Grand Rapids Public Schools

[torgo]

I think I figured out why I find your posts so disturbing.

It seems your central point of reference for everything is form rather than function.

These are schools; their primary purpose is to provide an environment conducive to educating our young. The point of the building is not to "integrate the neighborhood" or "reinforce the typology" of a school building. The point is to educate.

I have to disagree here. Yes, the point of a school is to educate, but what's wrong with designing a school so it fits with the character of the neighborhood? If we were to a take a "form follows function" attitude, wouldn't we just end up with a bunch of cinder-block bunkers for schools? Of course, there has to be a limit since they are public facilities and all.

I think there needs to be more of a form over function attitude, and not just in cities, but everywhere. It seems like everything is designed from the inside-out now, and while it may be nice for the people on the inside, it sucks for those of us who have to look at the ugly monstrosity from the outside every day.

[localtalent]

I have to disagree here. Yes, the point of a school is to educate, but what's wrong with designing a school so it fits with the character of the neighborhood? If we were to a take a "form follows function" attitude, wouldn't we just end up with a bunch of cinder-block bunkers for schools? Of course, there has to be a limit since they are public facilities and all.

I think there needs to be more of a form over function attitude, and not just in cities, but everywhere. It seems like everything is designed from the inside-out now, and while it may be nice for the people on the inside, it sucks for those of us who have to look at the ugly monstrosity from the outside every day.

That isn't at all what I'm saying. I like the examples provided in this thread. I think their designs are good and show a commitment to the neighborhoods these schools are a part of. Are they traditional in their design? No. Do they have elements which maintain a sense of the legacy from which they come? Yes.

My point was more to counter the "never build new" argument that GRTP seems to hold.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with making sure a building looks nice. I am not an advocate of bunker-based education!

Look at the addition to Central High School on Fountain.

GRDad- are you saying the neighborhood around Central declined because of this addition? I just think that's a stretch. Buildings don't make neighborhoods decline, people do. An ugly new building doesn't change the economics of a neighborhood.

However, I do agree that we have a civic obligation to provide citizens with buildings that don't insult their senses.

[torgo]

thanks for clearing that up...I was getting worried!

[GRDadof3]

GRDad- are you saying the neighborhood around Central declined because of this addition? I just think that's a stretch. Buildings don't make neighborhoods decline, people do. An ugly new building doesn't change the economics of a neighborhood.

However, I do agree that we have a civic obligation to provide citizens with buildings that don't insult their senses.

I would say most certainly yes, bad architecture can create bad neighborhoods. Look at Streeterville near Michigan Avenue in Chicago. Of all the areas near Michigan that are full of life, Streeterville is a desolate, unfriendly place to pedestrians, and where many of the vagrants end up at night. If you look around there during the day, you'll notice blocks and blocks of street level parking garages designed in the 70's, 80's and 90's that are just awful. Most of them have no windows, just blank concrete (or even barred entrances) affronting the senses as you mentioned. Even the large hotels in that area did not include much of a ground floor to the neighborhood, and it suffered because of that.

Good architecture can inspire, create a feeling of security, create friendly gathering places, and can stimulate growth. I think it affects pyschology more than you give it credit.

On another note, I can't speak for GRTP, but I would say he/she is definitely not a "build nothing new" person. I believe GRTP is working on quite a few new projects as we speak.

[DwntwnGeo]

On another note, I can't speak for GRTP, but I would say he/she is definitely not a "build nothing new" person. I believe GRTP is working on quite a few new projects as we speak.

Whether he/she is working on building new projects or not, the tone of his posts seem to be more one sided, in my opinion. I won't say that it doesn't have anything to do with a neighborhood, but I would find it hard to believe the everyone will leave their homes, because they don't like the outside look of the new school built around the corner. More of the question is whether the building is doing the job it was intended to do: Teaching our children. I would want my children to go to the best school posible and not the one that looks the best in the neighborhood! As a matter of fact, my parents (who are farmers) bought a seperate house 20 miles away so their children could get the best education in the County. They could have cared less what it looked like, they cared about what the end product was.

[Mark Miller]

I find GRTP's posts refreshing and thought-provoking, and I'm glad you've joined the discussion here GR Town Planner! I don't always agree, but I think that the main point is that in addition to function, when building in an urban environment, form must also have a place. What good is a school with an interior designed for the "lastest whizbang learning techniques (obsolete in 5 years BTW)" when the entire neighborhood around it empties out because the school does not blend well with the neighborhood. Not saying that it's the case here, because I haven't actually walked around the schools under construction.

Has anyone else on this board actually walked around them?

In addition, as far as vinyl windows go, aren't they rated to last a lot longer than wood framed or aluminum framed windows? (PVC takes thousands of years to decompose in a landfill) And especially for a school on a limited budget, shouldn't they be adding windows that need virtually no maintenance?

On Saturday morning, I walked around this building. I stand corrected on the operable windows in that some of the windows on this building are operable double hung windows. Aluminum windows, not vinyl. The GRPS and designers should be given credit for including operable windows, I can very much appreciate that addition. I can only hope that they use them. My point in this regard is that too many buildings today are built hermetically sealed from the outside. Because they are sealed and have no operable windows they need to be either heated or cooled almost every single day of the year. In Michigan we certainly have a few days that do not require heating or cooling, as the outside air is pleasant.

This, however does not change the fact that the west wall is a long blank wall of masonry with one double door in it. It is neither enjoyable to walk next to or to look at from the other side of the street. Also note that the double door is an egress only door, it has no hardware on it from the outside. This wall is symbolic of a detention facility. What are they trying to keep in...or out? It says go away. Did the designers visit the site to see that people actually live across from this?

What these blank walls do to a neighborhood is cause people to not walk down that street. People will typically walk where it is more pleasant and safe, where there are front porches and windows. Because front porches and windows allow for "eyes on the street" (discussed by Jane Jacobs many years ago) which at least makes the street feel more safe. This insertion may ruin street life here. Street life on any block is important, especially by a school. This kind of building practice does hurt a street, a block and a neighborhood.

As far as the vinyl window question, while they may last longer due to their material, there are many other questions. Because they are relatively new, we do not know how they will hold up. How will they react to solar exposure over a 20 year period or to freeze thaw cycles? Will they discolor? Will they warp?

But the most important thing, IMO, is that when these windows fail (and they will at some point), how will they be repaired? I have nearly 100 year old windows in my house. They are made of old growth wood. I can repair them with practically no skills. They are low tech. I need no special tools. I doubt the same can be said of vinyl.

Lastly, if anyone is interested in the detail of these buildings, please take a walk around them. The execution has been done fairly average. Look at how the aluminum windows butt up against each other. Look at how the "curving" windows come together. Look at the quality of the aluminum window units, particularly the double hungs. Look at how much sealant was used at joints. After taking a look at this stuff, ask yourself if this building will stand as long as the old Henry School stood?

I have no problem with new buildings. I have a problem with poorly designed and poorly executed new construction.

[Mark Miller]

There are countless examples of areas that have become economically depressed and crime-ridden because of poor architecture and poor neighborhood layout. A building that looks good now just because all the materials are right out of the factory, may not look good in relation to the neighborhood once the materials start to fade. Look at the addition to Central High School on Fountain. It may have looked cool when first built, but it looks so out of place now.

Believe me, I think it's fantastic that GRPS is updating and renovating their facilities. The better lighting, air handling, classroom layouts, ease of use, size of the lockers, modern plumbing, and much more all give students a boost in spirit and can greatly increase their attitudes, which in turn hopefully will stimulate learning.

On the corner of Fountain and College sits the former City High and Middle School. It is sitting right by the Fountain Elementary (New Montessori) and Central High. This building is an abomination in both planning and in architecture.

Why does it sit on the site skewed!? Why does it present nothing in regards to the public realm? Compare it to the other two buildings.

Did it ruin any neighborhoods? Not sure, but it sure as heck didn't help them either. It offered nothing by way of the public realm.

This school is a very successful school. What is going on in the inside is good. But what is going on with the outside is not good. With this piece of architecture, the argument of form following function breaks down. This building could have been 100 times better and not had any impact on the quality of the inside.

[Mark Miller]

I have to disagree here. Yes, the point of a school is to educate, but what's wrong with designing a school so it fits with the character of the neighborhood? If we were to a take a "form follows function" attitude, wouldn't we just end up with a bunch of cinder-block bunkers for schools? Of course, there has to be a limit since they are public facilities and all.

I think there needs to be more of a form over function attitude, and not just in cities, but everywhere. It seems like everything is designed from the inside-out now, and while it may be nice for the people on the inside, it sucks for those of us who have to look at the ugly monstrosity from the outside every day.

Well said. Everything is designed from the inside out. The morphed Louis Sullivan doctrine of "Form following Function" used as the rationale. I do not think that is what he meant.

It is nice for people on the inside. So are snout houses that present nothing but a three stall garage and 4 four foot recessed front entry. We have degraded the public realm so much that we just accept all of this as "just the way it is".

[Mark Miller]

I think I figured out why I find your posts so disturbing.

It seems your central point of reference for everything is form rather than function.

These are schools; their primary purpose is to provide an environment conducive to educating our young. The point of the building is not to "integrate the neighborhood" or "reinforce the typology" of a school building. The point is to educate.

To that end, some of the older spaces needes to be rebuilt. There's an overwhelming amount of research supporting the changes in learning environments with these new schools. You seem content to simply say "It was good enough for me, why change". I'm sorry, but that doesn't cut it for my kids. And it shouldn't be good enough for the kids at Henry.

Now, as for the architecture itself...I think it's actually quite impressive. You have a community making a statement about it's schools through the architecture I see here. That statement is "these are important spaces". You may not like the new buildings, but they are notable and intelligent.

You are mistaken. My central point of reference is both form and function. The school in question has divorced function from form. The architects who design this stuff can hide behind the form following function adage, but that is not what is happening here. While the design of the inside most certainly dictated things on the outside (how else can the blank wall be defended!?), the building's function and form seem as unrelated as possible. This function was wrapped with a stylized wall paper, the exact same thing that the modernists would accuse the traditionalists of doing. How else can you explain that this building, in mass, form and detail is almost no different than an office building on East Paris or a light industrial building in an industrial park?

This is a drawing by Leon Krier from the book, Architecture Choice or Fate. I feel it is appropriate here.

Power station or palace of culture? School or plastic injection facility?

I am a recovering architect. For over 10 years I did this kind of stuff. Then I went to Italy and came back to the U.S. and realized the error in my ways. The main purpose of architecture is to define the public realm. Right now, we are not achieving that with our architecture.

[Rizzo]

Sorry to interrupt, but why not make Grand Rapids a architectural hotbed of proper teachings and theory with this ratio of function and form? I understand we are a hotbed in LEED, why not this? GR Town Planner, you intrigue my mind with your comments, carry on with this enlighten discussion.

[GR1]

I agree with GRTP, my first thought when reading this thread was, 'if they can turn Union High School into Union Square's $200-$400 thousand dollar condos, why can't they find a way to renovate, upgrade or add on to the current school buildings to be acceptable places of learning?'.

Downtown Geo, you said "More of the question is whether the building is doing the job it was intended to do: Teaching our children."

I understand completely that the building itself plays a part in the overall learning environment for the children of our community. But, isn't it the teachers job to teach the children? And can't that same teaching happen in any classroom? Changing the appearance and structure of a building may create a more likable environment for the children to learn in, but ultimately the teaching/learning is happening between the students and the instructor. These buildings have been doing their job, they're housing the students while they attend class. And they can continue to do that job, they may need upgrades and renovations as time goes on, but it can be done.

[DwntwnGeo]

I agree with GRTP, my first thought when reading this thread was, 'if they can turn Union High School into Union Square's $200-$400 thousand dollar condos, why can't they find a way to renovate, upgrade or add on to the current school buildings to be acceptable places of learning?'.

Downtown Geo, you said "More of the question is whether the building is doing the job it was intended to do: Teaching our children."

I understand completely that the building itself plays a part in the overall learning environment for the children of our community. But, isn't it the teachers job to teach the children? And can't that same teaching happen in any classroom? Changing the appearance and structure of a building may create a more likable environment for the children to learn in, but ultimately the teaching/learning is happening between the students and the instructor. These buildings have been doing their job, they're housing the students while they attend class. And they can continue to do that job, they may need upgrades and renovations as time goes on, but it can be done.

I didn't realize any of the condos in Union Square were into the $400k area?

I agree that the interaction between the teachers and students is very important. I was more trying to counter attack the views that people would leave their neighborhood because the exterior of the school wasn't Urban enough or too suburban as GRTP and others have mentioned. As you stated above, shouldn't matter what your school looks like if you have great student&teacher interaction. Most of you are parents, are you going to dictate what education your children get based on the exterior of the school building? Most of you are pitching a fit that you have to leave the city because of the "suburbs" have better scores etc. Do you think if they built an older styling or multi-story urban school like they must have in Chicago or New York, that you would pull your children out of their suburban schools and put them here instead just because you like the look better?

[DwntwnGeo]

This, however does not change the fact that the west wall is a long blank wall of masonry with one double door in it. It is neither enjoyable to walk next to or to look at from the other side of the street. Also note that the double door is an egress only door, it has no hardware on it from the outside. This wall is symbolic of a detention facility. What are they trying to keep in...or out? It says go away. Did the designers visit the site to see that people actually live across from this?

What these blank walls do to a neighborhood is cause people to not walk down that street. People will typically walk where it is more pleasant and safe, where there are front porches and windows. Because front porches and windows allow for "eyes on the street" (discussed by Jane Jacobs many years ago) which at least makes the street feel more safe. This insertion may ruin street life here. Street life on any block is important, especially by a school. This kind of building practice does hurt a street, a block and a neighborhood.

Have you seen the plans for this school? I have not. You seem to dislike or "hate" this windowless wall so much but do you know what it is for? I don't think it would be class room or Library, but probably the pool, gym or auditorium, in which you probably wouldnt' want windos anyway. These building would have to be somewhere on the school property. From the tone of your posts you would grip or pitch a fit if the wall was placed anywhere because some homeowner would have to see it at some point.

Yes, porches and windows are nice and I can see how people would feel more secure and safe. But is this wall towering over the street? When do most people walk? They walk the most in my neighborhood during the evening when it is cooler and they are home from work. If you had windows in that wall, what difference would it make? They school will be closed at 3:30 and there won't be any teachers or students or activites in the classes (for the most part). You guys are making a something huge out of nothing that important (IMHO). This is not a vibrate downtown street with retail and a huge supply of pedistrians wanting to shop and look around.

[GRCentro]

I live very close to the new Alger Middle School. Given the recent conversations about the neighborhood presence of schools, I went around the block, taking the majority of the photos from the sidewalk.

The Best

- Deliberate effort was made to preserve many of the old trees. The view from the corner of Blaine and Alger, shown in the last two photos, is especially nice.

- The new ball fields and basketball courts on the rear half of the lot. I think the neighbors will gladly use these park-like spaces. Neighborhood kids have already been using the basketball courts non-stop since the second the blacktop dried.

The Not-so-best

- The front parking lot on the SW corner of the lot (second and third photos). I understand parking is necessary, but couldn't they have saved any of the trees that were there? Now it looks rather bald compared to the rest of the site.

- The glossy blue brick. Are they trying to mimic my shower tiles? Much like my bathroom walls, I think this decoration will quickly fall from grace and, in the furture, will become the building's biggest age indicator. (Oh, that school sooo turn-of-the-century. Just look at that shiny brick! )

All in all, I shed no tears for the old Alger Elementary. As grand as she once was, her time was up. As a whole, the building lacked the space and facilities needed to become a middle school. The building's structure and cracking concrete walls were unable to accomodate the much needed upgrades and expansions. We should not consider a particular design as a permanent, end-all solution. Change, although often unpredictable, is inevitable. Although they are usually the most resistent to change, civic and institutional buildings are no exception to it. They must be able to ride the wave, or be replaced.

Of course, I preferred the old school's craftmanship and facade over the newer, but that's about all.

[Prankster]

Looks like they subscribed to the same philosophy that suburban strill malls do, put the parking in the front. Putting the school closer to the street, with some greenspace inbetween, and parking in the back would have helped it blend in better with the environment. Just my uneducated opinion.

[DwntwnGeo]

GRCentro,

Thanks for posting the pics. They are a nice visual aid to the discussion.

[Veloise]

I agree with GRTP, my first thought when reading this thread was, 'if they can turn Union High School into Union Square's $200-$400 thousand dollar condos, why can't they find a way to renovate, upgrade or add on to the current school buildings to be acceptable places of learning?'. ...

The former Union School was sold to developers, who are building the condos. Although education is in their slogan ("old school, new cool"), the building ceased to be a school some years ago. And the developers have more capital to play with, and less "hey that's our tax dollars you're wasting!" to work around.

BTW, the building is pretty much completely gutted and rebuilt from within.

[numstead]

Thanks for the pics of Alger GRCentro! I too live nearby (closer to Brookside El.) and have driven passed Alger School almost daily for many many years. The new building is definitely a needed upgrade and is tremendously successful design in my opinion.

While the parking lot is somewhat awkward looking right now, because of a lack of trees surrounding it, I can't imagine putting it anywhere else on the site.

I'm probably the only person I know that actually likes blue glazed bricks on the building (even my uncle, who managed the project for URS, told me he wasn't crazy about them). Here's why...

1. The blue is only used in a couple places where there are distinct vertical forms, blue=sky, the forms dressed in blue draw your eye upward to the sky

2. The glossiness of the blue brick is a nice change in texture from the darker rough brick, visually and tactilly unique

3. I don't know of any other school with glossy tile on it, so the blue forms give the building a memorable quality

4. Its blue, I love blue!

A couple other things I like are the black mullions, black horizontal banding between windows, and the milky spandrel glass. They give the building a very put-together, very dressed-up, very formal, very classy appearance. Brilliant.

[Mark Miller]

Have you seen the plans for this school? I have not. You seem to dislike or "hate" this windowless wall so much but do you know what it is for? I don't think it would be class room or Library, but probably the pool, gym or auditorium, in which you probably wouldnt' want windos anyway. These building would have to be somewhere on the school property. From the tone of your posts you would grip or pitch a fit if the wall was placed anywhere because some homeowner would have to see it at some point.

Yes, porches and windows are nice and I can see how people would feel more secure and safe. But is this wall towering over the street? When do most people walk? They walk the most in my neighborhood during the evening when it is cooler and they are home from work. If you had windows in that wall, what difference would it make? They school will be closed at 3:30 and there won't be any teachers or students or activites in the classes (for the most part). You guys are making a something huge out of nothing that important (IMHO). This is not a vibrate downtown street with retail and a huge supply of pedistrians wanting to shop and look around.

There are basic rules of urban infill which should be followed. One of them is to not put blank walls at the street. This building does, for whatever reason, and as a result has failed at that level.

Personally, I don't give a rip what is happening on the inside, whether it is an auditorium, pool or bowling alley. It is the designer's mandate to program and layout the building so that these things can co-exist in an urban setting. This is a suburban solution to an urban problem. The constraints of urban siting are just another factor when design is occuring and in this case it is evident that someone dropped the ball.

As far as this not being a vibrant street, I really have to take exception to that. It is a few blocks off from Wealthy, where some commercial vibrancy is coming back, it is one of a series of connectors from the southern neighborhoods to Wealthy Street and it has a civic presence, which should (if executed properly) give it a hierarchial advantage over the other connectors.

[DwntwnGeo]

There are basic rules of urban infill which should be followed. One of them is to not put blank walls at the street. This building does, for whatever reason, and as a result has failed at that level.

Personally, I don't give a rip what is happening on the inside, whether it is an auditorium, pool or bowling alley. It is the designer's mandate to program and layout the building so that these things can co-exist in an urban setting. This is a suburban solution to an urban problem. The constraints of urban siting are just another factor when design is occuring and in this case it is evident that someone dropped the ball.

As far as this not being a vibrant street, I really have to take exception to that. It is a few blocks off from Wealthy, where some commercial vibrancy is coming back, it is one of a series of connectors from the southern neighborhoods to Wealthy Street and it has a civic presence, which should (if executed properly) give it a hierarchial advantage over the other connectors.

Wow, seems as you know all the answers to everything dealing with Urban areas. Have you ever thought about joining the Planning Commission so you can present the rules and mandates to the developer before they get started? If these rules or mandates are so important to Grand Rapids and its communities than it is a shame that they even get off the drawing table.

You mentioned in a previous post, that you have been an Architech for 10 years or so. Would you care to share some of your "perfect" developements? I am sure you have followed all the rules that you would like to set forth on the rest of the community.

[GRDadof3]

Alright, I think this discussion has run its course and some people are getting raw nerves about it. I come from the school of "I think I know what's best, until someone comes along and shows me something better". Until I see something better, it's hard for me to visualize what idea is trying to be conveyed. I hate to see the GR School Board take a beating on the designs after trying so desperately to get taxpayers to invest in the schools.

I really like the blue golscorer. I hope it stands the test of time.

[GRNetAdmin]

Along with the building upgrades they need some teacher upgrades.

Also, I went to GRPS and our art, gym, and music classes were all cut because of no money in the district. Parents came to the school to volunteer to be gym teachers so we could still have gym class. But then again, this was a loooong time ago

[GRDadof3]

3 new schools designed to create special feeling

Lavatory sinks in the corridors? Hmmm, that's a new one.

[GRDadof3]

GRPS new schools attracting new students

Apparently the new schools are being well received by parents and students. It will be interesting to see if the new Superintendent can increase the service levels and academic performance levels.

[andrew.w]

3 new schools designed to create special feeling

Lavatory sinks in the corridors? Hmmm, that's a new one.

If I understand what is meant by lavatory sinks in the corridors, it sounds like a revival of what was done in at least a couple schools built in the 70's (such as Cedar Springs Middle School), which had large half round basins with three faucets outside of each pair of restrooms.