IDLE CHATTER: A new Revolution stadium in RI?

[mental757]

It was a nice suggestion, but this isn't the path to the MLS. Next idea...

- Garris

...and that's all it was - just thinking on the keyboard on a way to this accually happen.

Do I at least get an 'A' for effort???

[Garris]

ivy league football in new haven... is big.

Really?? Not when I was at Yale, although the team is much better now than it was then in the mid-90's. I was in the marching band, and sometimes it felt as if we were just playing for the team and ourselves the place was so empty... The Yale Bowl is huge though, with a capacity of like 70,000. Even if a good 10,000 show, the bowl looks empty...

lol, dont knock ivy league football garris!

ive been to games, they do not get the support they should, i guess its a question of options at hand for students in their leisure time and the loss of stature of ivy league football from dominance 60-75 years ago

My best memory of Ivy League football will always be the following. We in the marching band travelled to Dartmouth for a game, and at one point, the Yale kicker missed the ball completely during a kickoff, a complete whiff... Another Yale player ran up behind the ball and tried to kick it (or did it by accident)... It flubbed along the ground, was picked up by a Dartmouth player who ran it in for a touchdown. The place went nuts, the refs had no idea what to do, and the touchdown stood...

The games are always a blast the watch, and the quality is occasionally very high, but then you can have moments like the above...

...and that's all it was - just thinking on the keyboard on a way to this accually happen.

Do I at least get an 'A' for effort???

Absolutely! Very creative!

- Garris

[Mij]

Really?? Not when I was at Yale, although the team is much better now than it was then in the mid-90's. I was in the marching band, and sometimes it felt as if we were just playing for the team and ourselves the place was so empty... The Yale Bowl is huge though, with a capacity of like 70,000. Even if a good 10,000 show, the bowl looks empty...

My best memory of Ivy League football will always be the following. We in the marching band travelled to Dartmouth for a game, and at one point, the Yale kicker missed the ball completely during a kickoff, a complete whiff... Another Yale player ran up behind the ball and tried to kick it (or did it by accident)... It flubbed along the ground, was picked up by a Dartmouth player who ran it in for a touchdown. The place went nuts, the refs had no idea what to do, and the touchdown stood...

The games are always a blast the watch, and the quality is occasionally very high, but then you can have moments like the above...

Absolutely! Very creative!

- Garris

I think most of you are missing the point of relocating from a "football" stadium to a "futball" arena. The leauge no longer wants to share space. If this relocation does take place, Boston, Providence or where ever you will not see "Football" being played on it.

[brick]

In terms of being greedy, I would love to have the Revs move here and for Providence to have a nice soccer pitch. But the city shouldn't have to build it, and in fact shouldn't have to subsidize it. If the MLS can't exist without heavy subsidies then it doesn't deserve to exist. The fact is that sports stadiums, in fact, do not spur further economic development. This was a huge issue in baseball about ten years ago when MLB was trying to hold municipalities hostage for their franchises and it remains an issue both with MLB and NFL. these are huge multi billion dollar businesses still looking for municipal handouts. I would say it is functionally equivalent to Citizen's Bank saying "we want a 500 foot tower on Dyer St. build it for us or we move." Except that Citizen's building might actually have a tangible financial benefit.

So, basically, what you are left with is that getting a sports team is a source of pride and not a source of economic development, IMO. I'm fine with that and would still like a team, and I might not even mind a bond issue. However, any stadium development with a bond issue should address at least a few of the following things:

1) Brownfields reclamation - do not use prime real estate for this. Use a site that noone else really wants and could use the rehab.

2) Infrastructure improvement. Similar to the brownfields argument. Don't just build a stadium and surround it with parking and leave everything else the same. There would have to be some infrastructure improvement - roads, greenspace, etc.

3) Local merchants. Don't give the concession deal to Aramark or one of the gigantacorps. Let's locals do it, even if it is sodexho, which at least is a gigantacorps located in RI. This has to be part of the bond.

4) Taxation. On multiple fronts. To re-pay the bond issue, the taxes should be higher once the business is viable, and the city should get a portion of any profit Kraft makes from selling the team since a large part of the valuation will be from having a nice new stadium that generates money.

[DaveRPI]

In terms of being greedy, I would love to have the Revs move here and for Providence to have a nice soccer pitch. But the city shouldn't have to build it, and in fact shouldn't have to subsidize it. If the MLS can't exist without heavy subsidies then it doesn't deserve to exist. The fact is that sports stadiums, in fact, do not spur further economic development. This was a huge issue in baseball about ten years ago when MLB was trying to hold municipalities hostage for their franchises and it remains an issue both with MLB and NFL. these are huge multi billion dollar businesses still looking for municipal handouts. I would say it is functionally equivalent to Citizen's Bank saying "we want a 500 foot tower on Dyer St. build it for us or we move." Except that Citizen's building might actually have a tangible financial benefit.

So, basically, what you are left with is that getting a sports team is a source of pride and not a source of economic development, IMO. I'm fine with that and would still like a team, and I might not even mind a bond issue. However, any stadium development with a bond issue should address at least a few of the following things:

1) Brownfields reclamation - do not use prime real estate for this. Use a site that noone else really wants and could use the rehab.

2) Infrastructure improvement. Similar to the brownfields argument. Don't just build a stadium and surround it with parking and leave everything else the same. There would have to be some infrastructure improvement - roads, greenspace, etc.

3) Local merchants. Don't give the concession deal to Aramark or one of the gigantacorps. Let's locals do it, even if it is sodexho, which at least is a gigantacorps located in RI. This has to be part of the bond.

4) Taxation. On multiple fronts. To re-pay the bond issue, the taxes should be higher once the business is viable, and the city should get a portion of any profit Kraft makes from selling the team since a large part of the valuation will be from having a nice new stadium that generates money.

the original story tells us that these stadiums are being built as part of huge sports complexes where youth sports and large gatherings can occur, even concerts, etc

i dunno if its cool to have lil kids playing on a brownfield, but whatever

issuing bonds isnt a problem, why would it be?

the article says some teams built them on their own, not just the towns

the artcile also says for the team to be economically viable they need a big say in the concessions and parking

i dont think you read the article

it was more about cultivating a new sport in america [which is funny to me since i dont even like soccer, but i like the idea in a business/social sense] and a creating a focal point for a community- not a way to solve all the economic problems of a region. be part of the solution, not the problem

it was just a fun idea, and possibly some fun stuff to do in Providence or RI rather than go stare at art or fire in the water

btw- best part is, summer concert venues dont usually compete with winter concert venues... dunk vs. new outdoor stadium

and also, my first post outlines how the new stadium could be an economic catalyst if all of the possible uses of it are explored as stated

either way itd be cool to have something nationally recognized in the sporting world

[brick]

and also, my first post outlines how the new stadium could be an economic catalyst if all of the possible uses of it are explored as stated

Look, I'm not trying to start an argument here. But, this is an issue that was at one time pretty close to my heart, especially when the Red Sox were looking to have the state of Massachusetts build them a new stadium. I actually had conversations with people like Andrew Zimbalist, who wrote a book or two on the subject.

The numbers have to be pretty heavily manipulated to show municipalities receiving any net gain from building a stadium. Usually the numbers that are manipulated have to do with colateral investment - developers putting money into the city/surrroundings to generate a larger tax base and more jobs, etc. These are kind of phantom numbers in the first place, and in this specific case Providence already has development and doesn't need a sports franchise to actually draw interest.

Now, MLS is a little different than MLB. They don't have an anti-trust exemption and their franchises aren't worth nearly as much. It is a fledging league. Regardless, I would not expect Providence to derive any tangible economic benefit from building a stadium. And as many others have pointed out, the city has a lot of needs already. So I do think the economics have to be part of the equation. Others may disagree, as is their right.

I agree that it would be fun, and I would likely be a season ticket holder.

As for your sarcastic brownfields comment, you do understand the point of rehabbing a brownfield is to get it to be usable again, right?

[runawayjim]

I think most of you are missing the point of relocating from a "football" stadium to a "futball" arena. The leauge no longer wants to share space. If this relocation does take place, Boston, Providence or where ever you will not see "Football" being played on it.

i don't know how they can exist and not share space unless someone else foots the bill for them. i'm seeing this as more of a way for kraft to get something for nothing. foxboro stadium is too big for MLS beacuse they will never come close to capacity making the crowds seem small. a small stadium will make it seem like they are really supported.

there will be other events in it because no municipality will consider building a stadium solely for MLS use and nothing else. that'd be like throwing away your money.

[Dan]

We in the marching band travelled to Dartmouth for a game, and at one point, the Yale kicker missed the ball completely during a kickoff, a complete whiff... Another Yale player ran up behind the ball and tried to kick it (or did it by accident)... It flubbed along the ground, was picked up by a Dartmouth player who ran it in for a touchdown. The place went nuts, the refs had no idea what to do, and the touchdown stood...

That was offside on the kicking team, the touchdown should've been overturned.

I always prefer to play on nice green grass, but we settled for brownfields all through high school.

[DaveRPI]

Look, I'm not trying to start an argument here. But, this is an issue that was at one time pretty close to my heart, especially when the Red Sox were looking to have the state of Massachusetts build them a new stadium. I actually had conversations with people like Andrew Zimbalist, who wrote a book or two on the subject.

The numbers have to be pretty heavily manipulated to show municipalities receiving any net gain from building a stadium. Usually the numbers that are manipulated have to do with colateral investment - developers putting money into the city/surrroundings to generate a larger tax base and more jobs, etc. These are kind of phantom numbers in the first place, and in this specific case Providence already has development and doesn't need a sports franchise to actually draw interest.

Now, MLS is a little different than MLB. They don't have an anti-trust exemption and their franchises aren't worth nearly as much. It is a fledging league. Regardless, I would not expect Providence to derive any tangible economic benefit from building a stadium. And as many others have pointed out, the city has a lot of needs already. So I do think the economics have to be part of the equation. Others may disagree, as is their right.

I agree that it would be fun, and I would likely be a season ticket holder.

As for your sarcastic brownfields comment, you do understand the point of rehabbing a brownfield is to get it to be usable again, right?

i just disagree with you, sorry

a stadium that hosts all kinds of events, not just the one team, would be a great ASSET for the city, just like the Dunk is

ive read books, done case studies, and generally keep an eye out for things pertaining to this subject all the time

ask the tweeter center in mansfield, one of the most successful concert venues of its kind and a great asset for suburban boston

ask fenway park in boston, who has a neighborhood full of businesses centered around it

ask the meadowlands in NJ, in fact this is a great example, there is a whole business community that sprung up around this one

as for the brownfields, i actually designed affordable empty lot fill-in housing for a neighborhood in Albany, NY that were later built with the help of brownfield clean-up grants etc. i understand them completely. itd be nice to be able to reuse them. i just dont see a brownfields spot in the city that is big enough to accomodate like 4 soccer fields, parking, and a stadium.

[brick]

I agree with you. It would be great. It would also be great if Providence had a state of the art secondary school or if it had mass transit. My point isn't to argue whether it would be good or bad. My point is to argue whether there is a cost for these things and any rational decision has to be made with return on investment in mind. And studies have shown that there isn't a great ROI for cities like Providence to build a stadium.

For the record, Fenway Park was privately financed by Boston Globe owner John Henry Talyor. It was not bought by the municipality. If Kraft wanted to build a soccer stadium in Providence with his own funds, there would be no opposition. But that's not what he wants to do. He wants the city to build him a place. That's a huge difference.

The Tweeter Center has been privately owned/operated for as long as I can trace back. I guess there is a chance the state built it and sold it but I don't see a public record of that. I will assume it was built with private funds.

These are basic facts which change the thrust of the argument significantly, and I for one would greatly appreciate it if you would understand the facts and the argument being made before blithely shooting it down.

[runawayjim]

I agree with you. It would be great. It would also be great if Providence had a state of the art secondary school or if it had mass transit. My point isn't to argue whether it would be good or bad. My point is to argue whether there is a cost for these things and any rational decision has to be made with return on investment in mind. And studies have shown that there isn't a great ROI for cities like Providence to build a stadium.

For the record, Fenway Park was privately financed by Boston Globe owner John Henry Talyor. It was not bought by the municipality. If Kraft wanted to build a soccer stadium in Providence with his own funds, there would be no opposition. But that's not what he wants to do. He wants the city to build him a place. That's a huge difference.

The Tweeter Center has been privately owned/operated for as long as I can trace back. I guess there is a chance the state built it and sold it but I don't see a public record of that. I will assume it was built with private funds.

These are basic facts which change the thrust of the argument significantly, and I for one would greatly appreciate it if you would understand the facts and the argument being made before blithely shooting it down.

i believe tweeter owns the tweeter center now... or at least does all the funding for it and has rights to it.

kraft seems to be cheap and considering the sleazy way he got foxboro to give him some money for gilette to keep the patriots, i don't think he shoudl be trusted.

[Dan]

i believe tweeter owns the tweeter center now... or at least does all the funding for it and has rights to it.

kraft seems to be cheap and considering the sleazy way he got foxboro to give him some money for gilette to keep the patriots, i don't think he shoudl be trusted.

I thought Tweeter just bought the naming rights.

Having a business community spring up around a stadium in the Prov. Port District would be great for Kraft and the city. That's exactly what he's doing in Foxboro right next to Gillette with his new shopping development.

Kraft is a businessman. Providence is hot and easily accessible. It's a relatively small stadium project, 20-25k seats?

He's got the cash - maybe he'll just build it.

[Mij]

I thought Tweeter just bought the naming rights.

Having a business community spring up around a stadium in the Prov. Port District would be great for Kraft and the city. That's exactly what he's doing in Foxboro right next to Gillette with his new shopping development.

Kraft is a businessman. Providence is hot and easily accessible. It's a relatively small stadium project, 20-25k seats?

He's got the cash - maybe he'll just build it.

Maybe everyone didn't read the article, The krafts are looking from the best deal from a host community. As far as we know to this point, Providence has not even put a bid out for the team. When they ask for bids they are looking to see who will give the most pubic funds towards building the new venue. Rather then deal directly with one community, MLS and the Krafts are gaining leverage by pitting these areas against each other.

The idea is to give the MLS teams their own offical home rather then share with the NFL teams. Sports fans may remeber the building boom of new MLB stadiums in the late 80's early 90's. After thinking that cities would benifit from sharing of space, (the only places I no that still do this are Oakland, Minnisota, and Miami). With the sharing of space the revenue from parking , vendors and other areas were never really a source of income. Not gaurenteed like they are at Gillett. So take Giants stadium for example, The J.E.T.S and the Giants share the facility. Not one of them own it. The Jets were put in a situation were thier exspenses were larer then that of the giants. The Giants had the Naming rights and the rent was less for them The solution for that has become for the Jets to build thier own stadium.

Getting back to MLS and the REVS, Providence would be just as good of a fit for a new stadium as Boston. Then againg so would Worchester, New Bedford, Springfield, Fall River, Hartford and Manchester. And it's not every day that a major leauge team is giving you an oppurtunity to make an offer to be thier host city. Why not let them bid for the team. It seems to me a savvy business stratagy.

[DaveRPI]

i believe tweeter owns the tweeter center now... or at least does all the funding for it and has rights to it.

kraft seems to be cheap and considering the sleazy way he got foxboro to give him some money for gilette to keep the patriots, i don't think he shoudl be trusted.

sorry, but you are off on this one runaway...

its widely known that the $315 million dollar Gillette stadium was privately financed by the Kraft family.

the state and town kicked in for infrastructure improvements to route 1, Foxboro has a deal in place thats a win-win for the town and the team

yes the original article that i started the thread about was how some MLS teams had built smaller venues to play in with other uses built in as well, youth sports facilities, concert venues, etc. the article goes on to say how some teams have begun privately financing their stadiums through loans or floating bonds. the soccer team was only one point of interest for me. the other uses and possibilities to spur development around it were of a greater interest to me. some people have said they dont believe that a new stadium can be a economic catalyst for an area. i have provided a couple examples of just the opposite.

kraft in almost every circle is seen as a keen and aware, very successful businessman who would only be an asset to and an advocate of providence

*Side note: not that it has a lot to do with this thread, but its also widely known that the Kraft family [Patriots/Revolution front office] continually chooses to have the Patriots, Revolution, and team officials fly out of TF Green and also has used Providence as a host city for AFC Championship week. In fact, a lot of NFL teams and personnel stay in Providence hotels when they come to play or meet with the Patriots. the same goes with the Revolution.

If for nothing else, making a push for a new professional sports team and first class outdoor stadium facility, be it a public or a private venture for the city of Providence, would be a great way to extole the city's renaissance in the broader public eye...

just playing around with an idea after looking at the satellite images, but what about this...

A stadium and a surrounding youth soccer/sports facility in Upper South Providence behind RI Hosp and Woman & Infants:

There are some HUGE surface lots back there along prarie avenue. sell the lots to the team. they will build the facilities on the surface lots and as part of the deal have the new owners build large, secure, easily accesible parking garage facilities on some of the smaller lots in the RI Hosp/W&I area.

some benefits/advantages would include:

these garages could include 1st level retail/commercial space and also opportunities for public transportation and additional attached office/hospital space.

building up in this neighborhood instead of out would allow for a greater density of businesses surrounding a couple major businesses of RI [the new facility and obviously RI Hosp etc] which would bolster the neighborhoods economy and allow for other development

its visibility from route 95 would be a great asset

soccer is a major sport in the surrounding neighborhoods

the plots would basically border the jewerly district area of downtown, soon-to-be destinations, and have plentiful downtown connections

it is also close enough to JWU, Brown, RISD, CCRI, URI Cont Ed, etc that certain partnerships could be forged with them

...among others

Im sure there would be some disadvatages and things that would work in favor of this idea [opposition from neighborhood groups, audience noise and stadium lights at night near hospital rooms, etc], but work is over and I have to go home now.. be nice and leave some more benefits and/or disadvantages if you like! haha

[runawayjim]

then how do you explain his talks with CT to get a stadium there when it's pretty widely known that he never had any intentions of actually moving? what was the point of that?

[DaveRPI]

then how do you explain his talks with CT to get a stadium there when it's pretty widely known that he never had any intentions of actually moving? what was the point of that?

he is mainly a business man not mainly a philanthropist. he is in business to make money for his companies, the patriots, and more importantly the NFL - not give it away or pass up on sweeter deals...

wouldnt you explore all your options and see what offers came your way while you planned? it was also obvious that there was a huge proposal for a new pats stadium to be part of south boston's waterfront development at the time. the costs of putting a stadium there would have been doubled/tripled if that scenario played out compared to that of foxboro. a stadium there would require exponentially larger commitments $$$ for infrastructure, parking, public transportation, highway access, and not to mention the stadium being built on landfill. It would have been a centerpiece of a new area of downtown boston that also has the world trade center, hotels, new convention center, and seaport. there was a lot more going on there than would have been in providence and hartford. leverage in those discussions would not be unethical, it would be counted upon by both sides in negotiations. ultimately, finneran stopped the development and kraft moved on, by creating what is largely considered an elite professional sports/entertainment facility.

sleazy???? no...its smart business... sorry man, i just dont see it your way. any smart business person would have acted in a similar manner if they were given the same set of circumstances.

[runawayjim]

he is mainly a business man not mainly a philanthropist. he is in business to make money for his companies, the patriots, and more importantly the NFL - not give it away or pass up on sweeter deals...

wouldnt you explore all your options and see what offers came your way while you planned? it was also obvious that there was a huge proposal for a new pats stadium to be part of south boston's waterfront development at the time. the costs of putting a stadium there would have been doubled/tripled if that scenario played out compared to that of foxboro. a stadium there would require exponentially larger commitments $$$ for infrastructure, parking, public transportation, highway access, and not to mention the stadium being built on landfill. It would have been a centerpiece of a new area of downtown boston that also has the world trade center, hotels, new convention center, and seaport. there was a lot more going on there than would have been in providence and hartford. leverage in those discussions would not be unethical, it would be counted upon by both sides in negotiations. ultimately, finneran stopped the development and kraft moved on, by creating what is largely considered an elite professional sports/entertainment facility.

sleazy???? no...its smart business... sorry man, i just dont see it your way. any smart business person would have acted in a similar manner if they were given the same set of circumstances.

i have heard he had absolutely no intention of moving the patriots when he "explored" the CT and boston options.

[CtownMikey]

it is still unknown if Providence sent in a bid for the stadium, correct?

[MikeR]

Providence and RI is doing the right thing by staying out of this. Bob Kraft is simply trying to play New England cities off each other to see the best package. After that, he'll wrest out of the Massachusetts legislature a low-interest revolving-door loan and build the stadium on his Foxboro property. He'll be able to keep all the parking revenues to pay the loan, and keep all the lucrative concession revenue.

[Cotuit]

it is still unknown if Providence sent in a bid for the stadium, correct?

It's unknown, but fabulously unlikely.

[DaveRPI]

Providence and RI is doing the right thing by staying out of this. Bob Kraft is simply trying to play New England cities off each other to see the best package. After that, he'll wrest out of the Massachusetts legislature a low-interest revolving-door loan and build the stadium on his Foxboro property. He'll be able to keep all the parking revenues to pay the loan, and keep all the lucrative concession revenue.

playing? the league is looking to expand. owners in the league dont necessarily own a team as much as they own stake in the league.

[DaveRPI]

Providence and RI is doing the right thing by staying out of this. Bob Kraft is simply trying to play New England cities off each other to see the best package. After that, he'll wrest out of the Massachusetts legislature a low-interest revolving-door loan and build the stadium on his Foxboro property. He'll be able to keep all the parking revenues to pay the loan, and keep all the lucrative concession revenue.

wow, some of you guys dont like Kraft. very emotional repsonses without many facts... must be colts' fans!

you mean the league and team will "keep" the lucrative concession revenue? im sure in a lesser known growing league they will reinvest profits into the teams and league infrastructure to make it better

man, this topic never went where i intended it to... i was hoping for some playful suggestions as to where a stadium of this kind would go and what it would look like and what it would consist of... some people seem to be very cynical of an athletic/entertainment center on any level like it is a huge black hole in society. relaxxxxxxxxxx no one is taking your money! haha so negative

now, back to the idea, rhode island would benefit from a stadium on the bay somewhere because its location would highlight the best natural attribute of the state, but for more land at less cost and to be closer to massachusetts fans, it could likely be located in northeastern RI, sort of like how Fidelity placed itself... anyone agree?

[runawayjim]

now, back to the idea, rhode island would benefit from a stadium on the bay somewhere because its location would highlight the best natural attribute of the state, but for more land at less cost and to be closer to massachusetts fans, it could likely be located in northeastern RI, sort of like how Fidelity placed itself... anyone agree?

providence would be better thn northeastern RI because it has better access to highways and public transit. fall river and new bedford would likely be the biggest supporters of the team outside of boston and providence because of their large immigrant and portugese populations. those 2 cities don't have easy access to northeastern RI.

[Dan]

Maybe everyone didn't read the article, The krafts are looking from the best deal from a host community. As far as we know to this point, Providence has not even put a bid out for the team. When they ask for bids they are looking to see who will give the most pubic funds towards building the new venue. Rather then deal directly with one community, MLS and the Krafts are gaining leverage by pitting these areas against each other.

Pubic Funds?! Flag on the play! Where's Jerry02908?!

My only point was that we shouldn't build the stadium with Providence or Rhode Island dollars. As far as expressing interest in hosting; if we can put together a package of transportation/infrastructure improvements, tax credits, brownfields incentives, etc. then that's great. But I think the Hartford deal way back when Kraft was the hero who stopped the one-way train to St. Louis was the State of Connecticut was going to foot the bill for the whole thing just to get back in the pro sports game - until the people voted it down.

And I don't think it makes a lot of sense to build a new 25,000 seat stadium on the same property as a 5-year old state-of-the-art 68,000 seat stadium. Thats just my opinion...

[MikeR]

wow, some of you guys dont like Kraft. very emotional repsonses without many facts... must be colts' fans!

I've had the misfortune of meeting him twice...I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him. And I'ma big Pats fan! Seriously, this stadium talk is just that - talk. He'll try to play Providence/Hartford off each other, like he did the last time. In the end, he'll simply stay in Foxboro since he already owns everything there...more profits for him.