Street Level Retail in Downtown Charlotte

[monsoon]

No, I have not been there. Though I am a big coffee fan and would try it, I don't get over that way that much.

[graydog]

Today's paper CBJ has a front page article on this topic. They say and tenants have confirmed that BOFA is re-doing Founders' Hall to be more street-oriented. They are targeting 2008 to align with The Ritz project. And surprise, CCCP has formed a committee to study the issue and hire a consultant.

[mallguy]

Today's paper CBJ has a front page article on this topic. They say and tenants have confirmed that BOFA is re-doing Founders' Hall to be more street-oriented. They are targeting 2008 to align with The Ritz project. And surprise, CCCP has formed a committee to study the issue and hire a consultant.

How so- just adding street entrances to the various stores, and maybe some outward-focused restaurants? Or a total revamp? Such a nice shopping center, with the marble.

[graydog]

How so- just adding street entrances to the various stores, and maybe some outward-focused restaurants? Or a total revamp? Such a nice shopping center, with the marble.

Details TBD. Trade and College will become the primary retail area.

[dubone]

The article says CMC will move out, likely to Epicentre, and that space would be converted to retail space.

I sure would hope that BofA forces some retail on College St facing the Epicentre project (on the BofA Plaza block). They have a concrete curtain wall, that is horrible for the streetscape, yet the only thing on the other side is a few measly parking spots that could easily be lost in exchange for some prime street facing real estate.

Here is the corner of 4th and College:

The outside:

The valuable use inside:

...reserved spots for utility vans.

[atlrvr]

Three spaces already have committed leases, they just haven't started building them out yet.

There will be.

Quiznos

Dry Cleaners

Coffee Shop (I think an indepedent one at that)

The 4th and final retailer in the new Meck. Courthouse parking deck will be Sabrett's which serves hotdog and hamburgers. I googled (<- should be added to the 2007 unabridged dictionary) Sabrett's an apparantly it is the manufacture of hotdogs served at Madison Square Garden. I wonder if it is coincidence, or if this new restaurant will be serving Sabrett products.

[revitalize]

Yeah, Sabretts is a famous NYC hotdog brand... they actually sell them up on Tryon st. in the hot dog carts, if I remember correctly. I had no idea they have a retail shop concept.

Very cool.

[monsoon]

So I had some out of country guests visiting and I took them downtown on a walking tour Saturday afternoon. They were fascinated by all the construction but were struck by 2 things. The amount of traffic flowing through downtown, and the absolute lack of any street activity. They wanted to know where all the people went.

The only place were there was significant activity on the street was in the area of N. Tryon between Bluementhal and the Odell building. I attribute this to the fact this is the only area in downtown that comes closest to the design goals for good public places that were presented in the first post of this thread. Beyond that there were vast dead areas. For example the area around the new NBA arena which we were promised would bring new life to downtown is instead a tremendous dead area. I suspect that we will get more of the same when they approve the baseball park. Sports venues do not create streetlife.

Likewise there is a lot of retail that has been built but because it is not directly accessable to the street, it does not do well and is closed on Saturdays because it does not attract enough people outside of business hours to stay open. It's a bad situation and despite the billions of dollars of construction that has taken place in the CBD since 1990, there is very little to show for it from a streetlife perspective. People will argue that just wait until all of the condos are filled, yet there were even no people around these places. Courtside is a glaring example. It sits in the middle of a concrete field and there is nothing around it. And the telling tale there isn't a person to be seen at all even though the weather on Saturday was perfect for walking.

When will good urban design and planning come to downtown Charlotte?

[voyager12]

That is a great question. I really hope future projects are more pedestrian friendly because I hate Uptown's "rolling tumbleweed " deadness. It is truly depressing to drive through Uptown on weekend afternoons, you would think the plague hit and everyone was dead, its so desolate of humans And its so ridiculous because Charlotte is such a thriving town and its heart should be full of life. The bar blocks are the only areas with any life. What does that say about our city's priorities? And you are right that the new condo towers and entertainment complexes are going to unfortunately serve as hermetic silos if walkable retail beyond bars catering to the party crowd are not integrated around them. I am hoping that the future Levine "urban village" or whatever they finally call it will actually be "villagelike" with a variety of retail options but I would not hold my breath.

[MZT]

Monsoon's observation reminds me of the opposite example... when I visited Victoria BC, and was struck by how many people were out walking along on the greenways on the edge of town. There wasn't anything going on... it was just nice weather.

Maybe we need some long spells of rain like British Columbia, in order to appreciate the pleasant autumns we have here.

[monsoon]

Indeed. I note there isn't too much stomach for this topic in this section. Everyone is worked up on the construction of a new baseball stadium which is going to make the problem worse.

I always say the proof is in the pudding and the lack of any significant routine streetlife in downtown Charlotte, is a good indicator the current urban planning philosophy is failing the city.

[dubone]

But it's almost like saying no one reads UP because they look at who is on here at Saturday lunch time.

The funny thing is, you would have seen all sorts of people out and about if you came on a Sunday when the Panthers were playing. I'll bet also if you'd have stayed until later than evening, when there was a concert at the arena, you'd have found many more people out and about. They are dead when there are no events, but they are dramatically alive when there are events. That is better than no events ever.

Retail isn't the only answer. There is actually great street retail on South Tryon, but the fact that there weren't many people there shows that that is just one part of the puzzle. The two major ways the have the people downtown in the first place are for there to be amenities, events, and residences. We are working on adding residences, but remember that most are not yet built. The events at the arena and the stadium create a noticeable difference.

I think most of us are long decided that uptown will not have the type of pedestrian activity until the fundamentals are built up. All new projects should have street retail, population needs to be pushed beyond 20k, employment needs to be sustained and grown, and development of any human use should be continguous.

In the mean time, all you see are bursts or activity at specific times that might or might not coincide with random people's random visits downtown.

There are plenty of times when there are lots of people out and about. But the crowds are different places at different times. You'll see lots of people walking around the residential parts of First, Fourth and Third Ward.

Like I have written elsewhere, the only spots downtown where you'll see consistent pedestrian activity is in front of the public housing facilities. They have no where else to be except models for pedestrian-counters.

Today, I've been an urban resident, an urban worker, an urban bus rider, an urban pedestrian. But I was only on the street for 20 minutes. How many thousands of people being on the street for 20 minutes does it take to fill up the streets all day? My guess is that it would take exponentially more people than we have living downtown now. That is why we all want stadium events to bring those people when the office towers aren't. Otherwise, street retail would be there by zoning rule. But the retailers would all be closed.

[appatone]

If it's any consolation Metro, I don't want a baseball stadium Uptown and also agree it would damage the urban fabric and create a no man's land.

[voyager12]

I know Charlotte is right in the midst of hurry up and wait mode regarding Uptown projects. It does get frustrating though when I travel to other cities that are smaller than Charlotte and have incredibly alive and thriving downtowns. You can really feel the difference. And And then I come home feeling jealous and its always wait until this is done or that is done and it will be "different". I think we have all the right ingredients and the wrong cooks in my personal opinion. Heck, Davidson's Main St has more life on its miniscule blocks on regular off banker hours than Uptown outside of game days and festivals. Of course the College gives them a boost but they worked hard on developing a sound strategy and it paid off. They are also integrating a mixed used town center adjoining 77 to compliment their Main St. I think Uptown could learn a lot from Davidson's development practices.

[discoverdilworth]

I think pedestrian activity has much to do with attitude and habits of a given population. There are people who walk and others who have to be forced to walk. People watching, window shopping or plain strolling up and down the street .. are habits. If a sizeable portion of the population is urban-minded, they will walk or bike instead of drive, they will seek density and they will congregate. That leads to traffic and traffic leads to life on the street and that ends up pulling in retail. Unfortunately, it doesn't work well the other way around. There are some idicators, in my opinion, that are telling signs of whether a population is heading in that direction. Arts and cultural establishments, bookstores, non-chain coffee shops, universities, unique and creative shops, small local restaurants .. etc. The type of people that frequent these places are likely to support a walkable city, increase their numbers and you will experience the effect.

[voyager12]

Sociology does play a large role. When I moved to Charlotte from downtown Charleston I made a concerted effort to find an apt in Dilworth because I like to walk everywhere as much as possible. The main draws in Uptown are based around activities that draw in people from suburbia who are going to park and go in to the venue and not wander around. There is nothing wrong with that activity but just maybe the broad spectrum of Charlotteans are not the strolling, hanging out at the locally owned bookstore, cafe types and Uptown reflects that.

[discoverdilworth]

Sociology does play a large role. When I moved to Charlotte from downtown Charleston I made a concerted effort to find an apt in Dilworth because I like to walk everywhere as much as possible. The main draws in Uptown are based around activities that draw in people from suburbia who are going to park and go in to the venue and not wander around. There is nothing wrong with that activity but just maybe the broad spectrum of Charlotteans are not the strolling, hanging out at the locally owned bookstore, cafe types and Uptown reflects that.

[voyager12]

That is so TRUE!! I feel self conscious sometimes on my strolls down to Berrybrook Farm or HT or Caribou. I also run several times a week. I like that the new art gallery has put sculpture outside. It livens things up a bit.. I would say there is moderate foot traffic and its much more bustling on the weekends when people have time to wander and nice evenings during the week the vibe around East and Scott is great. I have a rather eclectic independent schedule so I am alone out there a lot of the time

[karmst]

I, too, have become disenfranchised with the 'next big thing' in Charlotte. Like so many, I moved to Dilworth because it gave me that 'walk around, grab a coffee, read the newspaper' type of feelings. For all the good sides of living in SouthEnd, there are so many negatives about living near uptown.

Not least of which is THERE ARE HARDLY ANY PEOPLE WALKING AROUND. A perfect example is this past Friday when I walked from SouthEnd to the Post Office on McDowell in Uptown. I might have passed 2 people, and it was quite a long walk...really only a mile and a bit, but not in a straight line, as I would have hoped.

Charlotte Uptown might be fantastic in a few years, and it might have loads of stores with a B&N, record stores, clothes stores, and it might be the type of place that will be friendly to pedestrians...but please, don't be building any more sports arenas, 'cause most urbanites care more about shopping on the street and having things to do when strolling around...a baseball park is not one of these things, IMO.

Ramblings aside, I might just take myself off to Chicago...after 2 years in Charlotte, I wished for so much more...

-k

[graydog]

I think pedestrian activity has much to do with attitude and habits of a given population. There are people who walk and others who have to be forced to walk. People watching, window shopping or plain strolling up and down the street .. are habits. If a sizeable portion of the population is urban-minded, they will walk or bike instead of drive, they will seek density and they will congregate. That leads to traffic and traffic leads to life on the street and that ends up pulling in retail. Unfortunately, it doesn't work well the other way around. There are some idicators, in my opinion, that are telling signs of whether a population is heading in that direction. Arts and cultural establishments, bookstores, non-chain coffee shops, universities, unique and creative shops, small local restaurants .. etc. The type of people that frequent these places are likely to support a walkable city, increase their numbers and you will experience the effect.

[dubone]

Explain your analogy, V12. What are the current cooks doing incorrectly?

The current leaders are working to improve pedestrian safety, increase street retail, exponentially grown urban residential development, provide sufficient event locales, provide visitor amenities like parks and museums, increase transportation infrastructure and transit, increase living options for low income families downtown (note that is part of the [baseball et al deal].

The leaders have succeeded on many fronts. But it can't be any more magic than it already has been.

I agree, though, it is pitiful to compare to larger longer-standing cities that were designed before the auto-era.

[voyager12]

I don't think the current leaders are listening to the concerns expressed by myself and others in this thread. You sure as heck don't get this bluntness in the Observer. You get Booster in Chief Doug Smith and company crowing about what a great job they are doing Everything is focused on Disney style attractions and not a livable, and diverse cityscape. Which comes back to the point that its more of an organic "thing" that some cities have and some don't. If Charlotte really wanted mixed streetlevel retail in Uptown it would be here already or in the planning stages like the constant stadium obsessions. This reality leaves folks like me with East Blvd and Thomas&Central and maybe Elizabeth Ave some century from now. Those spaces get really small and really old very fast. So like so many other people I talk with, after two years here, I am going to reevaluate in another year and will move to a city that has a broad urban life if we are still stuck in neutral here.

[monsoon]

Explain your analogy, V12. What are the current cooks doing incorrectly?

......

[mallguy]

From today's Disturber, Tiffany is opening a Christmas shopping season small boutique on S. Tryon. That's exactly what I'm looking for in terms up uptown retail! Excellent!

[voyager12]

Metro summed up my thoughts rather nicely. I don't want to be negative, the momentum just seems to be going against what I like. I was looking forward to Epicentre but then I looked closer. It's going to be chiefly composed of more sports bars. Because we don't have enough of those Where are the "urban" staples: bookstores, coffee houses, galleries. There seems to be only a minority of us who want these things. And the majority rules. I just happen to think Uptown should be more than a place to go get drunk. The new museums will be beautiful but they are going to stand alone and solitary just like the ones we have now because nothing was planned around to support them and when they close in the evening it will create a feeling of even more dead space. Denver has a new museum as well but they built a village around their complex filled with a mixture of different types of residences and stores, bringing the area to life 24/7. I don't just moan on here. I have emailed officials and talked to people at parties and I just get a blank look or they talk about how the Nascar HOF and the stadiums will make everything great. That's the mindset in this town and it won't change.