Will Charlotte ever have a second outer loop?

[monsoon]

A modern city needs to be connected by an advanced highway system if it wants to be a hub. Charlotte's growth and expanding prosperity far outstrip Vancouver or most other Canadian cities, so which one is "sustainable" or "livable" is very, very subjective.

I suggest that you go look at the world's largest most prosperious city in the world, Tokyo, for a fine example of where this simply isn't true. In fact most Asian cities are not ringed by highways and loop roads. Cities that depend upon superhighways and the continued exploitation of cheap land based on cheap petroleium for their growth, are living on a borrowed future. Charlotte falls into the latter category. Vancouver is far better off in the long run.

[wheatie]

Charlotte's growth and expanding prosperity far outstrip Vancouver or most other Canadian cities, so which one is "sustainable" or "livable" is very, very subjective.

This statement seems ill informed and unqualified. Have you been to Vancouver. It is one of the largest ports in the world. It is one of the fastest growing metros in Canada. It is very prosperous. Per capita income with today's dollar is actually higher in Vancouver than Charlotte. In 2001, the median household income was 56,036.44 USD in Greater Vancouver, and the median household income in Charlotte was 47,166 USD.

[Unifour]

The point of my posts was to correct the notion that there is something wrong with U.S. city development and that our way is "broken." I really did not intend to disparage Vancouver, as it is a beautiful city... If the "dense" lifestyle is appealing, then that's fine. It has its virtues, just the same. But it isn't preferred by most people. Around the world, density is falling. In Japan, in Europe, etc. The real, unbiased data show that the most crowded, dense cities are the most polluted, congested, etc. (ie Los Angeles is the most dense major metro in the U.S., but even it's pollution level is DECREASING, even as it's congestion has grown, and Tokyo being among the most congested and polluted). It is easy to see why dense, crowded cities aren't preferred. I just disagree strongly with the notion that people who choose suburbia are bad people, or selfish people, or that they should be "corrected" by smart growth propaganda. Both lifestyles attract different types, and I wish them both success.

Me no wanna argue!

[krazeeboi]

People can only choose what you make available. In that regard, people who opt for our badly-designed suburbia are not bad people, but smart growth is about providing more (and better) options. How is providing more options "social engineering" or anti-free market capitalism?

[monsoon]

The point of my posts was to correct the notion that there is something wrong with U.S. city development and that our way is "broken."

I totally disagree. When you have cities as small as Charlotte having air pollution alert days for most of the summer then something is terribly wrong with the way cities like this in the USA are being developed.

Also Tokyo simply isn't congested as in the western sense because 90% of the people don't use cars to go about their day to day activities. When you don't build roads, you don't have congestion. It also does not suffer from much air pollution compared to cities like Los Angeles, Atlanta, or even Charlotte that depend almost exclusively for the automobile for transit. The linkage is clear.

Finally the very large cities of the modern parts of the world where there are not many highways are some of the most desired and sought out places to live.

[AuLukey]

Unifour, you make way too many points for me to sit and argue with, but I agree with metro.

As for the I-85/77 interchange, it needs work, period. I just came back from a short trip to see some friends in Jacksonville, FL and the ammount of highway construction/widening is amazing to me. There are gorgeous bridges going up left and right there. They are completing the upgrade of the second half of their "outer loop" and the construction of interchanges there puts Charlotte to shame. Sure, the cost of living there is almost twofold of Charlotte (part of the reason why I moved here from Jax) but that also, in turn, means that Jacksonville's tax base is much larger as it is incorporated with the county. So, sure, the city has lots and lots more money than Charlotte, but I still believe that, even with the limited amount of room Charlotte has to work with, the 85/77 interchange could be ten times better.

The reason why I bring this up is the rate at which Jax is completing its highway projects and outer loop in comparison to Charlotte. They have one final interchange to do and they are done converting 9A to total limited access or changing it over to being the second half to 295. Finito. Charlotte has, what, 7 or 8 more years just to see a shovel in the ground for its final segment of 485? Before we worry about an outer outer loop, let's get the show on the road, finish the current project and upgrade our general infrastructure. Loops do not bring connectivity in many cases, they bring long-term congestion. Look at southern Charlotte.

[JerseyBoy]

Unifour, you make way too many points for me to sit and argue with, but I agree with metro.

As for the I-85/77 interchange, it needs work, period. I just came back from a short trip to see some friends in Jacksonville, FL and the ammount of highway construction/widening is amazing to me. There are gorgeous bridges going up left and right there. They are completing the upgrade of the second half of their "outer loop" and the construction of interchanges there puts Charlotte to shame. Sure, the cost of living there is almost twofold of Charlotte (part of the reason why I moved here from Jax) but that also, in turn, means that Jacksonville's tax base is much larger as it is incorporated with the county. So, sure, the city has lots and lots more money than Charlotte, but I still believe that, even with the limited amount of room Charlotte has to work with, the 85/77 interchange could be ten times better.

The reason why I bring this up is the rate at which Jax is completing its highway projects and outer loop in comparison to Charlotte. They have one final interchange to do and they are done converting 9A to total limited access or changing it over to being the second half to 295. Finito. Charlotte has, what, 7 or 8 more years just to see a shovel in the ground for its final segment of 485? Before we worry about an outer outer loop, let's get the show on the road, finish the current project and upgrade our general infrastructure. Loops do not bring connectivity in many cases, they bring long-term congestion. Look at southern Charlotte.

Well also Florida is a much better managed state than North Carolina and they can fund the DOT fully and not snag a few million dollars each year from the transportation budget. But, also Florida has 2 or 3 times the number of people we have living in our state contributing to the tax base so that also makes a difference. If only we had tolls. I took a roadtrip this summer to New England and Toronto this summer with a few friends I have met here in North Carolina and I got kind of tired hearing them complain about tolls in Baltimore and in Jersey on the Turnpike. I explained to them that even though you pay tolls in the north, your roads are much better and aren't as clogged as they are in the south. If we were to toll I-485, I-77, or even I-277 people would be prejudice towards them at first but I have a feeling they would warm up to them because your roads would be wider and not congested as much and you'd get to Point B from Point A faster so it would be worth it to pay .50 or $1.00. I would rather pay $1.00 on I-85 to get on I-77 on a modern high speed 4 level stacked interchange than pay nothing and end up risking my life on narrow ramps that lean the wrong way and are over capacity but merge into traffic that won't even let you in. If you think about it, it makes sense.

[AuLukey]

Well also Florida is a much better managed state than North Carolina and they can fund the DOT fully and not snag a few million dollars each year from the transportation budget. But, also Florida has 2 or 3 times the number of people we have living in our state contributing to the tax base so that also makes a difference. If only we had tolls. I took a roadtrip this summer to New England and Toronto this summer with a few friends I have met here in North Carolina and I got kind of tired hearing them complain about tolls in Baltimore and in Jersey on the Turnpike. I explained to them that even though you pay tolls in the north, your roads are much better and aren't as clogged as they are in the south. If we were to toll I-485, I-77, or even I-277 people would be prejudice towards them at first but I have a feeling they would warm up to them because your roads would be wider and not congested as much and you'd get to Point B from Point A faster so it would be worth it to pay .50 or $1.00. I would rather pay $1.00 on I-85 to get on I-77 on a modern high speed 4 level stacked interchange than pay nothing and end up risking my life on narrow ramps that lean the wrong way and are over capacity but merge into traffic that won't even let you in. If you think about it, it makes sense.

While I agree with you, Jacksonville is to Florida what Asheville, Hickory, and Fayetteville are to North Carolina. You would think that it would be neglected in favor of the other three metros. Then again, their capital is not their second largest city with an ego problem like in NC. I wish the capital was moved back to New Bern. I'm sure that solves a few issues as far as bias in the legislature.

I believe in tolls. They do plenty of good and, for people who complain, you can get those passes if you drive by the toll every day so that all you do is drive through a certain lane without stopping. If you didn't buy one of those passes and say you drove past a .50 toll every day going to and from work. There's $261 per person going towards the roadway. That's really not that much in the grand scheme but 50,000+ other people worth helps pay for your southern 485 widening people are craving so badly. It makes economical sense.