Street Level Retail in Downtown Charlotte

[uptownliving]

Has anyone been to the new Peruvian Clothing Store in Latta Arcade? It is run by a local guy born in Peru who designs his own stuff. Its pretty neat and original to Charlotte.

[dubone]

I don't agree with the underlying fact that there are virtually no pedestrians downtown. I believe that is an unfair representation, simply because it is based on a few random visits. If you observed it more frequently you'd see that there are many times outside of business hours when there are thousands of people walking around. In front of my house, there are constantly pedestrians walking by at all times of day.

It is also true that the busiest times are when there are sports events. So, those projects have been successful. There will be far more visitors to the arena than there will be to the park in 3rd Ward. The same would go for the baseball stadium.

But still, there are parks in uptown right now. Fourth Ward park has decent activity levels. Did you drive by there that Saturday morning? If it doesn't meet the minimum standards of urban activity, then why the park in 3rd Ward do that?

If your friends were looking for Concord Mills type entertainment, then of course they were unhappy downtown.

The vast majority of this city does not come downtown anymore. They go to the malls in the suburbs. They would not likely come to a mall downtown even if one could possibly be built. Suburbanites come downtown to work, go to court, go to arts and entertainment events, go to restaurants and go to bars.

Uptown will never be gritty like Central or NoDa or whereever. Those things are torn down. But those other neighborhoods exist, so why should downtown try to create that. Instead, right now, uptown is taking anything it can get in the way of population density and visitorship.

But anyway, from what I understand, you guys will never be satisfied with the direction of downtown, and you'll never be in the market to live downtown. If a park and more street retail will bring you to visit, then it is a good thing those are being actively pursued. But parks and retail spots have not worked in the past to pull other kinds of people to visit. Sports and the arts have been very successful, so they are continuing that model.

[monsoon]

Metro summed up my thoughts rather nicely. I don't want to be negative, the momentum just seems to be going against what I like. I was looking forward to Epicentre but then I looked closer. It's going to be chiefly composed of more sports bars. Because we don't have enough of those Where are the "urban" staples: bookstores, coffee houses, galleries. There seems to be only a minority of us who want these things. And the majority rules. I just happen to think Uptown should be more than a place to go get drunk. The new museums will be beautiful but they are going to stand alone and solitary just like the ones we have now because nothing was planned around to support them and when they close in the evening it will create a feeling of even more dead space. Denver has a new museum as well but they built a village around their complex filled with a mixture of different types of residences and stores, bringing the area to life 24/7. I don't just moan on here. I have emailed officials and talked to people at parties and I just get a blank look or they talk about how the Nascar HOF and the stadiums will make everything great. That's the mindset in this town and it won't change.

[atlrvr]

I don't often agree with you voyager, but I think you are correct on your assessment that Charlotte officials (Center City Partners and others) are too obsessed with "things", and not worrying about people.

I concede that the NHOF, EpiCentre, and future Knights Stadium WILL attract people, but its how these people interact with the urban environment that will determine if Uptown is succesful as a pedestrian friendly place.

Just passing people hurying from their car to a destination (work, condo, attraction, etc) doesn't equal streetlife. That occurs when people chose to walk slow, pause peer in a window, comment on a architectual quirk, watch a street performer, buy a funnel cake, feed the rest of the funnel cake to pigeons, watch a kid chase the pigeon for 5 mintues.......

If Charlotte REALLY wanted to enhance the streetlife downtown, it would should look at small initiatives that don't cost money. Stop requiring taxi stations (allow them to be hailed), relax restrictions on buskers (maybe license them for key spots, but allow the simple saxaphone player to play anywhere), regulate maximum widths for facades (make large buildings have multiple facades for the botton two floors), relax signage regulations....

[mallguy]

allow the simple saxaphone player to play anywhere

[dubone]

What was pushed out in the zero-sum game you describe when all these things were built? What unplanned artist colony of mom and pop origami shops were showing up on Belk's land banking holdings in First Ward where the arena went?

Right now, uptown leaders are in an all-of-the-above mindset. They are looking to satisfy everyone, because they are pursuing all these types of things. They are pursuing more parks, more sports, more arts, more retail, more transportation, more housing.

What have they not done that they should have done? Street retail is being worked on heavily, urban parks are being worked on heavily. But they are still not clicking. What are they supposed to do when the only thing that is working is sports and museums? But I thought your theory was they shouldn't go uptown either? There would have been even fewer pedestrians if those weren't there.

[monsoon]

^The first post in this topic has a link to what should be done, and as I mentioned above, in the very small area where this has occured, this is were you will find a few people in Charlotte. Note this is smaller than Birkdale Village which stays packed with people all day long. I'm not saying BV is a substitue for downtown but the parallels are there when talking about building a place that people want to go to vs one they don't.

In regards to what the city had done, if instead of building the arena, they had taken the money and invested in a world class farmers market (and for $300M you can build a hell of a facility) that offered up things you can't get in the standard stores I predict the place would be packed on Saturdays. The city could have used the money to offer up incentives for venders to locate there until the businesses take off. This no doubt would have generated other symbotic businesses. Instead we have a huge concrete that does none of this.

[MZT]

Charlotte does remind me if another city in this respect. Calgary. Another city that was built up recently, with new wealth and ambition. This manifested itself in large towers and an Olympic bid, yet there were just a few scattered walkable parts of town with the quirky restaurants, etc.

Developing natural senses of place, versus building a city to impress others, are hard impulses to marry.

[Neo]

When I lived in Chicago I was right on State Street just two blocks over from Michigan Avenue, one of the premier shopping districts in America. Michigan Avenue was always packed at every intersection on sidewalk between but just two streets over the the intersection of Superior and State there were days when it seemed deserted. This is the second largest urban core in America and just two streets over from the main drag in a largely residential district with ground retail, grocery, food, etc. it was almost dead at times and overall wasn't all that populated in the streets. I moved back in 2002 to Charlotte and during my last trip to Chicago this past summer (2006) that area has seen more growth and more residential highrises are popping up with more ground retail, etc. but it still has a long way to go even for Chicago.

I will admit however that during every single trip to Wrigley Field (other than two times where a game was about to commence) it was all but dead around the stadium. I've walked down streets around there and haven't met a soul until I got back onto the L. During game days the area is packed and really makes it exciting to be in the area, but otherwise it is a dead zone.

I think it takes a lot more than just retail and bookstores to make a jump in the street life activity. There is a great Borders on Michigan but it just so happens to be in an area with multiple malls, each with multiple floor levels, just a couple of blocks from various parks, the lakefront, bike/running/walking paths, office, residential, and big tourist destinations such as the observatory in the Hancock Center and the Water Tower.

For Charlotte we need something like the Water Tower to make a staple for our downtown. The NHOF is a stab at that I believe. Nascar grew up in this area and we need to grab hold of that fact and really milk it. So what if it is a dead zone a lot of the time? The Water Tower in Chicago would be a lot less frequented without tourists IMO and the same can be said for the NHOF in Charlotte. It takes a lot of things to make a downtown vibrant and I for one believe a baseball stadium will help fuel that vibrancy. Yes, we need more parks, retail, etc. but we also need these sports venues and things like the NHOF to bring bursts of people in at times. In time the parking lots will disappear and the city of Charlotte will have the opportunity to allow for great development to compliment things such as the Panther's stadium and the new baseball stadium.

Give it time. I'm sick of hearing about how downtown is dead at times. Of course it is, every downtown (with maybe the exception of NYC) has dead times. We don't have the population living downtown yet to support these types of developments. It is the problem with the chicken and the egg but both will come with time. Downtown will continue to be dead of we don't go just because it is dead. We need to step up and make a difference and really show the rest that Charlotte can have a vibrant core, not go home and complain that it has no vibrancy.

[bork]

Give it time. I'm sick of hearing about how downtown is dead at times. Of course it is, every downtown (with maybe the exception of NYC) has dead times. We don't have the population living downtown yet to support these types of developments. It is the problem with the chicken and the egg but both will come with time. Downtown will continue to be dead of we don't go just because it is dead. We need to step up and make a difference and really show the rest that Charlotte can have a vibrant core, not go home and complain that it has no vibrancy.

[voyager12]

I think its ridiculously short-sighted thinking on the part of CCP and the rest of the Uptown cabal that only sports and mega museums "work". Other attractions do "work". Today, this city's downtown is not one where an average person can walk and explore all day, there is nothing to see because the focus is all on banking and sports on the weekends. I am coming to realization that the Mom and Dad Minvan demo from Union County does not care about other options and they are the dominant force in this town, so the powers that be go with the flow. The largest city in the Carolinas should have a diverse downtown and not settle for tiny pockets of urbanity in places like North Davidson and Southend. Downtowns should reflect the entire community. But mega-sports and partying is what the majority of Charlotteans want in their downtown and that is what we have. I was ridiculously spoiled living in Charleston and I like this town, but longterm I will be moving back to an older city with an established core and urban diversity. I am not saying that Uptown residents are wrong to be happy with how things are now, I just happen to like a different vibe that will never be fully created in this town.

[cinco]

^great post, neo. it sums up about how i feel on this topic. sure, i wish uptown had more to offer MY tastes in ways of retail and entertainment... but, the fact is uptown is still in the infancy of it's rebirth. 12 years ago uptown really was a ghost town.... so much has changed... and i have only see a progression in terms of pedestrian activity.

i am not naive, i doubt uptown will produce the types of places i like to go to - anytime soon.... but, this doesn't really bother me. i have neighborhoods that satisy me and are so close to uptown, that i don't feel seperate.

i don't believe these neighborhoods are going to die the quick, corporate death, as some here do... and even if they are, i will just do what i can to fight what i'm against, support what i'm for. for now, overall, i enjoy it. i enjoy the debates we have on planning. i enjoy the new development. i enjoy preservation. i enjoy the arts. i enjoy the indie-rock kids riding around on their fixed gear bicycles or the suits bustling around uptown @ lunch. i enjoy being in the minority rallying for the majority..... i'm not trying to be a booster, but, with charlotte's progression (over my lifetime) - even a skeptic could be no less than "half full". ultimately, this city is ripe for the picking.

[dubone]

That is the thing, V12. We are not happy with how it is now. But we know how far it has come, and our observations include many times when it is packed. I am home today, and sitting on my porch. In the last 2 hours there have been 100-200 pedestrians walking by and this is no where near the office towers. That is a lot in my mind, but it could be better.

I know you guys don't live uptown, but I just feel like if you did, you'd see the difference that there is when there is an event at the arena or the stadium. It brings lots of people here for the evening or for the day. They explore, buy stuff, eat at restaurants, walk around, talk about it. It would be so nice if it were constant. But we aren't at that level yet. But I think a lot of people are trying very hard to get it there.

The city is having design charettes to try to figure out how to spur a pedestrian friendly corridor with street retail along Brevard Street. They are using the arena, the convention center, and the Nascar Hall as anchors, but they recognize that those are dead outside of events. They are trying to spur developments with retail fronting the street. They have expressed the desire to attract non-chain places, and allow for some organic growth. They are spending $20 million dollars to make the street more pedestrian friendly, and supportive of developments that orient toward the street and pedestrians.

I'd love uptown to have open air mall-style retail like Birkdale so that it could attract the type of suburbanites that just like to do that on the weekend. Levine has tried to build up that very concept on his land with something he called Market Street. It never got off the ground. That is why they seem to now be focused on simply putting infrastructure in place for general retail to come rather than build a quasi-mall.

I also love the idea of a world class farmer's market. But it would never have made sense to put it on the Belk land, because there is no opportunity for symbiosis with the office towers like there is with an arena. Instead it would be great to do that on the Hal Marshall land which the county still owns and is sitting practically empty.

My thesis is that we have made tremendous progress, the proposed and under construction projects will make a huge leap forward, but that we still have far to go before we have truely continuous vibrancy downtown. But we have missed the boat on having history, grit, and century-long organic growth define this place. Any attempt at doing that would be fake. It is all gone.

In the mean time, I've just had a few dozen people walk past my porch while typing this, so forgive me if I find the criticism to be a little bit excessive. And the neighborhood cat has gone by 4 times, but I didn't count him.

[Neo]

Using Chicago for an example again. The city uses dozens of main attractions to bring vibrancy outside of office hours to downtown. They have decades on Charlotte and there isn't anything we can do about that, and even given their decades head start they still have dead zones, even in prime locations. I know it seems hard to believe, but I have been to Navy Pier when I could count the number of people I passed on one hand but during tourism months you can't stir that place with a stick.

What are tourists going to visit in downtown Charlotte? Honestly, if I was a tourist coming here there isn't a thing I would want to see short of the scenery and nearby attractions like the white water park, nearby mountains, etc. We need to create that tourist destination so that we can bring people here to fill the vibrancy void. I have a hard time to believe that the folks that live in Chicago visit downtown more than tourists do. In fact, my old boss who had lived in Chicago all of his life (southside, western, and northside) always asks me when I come to visit why I come. I personally feel a connection to that city but from his point of view there isn't a thing to do in the entire city. I'd say that's mostly right as you look at the destinations in downtown Chicago and they are really geared towards tourists. If you live there and do those things your entire life they're no longer fun anymore. You can only go see the Shedd Aquarium so many times before you get tired of seeing the same fish.

The way I see it, the only real way to bring in a constant fill of people downtown is to either make them stroll through downtown out of necessity (being a resident of downtown and having to go get groceries, shop, etc.) or bring in tourists from surrounding areas and from other parts of the country/world. NHOF, baseball, basketball, etc. all help to do that. People aren't going to flock downtown to go shopping or to grab a bite to eat if they can do that in their own town or their own little piece of suburbia. They want something unique, something they can't get elsewhere and they have to have it.

I personally think if there are old gold mines, etc. downtown then Charlotte should really expose that and milk it as part of tourism. It's all about creating an experience you can't get elsewhere and I'm afraid that Moe's Tavern or Barbera's Boutique isn't going to offer that for the masses. Baseball, NHOF, etc. will IMO.

[voyager12]

All the points dubone have made are good and I am not personally attacking Uptown or the people who reside there. I know I am viewing a snapshot in time as only a two year Charlottean. And maybe I am just an impatient person. I am not a homeowner and work wherever my laptop takes me when I am not walking dogs to make $$$ I am not going to wait five years to see what may happen when I can plan ahead and eventually move to a city that has what I want now. Er...I think I got my jobs backwards...well whichever one pays the rent each month, I focus on more, my parents have given up trying to figure it out too.... :-)

[Miesian Corners]

I don't understand what the big deal is. There are more people on the street uptown now than there have been in nearly 25 years and the numbers are increasing every day. It ain't going to happen overnight, folks. If you really want organic, it's going to take a while.

There is simply no reason to compare Charlotte to any city that it has nothing in common with. If we're going to compare ourselves to other places, we should be discussing places that are similar in size. Cities like Portland, Austin, Indianapolis, Columbus, Tampa, Jacksonville, Orlando, and Sacramento. Even then, population can't be the only classification used. Glaring differences show up as to why there might be more or fewer people in an urban center. Sacramento, Columbus, Indianapolis and Austin have large numbers of state workers, museums, and parkland due to their status as capital cities. Charlotte does not. All of them except Orlando have a natural features such as a river or harbor that act as draws. Charlotte does not. Orlando has a huge number of tourists and part-time residents. Charlotte does not. Columbus and Austin have huge universities within walking distance of their centers. Charlotte does not. In short, we simply cannot compare ourselves to anyone else. We have to be the best city we can with what we have.

Things are getting better all the time. There are now nearly 3,000 college students uptown. We have two grocery stores, a full-service drug store, and new restaurants opening all the time. Four great new museums/cultural centers will be opening in three years. Nearly 2,000 new housing units are either under construction or planned.

We are never going to be Charleston (sorry, but take the 10 million tourists that visit it yearly and NOTHING would be on King Street), we're not going to be Columbia (we don't have 25,000 college students uptown, nor do we have tens of thousands of government employeees), we're not even going to be Greenville, SC (no Reedy River flowing past the Bank of America Corporate Center). We are what we are.

I suggest that if anyone wants to complain about the state of uptown, then get involved. Kind of like not voting, yet complaining when a politician does something you don't like. If one doesn't involve ones self in the process, one has no right to beotch. Posting a message on an internet bulletin board doesn't count, sorry. Where was everyone last night at the Brevard Streetscape Charette? It was a prime chance to speak your mind and make a difference in what we want to see uptown. In a city of 650,000, only 35 people showed up. I was one of them.

I'm not trying to flame anyone in particular on this site, but I'm tired of hearing people complain about how bad things are. They're not. Could they be better? Sure they could. We all want that. But if you're not willing to get involved and make a difference, you can't be dissapointed when things don't turn out the way you want them.

[voyager12]

As I have said in previous posts, I am involved and have gone to various meetings and so have others who want changes and we are drowned out by CCP and and the rest of the Uptown establishment that purports to speak for everyone but follow their own agenda. This is simply my opinion and I am not dumping on the entire city. I already admitted that I have free will and plan on moving, in the meantime I am enjoying Charlotte and like any other place, there are things I like and things I don't.

[SmellyCat]

As I have said in previous posts, I am involved and have gone to various meetings and so have others who want changes and we are drowned out by CCP and and the rest of the Uptown establishment that purports to speak for everyone but follow their own agenda.

[krazeeboi]

Downtown LA is NOT a lovely place at night, that's for sure. I know Charlotte could be better, but I enjoy Uptown for what it is. In regards to creating a pedestrian-friendly vibe around the arena, perhaps Charlotte could take some cues from Columbus, OH--they have a successful arena district that ensures pedestrian activity even when no events are going on at the arena.

[monsoon]

I'm not trying to flame anyone in particular on this site, but I'm tired of hearing people complain about how bad things are. They're not. Could they be better? Sure they could. We all want that. But if you're not willing to get involved and make a difference, you can't be dissapointed when things don't turn out the way you want them.

[Neo]

I certainly did not intend to compare Charlotte to Chicago as that would be totally absurd. What I do want to do is point out that given what Charlotte has I think we're doing a fine job at making things better in great strides. Charlotte and Chicago are on two different ends of the poles but even it has dead zones and reasons why tourists flock to it. Charlotte has its own history (what's left of it anyway) and we need to really push that. History made a lot of why Chicago and other cities like it are so vibrant so instead of gunning for retail or whatever downtown let us give everyone what we're good at.

So what if we're a sports town? If that is what the people of Charlotte want then that is what Charlotte is. You can't make us anything else but what we are. For years the old convention center downtown was vacant and offered nothing to the city and now a developer is building something in its place with hopes of revitalizing that block and all we can do is complain about how it isn't perfect or how a couple of retailers backed out. Regardless of it being a time square or not, IMO it is much better than having an ugly unused building hurting that block of uptown.

Courtside is often kicked in the back for being out in the "middle of nowhere" but I just don't get that statement. For decades we wanted this influx of residential to happen uptown and when it booms all we can do is sit back and say it isn't enough and that it isn't making enough of an impact. Rome wasn't built overnight and Charlotte will certainly be no different. I'm personally enthusiastic everytime I go downtown because of all the new construction around me and compared to just a few years ago, I actually pass folks on the street. Maybe it isn't much traffic compared to 5th avenue but I'm excited because this is MY city growing up and I'm glad to be a part of it.

[Miesian Corners]

The reason that I mention this is that we have found that in operating this site that you have to bring up difficult issues that city boosters often won't agree with and many times, take personally. It is our hope that people will take what they find here as an honest dialog to address issues facing Charlotte, and not mindless whining and complaining. We could easily do that without running UrbanPlanet and instead go run a website that might make us some money or something.

It is not our wish to hold prisoners so if you don't like the posts here, you are free to go elsewhere.

[monsoon]

... I don't understand how that can be viewed as a negative or as boosterism, much less whining and complaining?

[Neo]

I was referring to this "....but I'm tired of hearing people complain...."

I guess many of us are because as Charlotte residents we hate to see the city not given a chance. Time will tell what can be done with downtown but I for one think we're on the right track. We must continue to show our support for the city and let our voices be heard however. Many developers, politicians, and media outlets read UrbanPlanet.org so even posting to this site does make a difference in having our voices heard about issues we feel obligated to elevate.

[lupitachica]

My take on why Uptown isn't thriving:

I don't think density alone is the issue, other problems:

1) lack of visual interest: There's nothing to see

2) lack of things to do: No clothing stores, shoe shops, or other types of street level retail to draw people. You don't have to live in an area place to want to go there but why would you go if there aren't a variety of things to do at all times?

3)Walkability - Uptown is not easy to walkabout. The sidewalks are narrow and cut off in weird places. Its just not comfortable (imo) in many areas.

4) Lifestyle - this is not a sexy place. If you're looking to have mix, mingle, have sex you wanna be out & about where there's action. If you've got someone & are settled you pretty much stay inside. A huge generalization yes, but you get my point. The word I got before I moved here was dont come if you don't have anybody. I had someone Charlotte in general is just not a place that's has that "its hoppin'" vibe though Uptown is trying on the weekends. The 20s somethings looking to club til 3AM then grab breakfast on a Tuesday night aren't really coming to Uptown for that I don't think.

5) Diversity - a thriving area needs difference (economically, racially, etc).

The thing is I'm not sure if Uptown or Charlotte in general wants to have any of these things. We need people like this to assist in revamping Charlotte:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...mp;pagewanted=1