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Street Level Retail in Downtown Charlotte


monsoon

Are they developing Great Retail in Downtown Charlotte?  

98 members have voted

  1. 1. Are they developing Great Retail in Downtown Charlotte? (Please read the Link first)

    • No - It still misses the mark, too much focus on the building, not people
      80
    • Yes - It great and getting better
      15
    • I don't believe that document
      3


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Okay, metro, I think you have a point about it being better 30 years ago. I actually think Charlotte's downtown has been in a downward spiral for a hundred years. The zero-lot line buildings, the street retail, the well designed homes, the streetcars, etc., used to be amazing.

I believe that drugs and racism took that away from our society. By 30 years ago, the fundamentals that lead to the loss of people were already in place. The old skyline pictures show an acute difference between the 1950s and the 1970s. People left in droves to the suburbs to live, and then started shopping in the suburbs, too. The old time development started to deteriorate, there were fewer people around to care, so they were torn down bit by bit. Much of it was allowed because Charlotte gave the land owners the freedom to build a parking lot on their land, tearing down the old growth. 2nd Ward was pretty much gone, and almost nothing has gone in since. The fundamentals were already gone by the late 70s, but the department stores hung on with losses, so they still brought a decent number of people.

But in the 80s, drug violence and the perception of drug violence kept even more people from downtown. Also, seismic demographic shifts occurred, as the baby boom population was now squarely in their family-raising time. The department stores and the other stores hit their limit and closed up shop, and people had even less reason to be up there outside of work hours.

Meanwhile, developers and architects had almost a hate-hate relationship with the street. Most buildings that went up had almost a fortress mentality, where the street should have as few things as possible. All traditional architectural lessons went out the window. Now, a shear white brick wall abutting the street was a statement of art, and kept the scary people on the street away.

I think the terrible architecture continued for a long time, the fundamentals got continually worse as it became a cultural certainty that you shouldn't be downtown at night, and there was no redevelopment to reclaim the dead parking lots, and the horrible architecture.

Are things bad right now? Well, I think we are in the half-full/half-empty stage. We all know that we don't have a full glass. But some us are optimists and see graduation change in the positive, so we are saying the glass is half-full. Others, who remember things from a generation ago, or contrast this city with others with far more going for it, consider it half-empty. I guess both are right. It is what it is, regardless of how it is framed.

So, are things good enough to keep voyager from returning to Charleston? No. Voyager, you were apparently 28 years too late for Charlotte's peak, so it might be better to move to get what you seek.

The half-full and the half-empty people want the same thing here, but I think the pessimists are annoyed at the others' optimistism and optimists are annoyed at the others' pessimism.

Here are my opinions for increasing the pedestrian activity and street retail (regardless of which is chicken and which is egg):

- Triple the populations of the four wards to around 30k

- Redevelop as many surface parking lots, regardless of specific UMUD-allowed use.

- Require a 3/4 of the street level designs to be interactive with the pedestrian/sidewalk, with as much space for ground-level retail as possible, regardless of the use above (office, museum, residential, baseball).

- Exponentially build the visitorship numbers, though whatever means are commercially viable, including baseball, nascar hall, conventions, concerts, circuses, plays, etc. We have a start, but there is little overlap.

- Make the goal of 100k office workers a reality.

- Spend $100-200m on reconfiguring downtown streets to be lower speed, two way streets.

- Spend $100m to build pedestrian infrastructure on key signature streets, so that the street amenities of N Tryon are carried out on a few different streets.

- Build out a transit network that delivers people to downtown for the events, office work, etc.

Pedestrian activity and street retail are chickens and eggs. We must do as much as we can to build up the fundamental numbers of people downtown before we can expect that pedestrian counts will be like the pre-exurban days. We must also make sure that the developments that do not have retail all around on the ground level are avoided. Even if there are no stores to go in them right now, there will be during the lifetime of most of the buildings built today.

Cityview lofts (N Davidson and 10th) took 3 years or so of an empty storefront before they got a lease. Courtside is still waiting. But as long we continue to require the space to be there, it will eventually fill up.

In the meantime, the pessimism feels like complaining, as many of these pursuits are under way and the optimists are feeling optimistic.

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You also have to look at this as a big ol' leapfrog game. No one or business is looking to suddenly thrust a huge population into center city, nor a huge block of retail. There is a bit of sensible tentativeness (is that a word) that I think is actually necessary. If suddently lots and lots of retail and commercial were added without the necessary folks living nearby, it might fail and might scare off future investment. Lots of empty spaces wouldn't be a very positive move for downtown nor would lots of vacant condos.

If too many people moved into the loop they might be very unhappy with not enough to do and the need to drive out of center city to shop, eat, hang-out. The market oriented society we have has a lot of built-in checks-and-balances. They really tend to work without much tampering.

Building takes time, so by that nature new residents are slowly coming to the area and new businesses are as well. Keeping that in balance is, IMO, the best way to build a solid center city that doesn't get out of whack with too much of one thing coming before the next. It requires patience that I am the first to admit is difficult!

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True. I think one thing that Charlotte-Mecklenburg leaders could do would be to get one large destination retailer uptown. That could be the catalyst for attracting more.

In Greenville, SC, city government bought a building in a bad area near downtown and redeveloped it as the "West End Market", a shopping center full of gift boutiques and restaurants. I thought it was going to be a waste of money but that was the catalyst that caused the whole area around it to spring to life; millions of dollars in residential, retail and office development have sprung up around it. City leaders then lured the Mast General Store, an old-fashioned/country-style department store-type thing, to North Main Street. That has also helped spur retail development.

Both of these were pushed to happen by city government, and, as a pretty conservative voter, I thought both were going to be socialistic wastes of money. Both have done very well and have really helped downtown come back to life, following the successes of some earlier anchors such as the Peace Center, which helped trigger restaurants to come downtown.

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I just had a thought- wouldn't it have been interesting if Crate & Barrel had chosen an Uptown site instead of SouthPark? I think that's the type of big name retail Uptown needs to get a jumpstart on retail. And for some reason, i feel like the style of furniture and decor that they sell is more suited to uptown condos or SouthEnd condos or homes, as opposed to the more traditional style homes around SouthPark.

What else could be equivalent to C&B that would fit well in the more Urban/contemporary style of Uptown?

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Well said Dubone

You also have to look at this as a big ol' leapfrog game. No one or business is looking to suddenly thrust a huge population into center city, nor a huge block of retail. There is a bit of sensible tentativeness (is that a word) that I think is actually necessary. If suddently lots and lots of retail and commercial were added without the necessary folks living nearby, it might fail and might scare off future investment. Lots of empty spaces wouldn't be a very positive move for downtown nor would lots of vacant condos.

If too many people moved into the loop they might be very unhappy with not enough to do and the need to drive out of center city to shop, eat, hang-out. The market oriented society we have has a lot of built-in checks-and-balances. They really tend to work without much tampering.

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For those of us who come here from older established cities with fantastic downtowns it is very frustrating to watch Uptown plod along. Dubone is right that it all depends on perspective. And if I had moved here from another new city like Orlando or Atlanta and not Charleston I would have a different take. But I did not and this is my simple opinion. I am not so deluded to think that Tryon St will become a version of King or Haywood streets. That's not "Charlotte". There is great potential and endless plans on the drawing boards or about to break ground. But I don't see the ingredients in these mostly condo dominated projects to bring more people Uptown to stroll along or shop and eat. Everything is focused on marquee attractions such as Nascar or sporting events. I am hoping that the eventual revitalization of Elizabeth Avenue and projects built around LRT such as Scaleybark Village will fill the the niche that I think belongs in Uptown but is ignored by the laser focus on entertainment venues. As far as personally writing Charlotte off goes, I turn 30 in Sept and always told myself I would do a life evaluation then about everything including location. If I don't like the way things are developing in Charlotte by then I will move, although it has been nice the last few years not having to worry about hurricane evacuations :D

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I believe that is exactly what is happening.....BofA and Lincoln Harris are proposing opening up a lot of the street level to retail tenants, and shuffling the other uses around...I'm not sure there is much that can be done with the College and 5th corner though, sense that is the Blum. back of house.

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I believe that is exactly what is happening.....BofA and Lincoln Harris are proposing opening up a lot of the street level to retail tenants, and shuffling the other uses around...I'm not sure there is much that can be done with the College and 5th corner though, sense that is the Blum. back of house.
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So, I had a little time on my hands and took a look at Belk NC locations on their website. Belk has 20 NC locations in towns with populations of less than 10,000. 5 of those stores are in towns with less than 5,000 people. Not only that but I'm sure their growth rates and average income don't come close to Uptown. I'm under the impression that Belk owns a lot of uptown land, or at least they used to which I'm sure sold for a premium. My point is, if Belk can make a profit in places that tiny why wouldn't an Uptown full service Belk be a good investment. With the population even at its current size, the massive growth of Uptown residents, the large daily workforce, and the tourism currently coming in and anticipated future tourism, I think the only reason Belk isn't Uptown is personal and not financial. That's just me. I say go ahead and drive the nail through Eastland's coffin, move out and move up...town.

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The town of Brevard has a Belk. I went camping in the Pisgah forest and was closer to a Belk, a Charlotte-based store, than I was in downtown Charlotte. I'm sure land costs are a major reason, but, um, how much land does the Belk family own downtown, and how much money have they made in selling land downtown in the last few years (the arena)?

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So, I had a little time on my hands and took a look at Belk NC locations on their website. Belk has 20 NC locations in towns with populations of less than 10,000. 5 of those stores are in towns with less than 5,000 people. Not only that but I'm sure their growth rates and average income don't come close to Uptown. I'm under the impression that Belk owns a lot of uptown land, or at least they used to which I'm sure sold for a premium. My point is, if Belk can make a profit in places that tiny why wouldn't an Uptown full service Belk be a good investment. With the population even at its current size, the massive growth of Uptown residents, the large daily workforce, and the tourism currently coming in and anticipated future tourism, I think the only reason Belk isn't Uptown is personal and not financial. That's just me. I say go ahead and drive the nail through Eastland's coffin, move out and move up...town.
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So, I had a little time on my hands and took a look at Belk NC locations on their website. Belk has 20 NC locations in towns with populations of less than 10,000. 5 of those stores are in towns with less than 5,000 people. Not only that but I'm sure their growth rates and average income don't come close to Uptown. I'm under the impression that Belk owns a lot of uptown land, or at least they used to which I'm sure sold for a premium. My point is, if Belk can make a profit in places that tiny why wouldn't an Uptown full service Belk be a good investment. With the population even at its current size, the massive growth of Uptown residents, the large daily workforce, and the tourism currently coming in and anticipated future tourism, I think the only reason Belk isn't Uptown is personal and not financial. That's just me. I say go ahead and drive the nail through Eastland's coffin, move out and move up...town.
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As long as Belk continues to invest in Southpark as its flagship store, there is no reason for it to build a destination store in downtown Charlotte. Southpark is one of the biggest reasons that downtown isn't a destination for shopping. I know people here at the lake that have no problem at all getting in the car and making that long difficult journey to Southpark mall, but wouldn't even think about going downtown, basically because they say, there isn't anything down there that can't be had anywhere else.

As long as the city council continues to approve developments like the NM wing at SouthPark, Northlake, the stuff at the former Midtown Square, etc, then don't expect anything to head to downtown Charlotte.

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I was refering to full service Belk's which I wrote on my post. I don't think a Belk express is an acurate market test as it is so different from a full service store anyway.

Metro, an Uptown Belk wouldn't neccasarily have to be a "destination" Belk. Simply a full service Belk would do wonders, even a small one.

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Belk SouthPark is not the hinderence to Belk opening an Uptown store. It's a flagship store, but it feeds off of surrounding retail just like the old downtown store did back in the day. It makes a lot of sense for them and it makes Belk a lot of money.

The problem with Belk opening Uptown is that they'd pretty much be by themselves. There's plenty of retail to feed off of still in Uptown, but not the chain stores that they typically like to surround themselves with. It's going to take some serious lobbying to get them Uptown again, and more than likely, a major retail development with complimentary chain stores.

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I really wish that we could do something on the scale of Birkdale Villiage on Levine's land, or even 2nd ward. If you can pull that off in Uptown, then presto, you will have a Belk's and tons more to boot. Until there is the idea to put a BV in Uptown, than it is off to the burbs for most shoppers.

A2

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Charlotte really needs new retail space.......most space is currently occupied. I think they are on the verge of getting a load of new spaces, but there isn't a lot of contiguous space available for multiple complimentary retailers. It's close though....certainly before the end of the decade, we will see a huge difference.

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