A Case for Changing SC's Annexation Laws

[monsoon]

..... NC's is only like 50% of the people plus 1.

No its not like that at all. If an area meets certain requirements for density, NC Law allows a municipality to annex that area regardless of how many people want it. This is known as an involuntary annexation and the process used by most municipalities to grow their areas including all of the cities in Mecklenburg (Charlotte). It only requires a simple vote by the city's city council.

NC also has the concept of a EJT. It's complicated how this works, but basically it gives a municipality zoning control over areas that it has yet to annex. This tool lets the cities control growth before they are annexed into the city limits.

Politicians in NC do this at their own peril. While it's not much of a problem for Charlotte, Huntersville a number of years ago did an involuntary annexation of two large subdivisions into its city limits which more than doubled the size of the city. The residents there were upset about this and in the coming fall election had enough votes to vote out the entire city council and mayor and replaced them with reps from their own subdivisions. This actually turned out to be a good thing as in the following years Huntersville developed some of the most progressive zoning in the Carolinas.

Edit: ahh I see vicupstate answered this. sorry!

[distortedlogic]

I read that also. It seems as though the city is starting to wake up to reality and realize they must annex for the city to grow.It also said that The City of Columbia annex more than double that of last yr. So maybe all of s.c. cities will get on board and something can be done about the previous annexation law.

I wish Greenville would get on board. Cola's area now covers 130 square miles, Chas is close to 100, and Gville's is a whopping 26! I know these numbers have been posted many times, but look at them. 26 is PATHETIC! I know Gville leaders are trying to grow it in other ways, but that is just plain sad. Gville can do all the "high density infill" they want, and it will not make much difference. Like it or not, if Gville wants to remain in the game with SC other big three, it MUST annex, AGRESSIVELY.

[erm1981]

I think Greenville will end up not being able to annex like it wants due to state annexation laws and will faill to like 10th in the state as far as population. Richland might also pass Greenville county in numbers as far as county numbers go by the next 2010 census.

[Spartan]

I think Greenville will end up not being able to annex like it wants due to state annexation laws and will faill to like 10th in the state as far as population. Richland might also pass Greenville county in numbers as far as county numbers go by the next 2010 census.

Greenville ans Spartanburg in in similar situations. They are both suffering from small city limits and they cant expand because there are already PSD's in the urban areas around the cities. Greenville is doing a pretty good job of encouraging people to move back to the city. Spartanburg is just starting this effort. Population ranks dont mean much anyway. We all know that UA and metro stats are more accurate.

[distortedlogic]

I think Greenville will end up not being able to annex like it wants due to state annexation laws and will faill to like 10th in the state as far as population. Richland might also pass Greenville county in numbers as far as county numbers go by the next 2010 census.

I agree with the first part of your comment. I have also stated before that in the future, Gville could easily fall out of the top 10 (sadly)unless things change. As for Richalnd passing Gville in county population. I would say this is very unlikely in our lifetimes, and pretty much impossible by 2010. I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but Gville has about 70-80 thousand more people currently, and continues to add more people each year than does Richland. So while Richland may be growing at a slightly faster rate, Gville grows faster in raw numbers, and I do not see that changing any time soon.

[distortedlogic]

Found the link 2005 County Pop Estimates. Go down to the table, it shows pop figures for 2000, and 2005. The top 3:

Gville (2000) 379k (2005) 407k = + 28k

Richland (2000) 320k (2005) 340k =+ 20k

Chas (2000) 309k (2005) 330k =+ 21k

So, even though Richland and Chas counties may have a slightly higher growth rate, Gville continues to grow faster by sheer numbers. However, I would not be surprised to see Lexington cty surpass Spartanburg cty one day.

[Greenville]

I agree, it is too bad that Greenville is so far behind the other two big metros in square miles. I also concur that Greenville isn't likely to annex a lot and grow the city limits by much. The only hope for Greenville is to consolidate with the county. That would jump the city area a ton, and bump up the city population to 400,000+. That would be wonderful, but I do not see it happening anytime soon. Our only hope is that city and county government decision makers realize that it is perhaps our only way out of this predicament.

The thing saving Greenville is the fact that the MSA is impressive. In the last census GSP was just under 1 million, and currently it is over 1 million. Although the midpoint estimates have split up Greenville and Spartanburg MSA's, I believe growth and commuting patterns will cause it to be adjusted back to being one Greenville-Spartanburg MSA by 2010. As Greenville residents, that is what we will have to hang our hats on going forward.

[monsoon]

Found the link 2005 County Pop Estimates. Go down to the table, it shows pop figures for 2000, and 2005. The top 3:

Gville (2000) 379k (2005) 407k = + 28k

Richland (2000) 320k (2005) 340k =+ 20k

Chas (2000) 309k (2005) 330k =+ 21k

So, even though Richland and Chas counties may have a slightly higher growth rate, Gville continues to grow faster by sheer numbers. However, I would not be surprised to see Lexington cty surpass Spartanburg cty one day.

Actually you left out Horry County which added more than 30K. I think that number is a big underestimate given the amount of growth in Myrtle Beach.

[carolinadude9409]

I think Greenville will end up not being able to annex like it wants due to state annexation laws and will faill to like 10th in the state as far as population. Richland might also pass Greenville county in numbers as far as county numbers go by the next 2010 census.

I highly doubt Richland county will pass Greenville County in population anytime soon.

Edited September 5, 2006 by carolinadude9409

[vicupstate]

I wish Greenville would get on board. Cola's area now covers 130 square miles, Chas is close to 100, and Gville's is a whopping 26! I know these numbers have been posted many times, but look at them. 26 is PATHETIC! I know Gville leaders are trying to grow it in other ways, but that is just plain sad. Gville can do all the "high density infill" they want, and it will not make much difference. Like it or not, if Gville wants to remain in the game with SC other big three, it MUST annex, AGRESSIVELY.

I agree that Greenville's predicament is detrimential. The best option for Greenville is to try to pass the Local Option Sales Tax, to reduce the incremental cost of living in the city. Short of that, I don't see much hope for the situation changing. One thing that will help some, is that Verdae will eventually add 10,000 or so residents. That might help Greenville stay in the top 10 awhile longer.

Columbia's figures are inflated by Fort Jackson, which is 88 square miles. That area has a relatively static population and produces no tax revenue. Charleston is actually over 106 sq miles now.

[CorgiMatt]

I highly doubt Richland county will pass Greenville County in population anytime soon.

No, but if you count the number of people who live in the suburban areas of Lexington and Kershaw counties only because of their proximity to Columbia and take Spartanburg and Anderson out of the equation because they are their own cities and not just towns with big county populations resulting from Greenville's existence, they would be equal, thus the larger contiguously urban/suburban Columbia metropolitan area as opposed to metropolitan statistical area. After all, Richland County ends and Lexington County begins at the western edge of downtown Columbia.

[GvilleSC]

No, but if you count the number of people who live in the suburban areas of Lexington and Kershaw counties only because of their proximity to Columbia and take Spartanburg and Anderson out of the equation because they are their own cities and not just towns with big county populations resulting from Greenville's existence, they would be equal, thus the larger contiguously urban/suburban Columbia metropolitan area as opposed to metropolitan statistical area. After all, Richland County ends and Lexington County begins at the western edge of downtown Columbia.

You definitely underestimate Greenville's pull. You can't take out Spartanburg and Anderson Counties from the mix. Greenville's largest suburb is Greer- the city straddles the county line and extends into Spartanburg County. Greenville's busiest road is Woodruff Rd (maybe the state's?)- extends with constant development into Spartanburg County. Powdersville commuters (Anderson County) can get downtown faster than I and I live in the city limits of Greenville... you can't remove those counties and call the comparison even.

I'd like to see the city continue to grow by infill and for the city to encourage density. Greenville's best bet at the time would be to merge with Mauldin, but who knows if it would ever happen...

[krazeeboi]

However, would Greenville's downtown look as nice as it does now if the city was the size of Columbia or Charleston? That's the real question.

I know this point has been made before, but I don't think it's a coincidence that Greenville's city limits only encompass about 30 or so square miles and that the surrounding landscape not in the city suffers from some pretty bad sprawl. That's another benefit of annexation--the city can excercise much tighter control over growth, whereas counties tend to rubber-stamp everything just to rake in the new revenue from big boxes and strip malls. Also, having a city of less than 60K servicing a county over 400K and a metro area over 550K puts a real strain on those 60K or so people (as well as the state) who are shouldering that disproportionate burden. The fiscal state of the city is affected by such a small populace relative to such a large urban area.

I'm not sure where county population figures came into the discussion, but Greenville County will always have the advantage here over Richland and Charleston counties because Greenville is centrally located to its county. Since sprawl/growth radiates from the city, Greenville County captures most of that growth within its boundaries, whereas a good bit of Columbia's and Charleston's sprawl/growth is going to adjacent counties due to the location of the city relative to county borders (near the edge).

Edited September 5, 2006 by krazeeboi

[erm1981]

I still think its going to end up hurting greenville in the long run if the city, at the very least, cant gets its population over 100,000+ like charleston and columbia have done already. I like greenville alot but south carolina has some stupid annexation laws and its hurting there cities too much.

[Spartan]

That's another benefit of annexation--the city can excercise much tighter control over growth, whereas counties tend to rubber-stamp everything just to rake in the new revenue from big boxes and strip malls.

Not really. While it is true for smaller urban areas like Rock Hill, the area around Greenville City is already built out. So if anything is annexed in, it doesn't do any good unless there is a plan to redevelop the area. Charleston and Columbia have managed to stay on top of annexation, so they are able to annex more suburban growth that places like Greenville or Spartanburg.

[krazeeboi]

Well yeah, that's what I meant--the undeveloped areas. The suburban corridors (eg, Woodruf, Harbison) that might get annexed would be primarily for revenue only. I can't see them being retrofitted in an urban fashion.

[erm1981]

Greenville is growing into Spartanburg and Anderson Counties which is why it is dumb to not have them in the MSA. I live in anderson county but always work in greenville. Same for tons of other people i know also that live in anderson county. Spartanburg and Anderson do have their own cities but that is not a valid reason not to include them in the metro if you still have tons of people from those cities commuting to greenville city/county

Edited September 6, 2006 by erm1981

[monsoon]

Greenville is growing into Spartanburg and Anderson Counties which is why it is dumb to not have them in the MSA. I live in anderson county but always work in greenville. Same for tons of other people i know also that live in anderson county. Spartanburg and Anderson do have their own cities but that is not a valid reason not to include them in the metro if you still have tons of people from those cities commuting to greenville city/county

The conditions that warrant a city being included in a MSA or in a different MSA are well defined. There isn't anything "dumb" about it. Either an area meets the conditions to be in a certain MSA or they dont. This has been discussed many times on this forum.

Aside from that, this has absolutely nothing to do with annexation laws. Please stick to the subject at hand.

[erm1981]

The conditions that warrant a city being included in a MSA or in a different MSA are well defined. There isn't anything "dumb" about it. Either an area meets the conditions to be in a certain MSA or they dont. This has been discussed many times on this forum.

Aside from that, this has absolutely nothing to do with annexation laws. Please stick to the subject at hand.

Thanks for addressing my little error there. I guess i owe you one. Anyways South Carolinas laws on annexation are going to take some time to change. I would think some laws that are more towards what north carolina has would be very useful for south carolina to have.

Edited September 6, 2006 by erm1981

[distortedlogic]

Actually you left out Horry County which added more than 30K. I think that number is a big underestimate given the amount of growth in Myrtle Beach.

I left out Horry because I was just using the three largest counties in the state, and they happen to be one form each of the three largest metros. Also, the original comparison was between Richland and Greenville.

[distortedlogic]

I agree that Greenville's predicament is detrimential. The best option for Greenville is to try to pass the Local Option Sales Tax, to reduce the incremental cost of living in the city. Short of that, I don't see much hope for the situation changing. One thing that will help some, is that Verdae will eventually add 10,000 or so residents. That might help Greenville stay in the top 10 awhile longer.

I too am happy about Verdae, but this will not reach potential for 15-20 years. By 2025, Cola and Chas may be well over 200k, and Gville will still be stuck around, what, 75k (barring massive annexation). So being out of the top 10 will not be far fetched. I remember hearing that Greer is already larger than Gville in area, so it could supass it in the future, for example.

[krazeeboi]

It could very well turn out to be a Norfolk/VA Beach situation in which the suburb is larger than the primary city.

[monsoon]

It could very well turn out to be a Norfolk/VA Beach situation in which the suburb is larger than the primary city.

It's my guess that Mt. Pleasant and North Charleston may do that to Charleston one day.

[vicupstate]

It's my guess that Mt. Pleasant and North Charleston may do that to Charleston one day.

While certainly possible, it doesn't seem too likely. Mount Pleasant now restricts building permits to an annual 3% growth rate. They only have one direction they can grow also. Eventually, they will run into Awendaw and the Conservation areas. North Charleston is mostly blocked by Charleston, Goose Creek and Summerville. If the Watson Hill case goes against North Charleston, they will be pretty limited in further annexation. Charleston still has a significant lead over each already, and can double in size within it's current limits. Plus there are still considerable areas in West Ashley, John's island and possibly even Wadmalaw Island for further annexation. Plus, HOPEFULLY, the remainder of James Island's will one day be unincorporated again.

[vicupstate]

How Mayor Riley snagged Daniel Island for Charleston

This article is a very detailed and comprehensive account of how Charleston successfully annexed Daniel Island in 1990. I remember when this happened, and it was quite controversial. Riley and his staff were very 'creative' in their methods to say the least. Unfortunately, given SC's archaric annexation laws, such things are required if a city in this satte is to actually grow.

It was also very controversial when Columbia annexed Columbiana Centre, in the early '90s. Unfortunately, the wounds of that intra-metro dispute seem to have lingered on, while the riff in the Trident over Daniel Island was largely been forgotten.