren't doing anything, so these militant groups came to be.

the mid-east has been a war zone for as long as it has existed. there's no reason to believe that will change. so my answer to this is keep the west out of it and they'll eventually just blow each other off the face of the planet and we won't have to worry about them anymore. israel might be under attack by terrorists, but they have also been known to kill innocent civilians themselves, which is a form of terrorism if you ask me. and i say the same goes for what our country has done in iraq.

[okinawatyphoon]

israel might be under attack by terrorists, but they have also been known to kill innocent civilians themselves, which is a form of terrorism if you ask me. and i say the same goes for what our country has done in iraq.

Nobody likes violence. It is a terrible thing. But you seem to be saying that you prefer to have millions in mass graves and killed by their own government than to have us step in and only thousands be killed? thousands is terrible, but better than millions if you ask me.

[runawayjim]

Nobody likes violence. It is a terrible thing. But you seem to be saying that you prefer to have millions in mass graves and killed by their own government than to have us step in and only thousands be killed? thousands is terrible, but better than millions if you ask me.

what government is killing millions?

[okinawatyphoon]

what government is killing millions?

Saddam's was. Can you agree that less bloodshed is better than more?

[runawayjim]

Saddam's was. Can you agree that less bloodshed is better than more?

i do agree... but i also believe that out government should take care of the issues at home before taking care of other people's issues.

[Gusterfell]

Saddam's was. Can you agree that less bloodshed is better than more?

More Iraqi civilians have died in the three years of the US occupation than died in the entire period between the first and second gulf wars. So yes, I do agree that less bloodshed is better, and that's another reason we never should have invaded a sovereign nation.

[skylinefan]

It is amazing how much emotion people have when discussing the Middle East, especially the never ending conflict between the Palestinians and the Isrealis. Like a previous post made clear Isreal needs to seek some type of peaceful coexistence with the Palestinians and the Palestinians need to understand that Isreal is not going anywhere and they need to come to grips with that once and for all. Will this guarantee peace forever in the middle east No. With so many Nations around the world poking their noses into this conflict there may never be a utopia in this region, but I do believe this accomodation will lessen the tension in the region.

I wholeheartedly agree with the earlier post that our invasion of Iraq has only emboldened the Iranians and certainly has made them stronger in the region. I predicted this would happen before we invaded Iraq a soveriegn country that never before attacked the US despite Bush's Lies. This latest conflict with Hezbolah underscores the unintentional consequences of inept foriegn policy in the middle east.

[runawayjim]

It is amazing how much emotion people have when discussing the Middle East, especially the never ending conflict between the Palestinians and the Isrealis. Like a previous post made clear Isreal needs to seek some type of peaceful coexistence with the Palestinians and the Palestinians need to understand that Isreal is not going anywhere and they need to come to grips with that once and for all. Will this guarantee peace forever in the middle east No. With so many Nations around the world poking their noses into this conflict there may never be a utopia in this region, but I do believe this accomodation will lessen the tension in the region.

I wholeheartedly agree with the earlier post that our invasion of Iraq has only emboldened the Iranians and certainly has made them stronger in the region. I predicted this would happen before we invaded Iraq a soveriegn country that never before attacked the US despite Bush's Lies. This latest conflict with Hezbolah underscores the unintentional consequences of inept foriegn policy in the middle east.

didn't clinton (and i'll probably get chastised for mentioning him) have some sort of peace agreement between sharon and whoever was prime minister in israel at the time?

[skylinefan]

didn't clinton (and i'll probably get chastised for mentioning him) have some sort of peace agreement between sharon and whoever was prime minister in israel at the time?

Yes he did broker a peace deal between Barak and Yasser Arafat. The one thing that I can say about Clinton is that at least he was engaged in this conflict and attempted to get the two sides talking. This current administration is so bogged down in Iraq that they have hardly paid scant attention to the situation in Isreal and Palestine.

This goes to show that the solution to this conflict is not going to come from the US, Europe, Iran, Syria or any other country but from the Palestininians and Isrealis themselves.

[runawayjim]

can't we all just get along? seriously... why is it so bad that there are western religions in these countries?

[monsoon]

As I said earlier, Israel exists completely at the good graces of the USA. It is our administration that determines if a peace process moves forward or not. The most notible success was when Jimmy Carter brokered a historic peace deal between Israel and Egypt. Prior to this they were mortal enemies and had fought numerous wars with each other. This peace deal, which has been in place almost 30 years now, has led to good relations between Egypt and Israel and they both recognized each other diplomatically, economically, and even aid each other in times of need. Carter won the Nobel Peace Prize for this.

A good leader should work tirelessly to stop and prevent war as war only brings suffering to the innocent.

[waccamatt]

A good leader should work tirelessly to stop and prevent war as war only brings suffering to the innocent.

I guess on the flip side, a bad leader should work tirelessly to start and encourage war, which brings suffering to the innocent. I wonder who I could be describing?