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Street Level Retail in Downtown Charlotte


monsoon

Are they developing Great Retail in Downtown Charlotte?  

98 members have voted

  1. 1. Are they developing Great Retail in Downtown Charlotte? (Please read the Link first)

    • No - It still misses the mark, too much focus on the building, not people
      80
    • Yes - It great and getting better
      15
    • I don't believe that document
      3


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I have a hard time even considering Overstreet a retail corridor. Its basically a dressed up food court for the worker bees. There is no reason for anyone else to venture in there even if they could find it. Epicentre does seem to very silo oriented in the renderings and really does not lend itself to creating a walkable district.

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I got the same impression from the model, but we need to wait to see more details. The preliminary renderings showed plenty of street retail on Trade and College. With the hotel I doubt 4th will be anything to rave about. We'll see.

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Portland has large department stores downtown (in fact, they have an overstreet mall called Pioneer Place) There is a Saks and Nordstrom downtown.

I can't think of any vibrant shopping district in an urban setting that doesn't have departments stores....SoHo was until Bloomie's opened up.

Though department stores aren't the best land use from an urban landscape point of view, they really do bring a critical mass of retail that leads to smaller shops.

You are correct about Pioneer Square, but having lived in Portland for 7 years, those stores don't draw. In fact Pioneer square while a nice spot pales in comparison to the countless retail that exists on nearly every street, in downtown Portland.

In fact in Portland's case they have struggled to keep those to tennants in Pioneer square for the reason that Lloyd Center draws the bulk of business.

It's kinda similar to the EpiCenter thing. Pioneer Square & The EpiCenter would be a "similar" comparison.

It's not really a good model.

How do we get street level retail down town? As long as the space is accounted for in every new project, & all these codos get built it will def come.

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I think the likelihood of a department store coming back to Uptown is slim, but if one did come, I don't think it would be a bad thing. Portland, by the way, has a Meier & Frank department store downtown.

Also the Meyer & Frank & the Nordstroms & Saks, NONE of them are based in any way similar to the Belks & Ivey's or Sears of Charlotte 25 years ago.

Any major department store such as these would have a tough time ancoring street side.

I worked in downtown Charlotte in 1979 when the orginal Belks, Iveys and Sears were all still there. These stores were not dead, but they did suffer from neglect and they were fairly rundown especially when compared to their spiffy news stores at Eastland & Southpark. However they still generated a lot of street life, I think because they were fairly unique places, offered places to eat, and were well connected to the street. The block around what is now the BofA tower and across the street in the old Independence building was lined with stores as described in the link above. Sure there were whores, homeless, and bums but all real American cities have these.

Flash forward 15 years and Belks, Sears, Iveys, and all the Trade St./Tryon St. retail is gone. All of the street level retail at Trade & Tryon has been replaced by BofA monumental buildings. Street life has been virtually eliminated outside of business hours. Even the whores left. I've posted some photos of this period elsewhere on the forum.

I think to get back what we had in 1979, department stores should return and offer something very unique that would give people a reason to go downtown. I've said this before, but downtown needs a signature store like Harrolds in London or Sogo in Yokohama. Something like this would bring a lot of people to shop in the center city instead of going to SP. In the best of all worlds, Southpark would be closed and all of that retail would be moved to downtown.

I was just saying that 20-25 years ago these stores were dead. 1979 is nearer to the 40 year mark, they might of had some life way back then but if they'd stayed viable options for retail, they'd still be there.

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department stores should return and offer something very unique that would give people a reason to go downtown. I've said this before, but downtown needs a signature store like Harrolds in London or Sogo in Yokohama. Something like this would bring a lot of people to shop in the center city instead of going to SP. In the best of all worlds, Southpark would be closed and all of that retail would be moved to downtown.
Though I contend (as you might imagine) that SouthPark probably won't go anywhere so long as there is a poulation willing to support it, I agree with your point on department stores needing to offer a more complete retail and social experience. Something that engages the street in its design and orientation will definately pull pedestrian traffic.
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Though I contend (as you might imagine) that SouthPark probably won't go anywhere so long as there is a poulation willing to support it, I agree with your point on department stores needing to offer a more complete retail and social experience. Something that engages the street in its design and orientation will definately pull pedestrian traffic.

I agree completely, and I think that what would work in Charlotte would be ultra-luxury, to appeal to the uptown bank crowd. Greenville, SC has a department store downtown that seems to do well and it's a "rural/country" style, focused on the middle-income young families that are everywhere in Greenville. It wouldn't work in Charlotte uptown, but something targeted to the affluent would do well; I'm thinking a small Saks with neat architecture.

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1979 is nearer to the 40 year mark, they might of had some life way back then but if they'd stayed viable options for retail, they'd still be there.

Uhh, unless they have changed math from what I am familiar with, 1979 was 27 years ago, not 40. :rofl:

The viability of retail really had nothing to do with it. It was known as really bad urban renewal. Even in 1981, prior to them building the transit mall downtown, and 25 years ago there was still significant retail in and streetlife in downtown Charlotte. It had not changed much from 1979 except for the closing of Sears which killed N. Tryon leading to its decline (of which it still has not recovered). The point again is that you need department stores for a viable downtown area. You could still buy a Cadillac or Toyota right in downtown, get your tire fixed, eat in a number of moderately priced places that were still open at night.

By 1986 though, downtown Charlotte had died off quite a bit and the contined sterialization of downtown by BofA and Wachovia really did a number on the city. Add to that the complete removal of square miles of downtown of I-277 and you have something now that doesn't even come close to resembling what it looked like in the 70s.

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Well when comparing the types of retail that actually NEED to be built uptown, you have to get a little stereotypical. Look at who works uptown. You have some that make well over 200k, but just as many that make less than 80k. You have to remember that most people that work uptown are banking drones (pardon the expression, my father is one as well.) Some work in the higher ranks, but the vast majority of bank employees don't make six figures. So the debate should be, do you cater to those who work there, or do you cater to those that live AND work there? You could even include those who shop there. If that were the case, include those who go to bars and clubs there. You have now pulled a large population of college students into the equation that mostly have a retail income.

I feel and hope that Epicentre will stick to middle-income people catering to those that work and visit uptown. That would leave a need of higher end retail which could fill in on the street level around uptown. If Epicentre does not cater to those that live in TTT, Trademark, Avenue, Vue (if and when,) etc, then that leaves a huge market open for higher end retail. I would hope that that's what would fill in the bases of the condos and perhaps move into some of the spaces left in office towers that are just bland space. If a building's owner sees a high demand for high end retail, he'll be more likely to convert the ground floor to accommodate retail space. I've seen low end and high end retail survive within blocks of each other in other city's urban cores, why not Charlotte's? You have to consider the NHOF and the crowd and type of retail demand it will eventually pull. Look at the types of retail around the Speedway. Same goes for condos, bring in a crowd with high incomes, guess what will happen? If given the space, high end retail will most likely move in over time.

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Uhh, unless they have changed math from what I am familiar with, 1979 was 27 years ago, not 40. :rofl:

The viability of retail really had nothing to do with it. It was known as really bad urban renewal. Even in 1981, prior to them building the transit mall downtown, and 25 years ago there was still significant retail in and streetlife in downtown Charlotte. It had not changed much from 1979 except for the closing of Sears which killed N. Tryon leading to its decline (of which it still has not recovered). The point again is that you need department stores for a viable downtown area. You could still buy a Cadillac or Toyota right in downtown, get your tire fixed, eat in a number of moderately priced places that were still open at night.

By 1986 though, downtown Charlotte had died off quite a bit and the contined sterialization of downtown by BofA and Wachovia really did a number on the city. Add to that the complete removal of square miles of downtown of I-277 and you have something now that doesn't even come close to resembling what it looked like in the 70s.

OMG you mean I'm 10 years younger than I thought I was? :blush:

Yeah maybe I'll back off on my hate of department stores, but I hate them so much.

For example, I was in Denver, Co last week the 16th street mall (open air type) was my idea of perfect street level retail. It had everything the article talks about BUT big retail anchors. I just don't see the need for them, to have true "street level" retail.

All the stores mentioned when I was speaking of Portland are based in a indoor mall type setting which I think contradicts the whole thing.

But your right my math skills.... whew!

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The small Saks that opened in downtown Charleston on lower King has been fairly successful. There was some grumbling about overgentrification when it was first proposed. But if anything it has made King St MORE vibrant if thats even possible. Regarding streetlevel retail overall the great catalyst for King St's rebirth was The Charleston Place Hotel. The impact brought the whole corridor back to life with small shops. I am hoping that a new hotel in Uptown may spark the same formula. The differences being that Charleston had all the ingredients =empty storefronts. They were just dormant. Charlotte destroyed all of that years ago and would have to build it back in which is much tougher.

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Denver used to have a Stage department store downtown at least in the late 1990s; I remember walking by it, and there was another May Co. store downtown until maybe the mid-90s, although I'm not sure of the date. I just think that a department store or other big retail anchor is often still a catalyst for getting smaller stores to a downtown area, even if the anchor closes after the other stores arrive, such as in Denver (and remember CityFair in Charlotte?).

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Um, why?

I hate the Mall aspect of Department stores. (of course not to say I don't use them)

But more than anything I'd like to walk down town (up town) as if it were an open air mall.

Seems like you go in a department store & you enter a cavernous hole never to see the stree again until an hour or more later & then it seems like that would keep you from the street.

I mean I remember going in the Ivey's downtown as a kid & it was an even we'd stay for hours, that's hardly my idea of street level retail.

I suppose all and all "hate" is a strong word, the only retail I "hate" is Walmart.

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Denver used to have a Stage department store downtown at least in the late 1990s; I remember walking by it, and there was another May Co. store downtown until maybe the mid-90s, although I'm not sure of the date. I just think that a department store or other big retail anchor is often still a catalyst for getting smaller stores to a downtown area, even if the anchor closes after the other stores arrive, such as in Denver (and remember CityFair in Charlotte?).

They may still have those but I didn't see them from the 16th street mall.

If your familar with Denver then maybe Pearl St. in Boulder is another example you might think about.

That would be my idea of good street leve retail.

I wish down town had one street like that. Like if the Latta Arcade was on steriods.

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They may still have those but I didn't see them from the 16th street mall.

If your familar with Denver then maybe Pearl St. in Boulder is another example you might think about.

That would be my idea of good street leve retail.

I wish down town had one street like that. Like if the Latta Arcade was on steriods.

Those stores are gone from downtown Denver, unfortunately; at least the Stage was on the 16th Street mall.

Latta Arcade would be a good place for better retail- it is a C-grade mall now but could be so much better.

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I hate the Mall aspect of Department stores. (of course not to say I don't use them)

But more than anything I'd like to walk down town (up town) as if it were an open air mall.

Seems like you go in a department store & you enter a cavernous hole never to see the stree again until an hour or more later & then it seems like that would keep you from the street.

I mean I remember going in the Ivey's downtown as a kid & it was an even we'd stay for hours, that's hardly my idea of street level retail.

I suppose all and all "hate" is a strong word, the only retail I "hate" is Walmart.

Enclosed malls only became "evil" when developers oversaturated the nation with them. Up until about 1995, they were considered the ideal solution for commerce.

The problem is not the roof, the problem with enclosed malls is that there's no almost no variety to them and they're not an appropriate solution for most downtowns. I have some issues with how they are merchandised as well, but that's another topic for another day.

I think Uptown Charlotte would benefit greatly from street level activity rather than enclosed mall spaces, but department stores can contribute to both kinds of shop orientation because they bring traffic into the area and that traffic tends to spill out onto the streets.

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As an aside....I brought my laptop to lunch this past week. And I overheard ( I am naturally nosy) :lol: a guy at a table next to me say that "he has lived in New York, LA, Seattle, and Austin etc, and he has never seen the amount of energy and work going forward to improve a city more than here in Charlotte. And that the city is just taking off. Rather boosterish, of course but nice to hear.

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  • 2 weeks later...

OK, so speaking about street level retail in Charlotte, how we need more, etc. Well somebody explain to me why the Courthouse Parking Deck has 4 perfectly good street-level retail store fronts just waiting to be occupied? Seems like it would be a great spot for some cafe/restaurant tenants, with all the courthouse people, the jail employees, and government center employees. Is it just that the rent is too high?

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I just looked it up.....it will be Kokomo's Coffee House. This will be the second Kokomo's, with the other located in Huntersville.

Its actually located in a strip mall at the far corner of Highland Creek which is served by Huntersville's post office. It's a long way from the actual town.

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