CONSTRUCTION THREAD: 98 East McBee

[RestedTraveler]

Oh brother...here we go again with the stalling out of good projects.

[gs3]

Underground parking has been eliminated, and the number of hotel rooms has been cut in half. Amenities are also being reduced. There should be a story in the News this week or next. No official "restart" date is scheduled.

That's what I know. It's from a reliable source.

Thanks for the info. I had a gut feeling from a few things I had heard. Any idea as to "why"?

[Mr. Downtown]

Thanks for the info. I had a gut feeling from a few things I had heard. Any idea as to "why"?

Money. It's really freaking expensive to build anything right now.

[Greenville]

I would rather wait a year for the original design to start rising (and have a nice and unique high-rise), than start in a few weeks with a run-of-the-mill midrise that offers nothing in the way of new architecture. I assume the spires will be gone if the structure gets any shorter (as they should be).

Have construction costs increased that much since the project "broke ground" recently? I wonder if this is more about demand for 5-star hotel rooms and less about construction costs. Perhaps their initial projections for the demand of high-end hotel rooms are being questioned. Or maybe some of the condo agreements with potential buyers fizzled.

If this structure is dramatically reduced in height, then I would guess that they will be starting over on the condo pre-sales. As we've discussed before, people are willing to pay a premium for nice views and amenities, but if the structure will be shorter and amenities reduced, how can anyone be expected to continue with the agreement?

[gs3]

I would rather wait a year for the original design to start rising (and have a nice and unique high-rise), than start in a few weeks with a run-of-the-mill midrise that offers nothing in the way of new architecture. I assume the spires will be gone if the structure gets any shorter (as they should be).

Have construction costs increased that much since the project "broke ground" recently? I wonder if this is more about demand for 5-star hotel rooms and less about construction costs. Perhaps their initial projections for the demand of high-end hotel rooms are being questioned. Or maybe some of the condo agreements with potential buyers fizzled.

If this structure is dramatically reduced in height, then I would guess that they will be starting over on the condo pre-sales. As we've discussed before, people are willing to pay a premium for nice views and amenities, but if the structure will be shorter and amenities reduced, how can anyone be expected to continue with the agreement?

Agree with you.

Thought this was suppose to be a "destination" property for high end weekend travelers, with it's spa and amenities. If amenities are reduced, it's no longer billed as a destination, and it becomes a middle of the road property, then I'd think occupancy would become even more of an issue, as the property will be competing with multiple mid-range properties.

This all seems like things that would have been thought about beforehand, as well as the expense to build. I mean, the groundbreaking was just about 6 months ago in December......come on guys....realizing these things 6 months into the project......seems a little amateurish. I sometimes question the smarts of some of the local SC developers.

[GvilleSC]

They might as well just bring in a chain hotel. Make it a Ramada, Holiday Inn, whatever. What's the difference now? I'm looking forward to that News article to find out what the developer has to say.

[gvillenative]

May as well not even build now it'll just be a waste of space.

[TREY]

What a disappointment. They should save the site until they can swing the original project. IMO construction cost increases have slowed down but I do not expect them ever to go down( any significant amount).

[gs3]

I was told today, that the hold up on the Peacock has not been the remediation of soil

or water on the site, as they have not found any contamination in the water that has

been removed. The hold up is, the Peacock is under going a large design change and

they are waiting on approved structural drawings. " The building will now be seven

floors with no underground parking". "It will have only one sheer wall instead of three,

witch will make it easier and cheaper to build".

The only good news," Work should start in two weeks.

Given what seems to be coming down the pike, I'd say the above of seven floors will probably be accurate.

[Greenville]

Given what seems to be coming down the pike, I'd say the above of seven floors will probably be accurate.

I am really disappointed that this highrise won't be happening, but hopefully there are some announcements for other highrises on the horizon.

At least the 7-story or so midrise will contribute to the density downtown. I am sure this development will be impressive in architecture and in its effect on the street level. In fact, we would probably be extremely excited about it if we hadn't heard about the highrise part first. It's all relative, I guess. Nonetheless, it will be nice to see something rising there (and an open lot filled in with a quality, dense development).

[gs3]

I am really disappointed that this highrise won't be happening, but hopefully there are some announcements for other highrises on the horizon.

At least the 7-story or so midrise will contribute to the density downtown. I am sure this development will be impressive in architecture and in its effect on the street level. In fact, we would probably be extremely excited about it if we hadn't heard about the highrise part first. It's all relative, I guess. Nonetheless, it will be nice to see something rising there (and an open lot filled in with a quality, dense development).

^ Wish I could be as positive as you are in your comment. It's not so much the loss of floors, because as you state, it will still add density. A positive thing.

I'm really irked by the reduction of "amenities". I thought this was Greenville's chance to finally get a smaller version of a Schrager hotel....a chance to step it up to the next level in several areas including design, service, experience. Greenville already has great hotels having the only Hyatt in SC and the only urban Westin, but those are chains. I was so excited about a destination hotel. I just simply don't see how this will meet the level of expectation they originally portrayed and we were lead to believe. It's obvious they are really thinking dollars.....bean counting..... That means one thing, cuts of amenities they deem frivolous. Those amenities are what put the "high" in high-end and those amenities are what create a great experience for the customer. While it can happen, I've rarely seen bean counting and highend co-exist. I think the developers promised something they do not plan to deliver or cannot afford to deliver.

[Greenville]

^ Wish I could be as positive as you are in your comment. It's not so much the loss of floors, because as you state, it will still add density. A positive thing.

I'm really irked by the reduction of "amenities". I thought this was Greenville's chance to finally get a smaller version of a Schrager hotel....a chance to step it up to the next level in several areas including design, service, experience. Greenville already has great hotels having the only Hyatt in SC and the only urban Westin, but those are chains. I was so excited about a destination hotel. I just simply don't see how this will meet the level of expectation they originally portrayed and we were lead to believe. It's obvious they are really thinking dollars.....bean counting..... That means one thing, cuts of amenities they deem frivolous. Those amenities are what put the "high" in high-end and those amenities are what create a great experience for the customer. While it can happen, I've rarely seen bean counting and highend co-exist. I think the developers promised something they do not plan to deliver or cannot afford to deliver.

I am only being positive because that seems to be the only thing we can control. Like you, I am very disappointed and feel that we were all misled. As with other projects, why announce them to the public and even have a groundbreaking if you are not serious about the project? I realize that a lot of money and planning have to go into these things, but barring a huge catastrophe there is no real excuse for plans to get this far along and then fizzle. And the sad part is that they seemed so on top of things when we first heard about this...

[deltad22]

I am only being positive because that seems to be the only thing we can control. Like you, I am very disappointed and feel that we were all misled. As with other projects, why announce them to the public and even have a groundbreaking if you are not serious about the project? I realize that a lot of money and planning have to go into these things, but barring a huge catastrophe there is no real excuse for plans to get this far along and then fizzle. And the sad part is that they seemed so on top of things when we first heard about this...

First off let me apoligize for the following rant. I am sick and tired of all these so called big projects falling apart at the last minute. Its time for someone to step up to the plate and build what they say there going to build. I know that construction costs, design, planning, funding all take thier toll on these projects. But with all the money that has been spent, it would seem that these problems wouldnt just come out of nowhere. Im just wondering if these developers are just a bunch of wanna bees trying to do something that is out of there league. Ive said this before and I will say it again, If Atlanta and Charlotte are builing multiple large projects at one time, you would think Greenville could pull off just one. Please someone build a signature building in Greenville before I have a stroke.

[gs3]

First off let me apoligize for the following rant. I am sick and tired of all these so called big projects falling apart at the last minute. Its time for someone to step up to the plate and build what they say there going to build. I know that construction costs, design, planning, funding all take thier toll on these projects. But with all the money that has been spent, it would seem that these problems wouldnt just come out of nowhere. Im just wondering if these developers are just a bunch of wanna bees trying to do something that is out of there league. Ive said this before and I will say it again, If Atlanta and Charlotte are builing multiple large projects at one time, you would think Greenville could pull off just one. Please someone build a signature building in Greenville before I have a stroke.

Exactly.

Greenville the city can and has gotten many developments off the ground, but it's always when it's done by out of state developers. Let the local South Carolina yokel developers get their hands involved and it falls apart. It's happened in every city in the state. These SC developer yokels aren't even smart enough to save history and re-adapt (example The Pavillion being torn down in Myrtle Beach) No thinking outside the box and no smarts.....a few pennies short of a dollar.

The only local developers I've been impressed with are the Hughes. They know how to get a quality project off the ground.

Thank God out of state developers have taken a liking to Greenville.

[distortedlogic]

Yep, I'm as disappointed as the rest of you in this one! (And seeing as how this backs up MITPs source, seems like it is accurate). It might indeed be better to let this one die altogether, rather than to "do it halfway" as what we are hearing suggests. As I have opined before, it seems to destroy the whole purpose of the plan to begin with. Why have a 60 room hotel, with expensive condos offering few amenities and no view? Probably would be better to let this site stew for a few years until the original could be built, or a new project comes along. And I'm not sure I understand the money issue here; as we often talk about, many other cities (even our peer ones) are able to get these things up without these kinds of problems. It can't be that dificult. (I think this one is more dissapointing because it seemed like it was a done deal)!

[Mr. Downtown]

The only local developers I've been impressed with are the Hughes. They know how to get a quality project off the ground.

Not to pick on the Hughes, but the Riverplace development was practically subsidized by the city. Remember the $2 million staircase? I think that the whole thing is certainly an improvement compared to what was there before, but none of it would have happened if it hadn't been for the city's involvement and the eminent domain decision, and subsequent lawsuit, which ended up costing city taxpayers like myself many millions of dollars. (gsupstate, sorry to pick on that one point from you. I just thought it was interesting.)

I think that we all need to remember that groundbreakings like have been held for Peacock and Pinnacle are not really for the project, they are for the developer's ego. If it were me, I would make damn sure that everything is in place and that construction starts the second that my shovel pierces the ground. I really consider such shows highly unprofessional if not backed by immediate action. If you want to have a party to recruit prospective investors or purchasers, then do it. Don't lie to everyone and tell them that it's a done deal and then sit on it for six months. I know that there is a big risk involved in any large project, but you should do all the thinking before ever letting anyone know the first thing about it.

[RestedTraveler]

I think that we all need to remember that groundbreakings like have been held for Peacock and Pinnacle are not really for the project, they are for the developer's ego. If it were me, I would make damn sure that everything is in place and that construction starts the second that my shovel pierces the ground. I really consider such shows highly unprofessional if not backed by immediate action. If you want to have a party to recruit prospective investors or purchasers, then do it. Don't lie to everyone and tell them that it's a done deal and then sit on it for six months. I know that there is a big risk involved in any large project, but you should do all the thinking before ever letting anyone know the first thing about it.

Very well said!

[gs3]

I think that we all need to remember that groundbreakings like have been held for Peacock and Pinnacle are not really for the project, they are for the developer's ego. If it were me, I would make damn sure that everything is in place and that construction starts the second that my shovel pierces the ground. I really consider such shows highly unprofessional if not backed by immediate action. If you want to have a party to recruit prospective investors or purchasers, then do it. Don't lie to everyone and tell them that it's a done deal and then sit on it for six months. I know that there is a big risk involved in any large project, but you should do all the thinking before ever letting anyone know the first thing about it.

I agree 100% with this comment about developers.

[gs3]

Not to pick on the Hughes, but the Riverplace development was practically subsidized by the city. Remember the $2 million staircase? I think that the whole thing is certainly an improvement compared to what was there before, but none of it would have happened if it hadn't been for the city's involvement and the eminent domain decision, and subsequent lawsuit, which ended up costing city taxpayers like myself many millions of dollars. (gsupstate, sorry to pick on that one point from you. I just thought it was interesting.)

Without getting into the politics of the Riverplace development, I'm glad the city was involved. That's why it went through and why we have the dynamic development called Riverplace today. The city of Greenville has a positive history with public/private partnerships and the positive development of it's urban core. (Riverplace, The Hyatt, Peace Center, West End Field, McBee, etc, etc).

Maybe the developers of The Peacock should seek out a partnership with the city and then maybe this development would go through as planned!

[swu_BA_student]

I have a picture of the site as of last night, but I can not figure out how to post it.

[Oly]

Speaking of downtown Greenville, is Main Street retail ever going to make a comeback???? Has anyone counted the vacancies?

[Greenville]

I have a picture of the site as of last night, but I can not figure out how to post it.

In the meantime, can you describe the rendering to us?

[swu_BA_student]

I have not seen any new rendering since the anounced cutbacks.

I have to say the old one was beautiful. Its to bad about the downsizing of the master plan.

[Mr. Downtown]

Without getting into the politics of the Riverplace development, I'm glad the city was involved. That's why it went through and why we have the dynamic development called Riverplace today. The city of Greenville has a positive history with public/private partnerships and the positive development of it's urban core. (Riverplace, The Hyatt, Peace Center, West End Field, McBee, etc, etc).

I forgot to make the point originally that I do think that Riverplace is a MAJOR improvement over what was on the land originally - a couple of fairly unattractive, bland, slightly rundown buildings and old parking lots. Riverplace is a very dynamic development, and an excellent way to "start" your journey into the West End.

[RestedTraveler]

I forgot to make the point originally that I do think that Riverplace is a MAJOR improvement over what was on the land originally - a couple of fairly unattractive, bland, slightly rundown buildings and old parking lots. Riverplace is a very dynamic development, and an excellent way to "start" your journey into the West End.

Moreover, it seems to me that that entire area along the Reedy (the Peace Center, RiverPlace, Falls Park) has truly become the absolute center of Greenville now.