Professional Sport Team/Arena

[wrldcoupe4]

Mariners aren't MLS...

[rusthebuss]

Soccer

[hoobo]

Mariners aren't MLS...

I know. They're USL 1st Div. And the Kickers as well as Charlotte's team are 2nd Div. In a quick aside, is the USL operating like Euro leagues where the bottom teams in the 1st Div are demoted while the top teams of the 2nd Div are promoted? Would be nice to have the Kickers move up to 1st Div. Anyway, my point was that VB built the Sportsplex so that it could be expanded to 25,000 if VB was awarded an MLS team. And this isn't only building another grandstand on the other side of the field where the berm is but also adding decks to and expanding lengthwise the existing grandstand.

Sorry rus, I know how much you dislike soccer but given the lack of attention by the Big 4 (if NHL is still included) and the stability (just inked an ESPN deal) and expansion of MLS, it may be the only real shot at a major league. There's also the MLL. I'm starting to like lacrosse more than hockey. That would be funny. No Big 4 team but a MLS and a MLL in HR, or rather, at the Sportsplex. What would the area be coming to?

[wrldcoupe4]

Kickers were in USL Div. 1, where the were extremely successful, until this season when they dropped to the Div. 2 because they could not cope with the high costs of transporation to games in far away places like Puerto Rico and Vancouver. As of now, they are at the top of the USL-2.

Unfortunately, they don't have the relegation/promotion system that is in Europe, yet. Ideally it would be the best scenario, but I think soccer must grow a little more in this country first. I'd love to see the day when teams like Richmond and VA Beach could be promoted to the MLS, with the possibility of teams like the current MLS teams being relegated to USL-1.

And Russ I'm sorry you dislike the most popular sport in the world.

[rusthebuss]

I don't follow the world and its far from popular in the US! Baseball is more exciting but this is just my opinion.

[scm]

Anyway, you keep claiming you have all this evidence backing your statements, but all I've seen is one statement from the libertarian Cato Institute and spun numbers on schools. I'm just using my observations from what I've read and heard. If you have evidence to prove me wrong, display it. You don't have to get angry over this and the tongue-in-cheek jokes and start name calling. Relax.

Too busy formulating your rebuttal to read the UMBC profs study I referred to on 7/27? Besides, even you don't claim any economic development benefit to major league sports. And you have even come to realize that an NBA Finals team doesn't mean that the arena won't run an operating deficit into perpetuity.

OK, let's get off this since it appears there is violent agreement on the lack of economic benefits, and get on to how it could work. There are many examples of NBA arenas funded by the owners. Sacramento, Salt Lake, Detroit, NY, Atlanta, Chicago, and Washington all play in arenas owned by the owners of the teams. Boston and Philadelphia play in arenas owned by third parties. NO and NJ arenas are owned by the states. Milwaukee's was a gift of the Bradley family. The rest, owned by local governments, are either county ownership, or by cities much bigger than Norfolk (Dallas - 1.2M, Memphis - 680K, OKC - 532K, Seattle - 573K, Charlotte - 651K, and Indy - 791K). Only Orlando, in the midst of their own replacement arena drama, comes close to Norfolk. There simply isn't the tax capacity in a city of 230K to fund this.

So, what are the options? Most unlikely is the philanthropy option of Milwaukee. How about attracting an owner that will build their own arena, like seven of his peers? How about recruiting a third party to build and operate the arena, like Boston and Philly?

Next is a state option, like NO and NJ. Probably won't happen, but why not ask? Third is a county option -- oh, yea, forgot -- no county option. But why not a regional sports authority with taxing ability? I know all of the pitfalls -- why would NN join an authority that would build an arena in Portsmouth? But without the taxing scope of the entire region, there isn't a city here that can carry the freight by themselves. Norfolk's meal and hotel tax are already the highest in the state, and the tax base a city of 230K can impose those taxes on, can't expect to pay for it. Dallas and SA paid for part of theirs with rental car taxes -- might ask the state for the authority to tax for a special regional arena authority, on top of the existing state tax.

[vdogg]

Baseball is more exciting but this is just my opinion.

You're right, that is just your opinion. I find baseball extremely dull most of the time unless i'm actually playing it. Soccer is far more action packed and has a tempo that I think our geriatric baseball players (and overpaid if I may add that in) would have a hard time keeping up with. I do have a question though, does your attitude towards soccer have more to do with the fact that it is a european or world sport or do you really find it that boring? I've always wondered why soccer has such a hard time in this country. It's so funny to me that a sport that has been overwhelmingly adopted by middle class kids across America has yet to make an imprint on a national level.

[rusthebuss]

You're right, that is just your opinion. I find baseball extremely dull most of the time unless i'm actually playing it. Soccer is far more action packed and has a tempo that I think our geriatric baseball players (and overpaid if I may add that in) would have a hard time keeping up with. I do have a question though, does your attitude towards soccer have more to do with the fact that it is a european or world sport or do you really find it that boring? I've always wondered why soccer has such a hard time in this country. It's so funny to me that a sport that has been overwhelmingly adopted by middle class kids across America has yet to make an imprint on a national level.

It has nothing to do with it being a world or european sport. I listen to euro music all the time. I just don't find it fun or interesting. I'm a big football, basketball, baseball, and mixed martial arts fan! Thats why i stated its my opinion not to offend anyone. I guess you can point that to America wanting to be different from the rest of the world. I think its great cause it gives us our own culture and makes us feel different.

[wrldcoupe4]

I don't think there was ever the thought that "let's not make soccer as popular because we should be different than the world".... we borrowed much of our culture from other societies, so that argument is moot.

[rusthebuss]

I don't think there was ever the thought that "let's not make soccer as popular because we should be different than the world".... we borrowed much of our culture from other societies, so that argument is moot.

So we borrowed football, basketball and baseball?

[hoobo]

So we borrowed football, basketball and baseball?

Only basketball and lacrosse are true American sports. Baseball is a derivative of cricket and football is an offshoot of rugby. And come to think of it, basketball comes from soccer.

[wrldcoupe4]

So we borrowed football, basketball and baseball?

Early American football was much more like rugby or soccer than the Football played in the NFL today.

Still, I don't see why you would be opposed to Major League Soccer in HR

[rusthebuss]

Early American football was much more like rugby or soccer than the Football played in the NFL today.

Still, I don't see why you would be opposed to Major League Soccer in HR

I don't know too many sports fans around here that even care about soccer. When the world cup was going on no one in my office or friends cared about it. I'm not dissing it like its not a good sport just don't care about and not too many people I know do either. How many people in offices talk about soccer? On monday you hear alot of people talking about football during the season and after the season. I hear people talking about basketball and baseball as well, still no soccer. I don't mean for you to take it personally. I probably shouldn't have put the puke smiley up there. I've tried soccer and never really felt it.

[wrldcoupe4]

Hahaha Russ trust me I definitely don't take your dislike of soccer personally. For me, I know tons of people that pay attention to soccer. During the World Cup (the most popular sporting event in the world), I had people that never paid attention to soccer coming up to me and talking about how much they enjoyed watching the games. But it would be silly to make assumptions about an entire region just from our own personal perspectives and experiences.

I just find it interesting how someone, that feels that pro sports are so vital for HR, looks the other way or maybe even is against Major league soccer there.

Long term, that road is a gold mine.

[rusthebuss]

Hahaha Russ trust me I definitely don't take your dislike of soccer personally. For me, I know tons of people that pay attention to soccer. During the World Cup (the most popular sporting event in the world), I had people that never paid attention to soccer coming up to me and talking about how much they enjoyed watching the games. But it would be silly to make assumptions about an entire region just from our own personal perspectives and experiences.

I just find it interesting how someone, that feels that pro sports are so vital for HR, looks the other way or maybe even is against Major league soccer there.

Long term, that road is a gold mine.

Well to me soccer is not a major sport or the big 4 or really the big 3. That is why I feel the way i do

[wrldcoupe4]

Beggers can't be choosers, but fair enough.

[rusthebuss]

Beggers can't be choosers, but fair enough.

demanding is not begging!

[Telmnstr]

Virginia Beach put in Soccer in it's sports complex. AFAIK, the stands stand empty during games.

This is Tidewater, not Europe. NASCAR would be a better fit (and I mean that in a positive way).

Chesapeake had a chance for a NASCAR track, and they blew it. Idiots.

[okinawatyphoon]

While I like soccer and enjoy watching it, I do not consider major league soccer to be on the same level as major league baseball, for instance, and i don't think the average American does either. I am not opposed to major league soccer for hampton roads, but I think we can do better.

[wrldcoupe4]

Doesn't soccer become more popular every year in the US? IMO, a region would be wise to have a MLS team in anticipation of the growth which will occur. I guess they could always go for sports that are growing exponentially in popularity like baseball and hockey?

[rusthebuss]

I'm looking for the NBA to come here. That would make me extremely happy. Baseball would be fine, especially since so many baseball players are coming from here. Football would be too hard to get here.

[spiker3]

As firmly as i support the idea of HR getting a major league franchise, there simply isn't the business as pect in the area now to support it. Yes there are large companies here with a presence here that would support a team, but not financially to the point of being successful. Smithfield and Norfolk Southern. That's it. All owners and the MLB, NBA, NHL and NFL care about are Fortune 500. That's what we're measured on, that's what everyone's measured on, and we have two. Norfolk Baseball Co put together a smoke and mirrors campaign with so-called investors, and revealed a total of ONE. Coincidentally, they're located on Granby Street. Makes you think (Granby Tower) And Al Abiouness, while situated monetarily is FAR FAR FAR from a substantial contributor. My father worked for Al for 15 years. Al's money is in real estate, to whoever said he was selling his company for a huge sum is out of his mind. His company has Al's name and that's it. So figured a couple million. In the world of professional sports, that's nothing. To put sponsorship in perspective, MacArthur Center has been looking for a year and a half for someone to sponsor their skating rink, a guaranteed 50,000 people, at least. They want 75K for naming rights. No bidders. No one's even close. They can find people to put advertisments up on the boards, but no big contributions. Hopefully the development in the area, downtown revitilization, Newport NEws and Hampton Town Centers, Chesapeake Towne Center, etc will get businesses in the area for that foundation of support. But until then, years down the line, those of us hoping for a major league team for the last twenty years will still be waiting.

[hoobo]

I said it. I'm just repeating what I heard through the Lebanese grapevine. But once again, it's not a matter of what F-500 is based here but what is the already business community like. Ferguson, Stihl, and Siemens may be foreign companies but they have huge presences in HR. Newport News Shipbuilding (as well as Northrup Grumman), BofA, Wachovia, BB&T, SunTrust, USAA, Canon, Mitsubishi, Cox, and Verizon all have a large presence in the area. Then there are the smaller players like Trader/Landmark, Dollar Tree, AH, Lillian Vernon, Amerigroup, Sandler & Sons, Gateway Bank, and General Foam Plastics. That is just a glimpse of the corporate base.

As for naming rights, a skating rink does not compare to an arena. Neither Staples or Home Depot are based in L.A. yet both have their names plastered on venues there. Key Bank which is based in Cleveland used to sponsor the Seattle Arena. The Q in CLeveland is named for a Detroit company (granted they share the same owner). Cox Arena in San Diego is named for Cox Cable, an Atlanta company while Philips has naming rights to the arena in Atlanta. So neither Smithfield nor NS needs to have the naming rights to a Norfolk arena. What I will say is that they would more likely be the ones, though, if no pro team, i.e. national exposure, is gotten just out of civic duty (for a much lower sponsorship fee of course).

[rusthebuss]

The ice skating rink was dinky and it really was shooty craftsmanship. If they built a more permanent one maybe someone would sponsor it. They could build something that could be used as a fountain during the warmer climates that would turn into a rink during the colder weather. Throwing up a trailer up looks so crappy and very unclassy.

[hoobo]

And scm as much as I love to irritate you because you loathe me so, I am reading those papers published by Dennis Coates (still at UMBC) and Brad Humphreys (now at Illinois). I wish they put more statistics and an in-depth explanation of their methodology rather than a summary of results, speculation as the reasons behind the results, and brief overview of the methods. I also found that my local library has Andrew Zimbalist's book as well as a pro-stadia book by Rick Horrow (can you imagine). There are a couple others at the library but unfortunately not the one by Kevin Delaney. Finally, despite the Cato Institute referencing these researchers/professors, I refuse to listen to what they say because they are politically motivated and will spin the researchers' results for their own interests.