Hartford

[drc72]

Wow Jacksonville is almost the size of Rhode Island... Nothing beats Juneau, AK, though, it's 2,718 sq. miles...

Juneau can almost be a state in itself.

[CtownMikey]

unless the surrounding cities/towns of hartford have a higher density than hartford itself, what good would it do to annex them? I's much rather live in Providence population 180k where the population density is 3,629.4/km

[Lone Ranger]

Wow Jacksonville is almost the size of Rhode Island... Nothing beats Juneau, AK, though, it's 2,718 sq. miles...

Over 2,000mi

[runawayjim]

unless the surrounding cities/towns of hartford have a higher density than hartford itself, what good would it do to annex them? I's much rather live in Providence population 180k where the population density is 3,629.4/km

[MadVlad]

The density doesn't bug me one way or the other, I'd rather have sheer numbers. Also, it would drop Hartford off of all those "Bottom 5 worst BS" lists. It would also kill Hartford's rep, if someone from out of town cruised by the current West Hartford Center, and it was actually in Hartford, they'd say "Wow, Hartford is a really, really nice place", not that it isn't already, but at least it would water down the myriad bad press....

[runawayjim]

The density doesn't bug me one way or the other, I'd rather have sheer numbers. Also, it would drop Hartford off of all those "Bottom 5 worst BS" lists. It would also kill Hartford's rep, if someone from out of town cruised by the current West Hartford Center, and it was actually in Hartford, they'd say "Wow, Hartford is a really, really nice place", not that it isn't already, but at least it would water down the myriad bad press....

that sounds like making the problems better without having to do anything about the problems. to me, that'd make me worry about the current problems just slipping through the cracks because crime rates will drop with annexation. and it causes hartford to become far less urban.

and why are the sheer numbers so important? sounds like it's to just become better in a pissing contest.

[MadVlad]

Isn't density just as big a pissing contest? Numbers are just numbers, whether straight up population or density. What it will do is help to change to prevalent opinion of Hartford, which is needed....

[runawayjim]

Isn't density just as big a pissing contest? Numbers are just numbers, whether straight up population or density. What it will do is help to change to prevalent opinion of Hartford, which is needed....

it will give false impressions of hartford. before hartford can consider annexation, the current problems need to be solved... it would do more harm than good to just brush over those problems and take in other cities and call them part of hartford.

density at least makes hartford more urban and more of a city. i'd rather live in a small city that feels like a city than a place like atlanta.

[robm324]

I agree with MadVlad on this one...lower density is not going to get you any articles in the newspaper that will scare off potential residents or visitors to the city, but those stupid crime statistic articles will....a better public perception would go a long way to help the city of Hartford....

....but increasing perspective is not the only thing that would be helped by annexation...it would help the region as a whole by eliminating some redundant services that are in place when ever surrounding town has its own police, fire, etc.. You can't tell me that the city and towns that are annexed into one would not act more efficiently if they were all central. Economies of scale come to mind...

[MadVlad]

Heh, listen, I'm all for density too, however, much of Hartford's problem is image, which could be helped by getting a town like West Hartford under it's thumb. It's that simple. Will it cure the shootings in the North End? no. Will it give people a safer opinion of the city? yes. That's I'm shooting for with this. Trust me, I'm good with some density too. Of anyone on this board, I'm the biggest proponent of building tall, large buildings, specifically residential. But to say that population numbers are just a pissing contest, but density numbers somehow are not is just wrong...

[SOCOM]

But to say that population numbers are just a pissing contest, but density numbers somehow are not is just wrong...

Exactly. Density is just a number as well.

By the way, there are lots of advantages no one has touched on...

1) Better social services (more $$$ from the rich towns, and no all of a sudden the rich people in West Hartford are foreced to care about the welfare of Hartford because they are affected as well)

2) Consolodated police/fire/etc. Better response times, etc.

3) More of a community working together rather than each little town/city thumbing their noses at their neighbors across the border.

4) More diversity. Not just racial diversity but social class diversity. Right now Hartford is basically all poor people. Throw in 65,000 middle class/upper class residents and all of a sudden there's more money for things like sprucing up parks or after school programs for kids.

5) Better public schools. West Hartford residents won't be able to turn a blind eye towards the Hartford public schools anymore, because their own kids will be attending.

These are 5 of many advantages to annexing the other Hartford's, particularly W. Hartford.

[HartfordTycoon]

I agree with MadVlad here. Those total population numbers translate into $$$ whereas density in and of itself does not. Personally, I want those West Hartford tax dollars going directly to Downtown Hartford instead of having to filter through the state first. Also, I would like the numbers to look better on paper as well. That brings in more investment dollars as well. If it makes dollars than it makes sense to me. However, since it's not going to happen screw it. Hartford is great and we have great suburbs. I can deal with that.

[CtownMikey]

Exactly. Density is just a number as well.

By the way, there are lots of advantages no one has touched on...

4) More diversity. Not just racial diversity but social class diversity. Right now Hartford is basically all poor people. Throw in 65,000 middle class/upper class residents and all of a sudden there's more money for things like sprucing up parks or after school programs for kids.

These 65k residents are already paying taxes for the land area that you will be acquiring. And if I assume correct, these neighboring towns are pretty well kept and will require its current tax rate to keep them as nice as they are. Besides an increase in raw numbers and maybe getting a better image.. how does annexation help as far as taxes for the city are concerned.

yes.. more people = more taxes... but more people = more land area that all of their tax money goes to.

[runawayjim]

adding a tax base that covers the services they already have will not increase response times or tax revenue for the city. those taxes already pay for services and infrastructure in their respective cities. you can't take that money and simply make what used to be hartford better while forgetting about the rest.

as for image... you can work on that now. it's a lot harder, but it'd go a lot farther than the false image annexation brings.

it seems to me like you've all given up on the idea of urbanism and love sprawl. look at cities like atlanta where the population density is really low. the city is almost entirely sprawl. heck, even parts of philly are disgustingly spawled out.

[drc72]

Exactly. Density is just a number as well.

By the way, there are lots of advantages no one has touched on...

1) Better social services (more $$$ from the rich towns, and no all of a sudden the rich people in West Hartford are foreced to care about the welfare of Hartford because they are affected as well)

2) Consolodated police/fire/etc. Better response times, etc.

3) More of a community working together rather than each little town/city thumbing their noses at their neighbors across the border.

4) More diversity. Not just racial diversity but social class diversity. Right now Hartford is basically all poor people. Throw in 65,000 middle class/upper class residents and all of a sudden there's more money for things like sprucing up parks or after school programs for kids.

5) Better public schools. West Hartford residents won't be able to turn a blind eye towards the Hartford public schools anymore, because their own kids will be attending.

These are 5 of many advantages to annexing the other Hartford's, particularly W. Hartford.

You make a lot of good points Socom. That added population and consolidation of services would serve both areas more efficiently.

[Yankee.Peddler]

I also agree with MadVlad here. Another advantage to sheer population numbers is additional Federal funding for local services. Most of the Federal funding distributed to cities for law enforcement, housing, and community development is distributed by a formula that heavily weighs population. If Hartford and its inner suburbs (I don't think West Hartford needs to be singled out) were to consolidate theoretically into one municipality, then those Federal resources would increase. The benefit would be reaped by a larger area.

[MadVlad]

adding a tax base that covers the services they already have will not increase response times or tax revenue for the city. those taxes already pay for services and infrastructure in their respective cities. you can't take that money and simply make what used to be hartford better while forgetting about the rest.

as for image... you can work on that now. it's a lot harder, but it'd go a lot farther than the false image annexation brings.

it seems to me like you've all given up on the idea of urbanism and love sprawl. look at cities like atlanta where the population density is really low. the city is almost entirely sprawl. heck, even parts of philly are disgustingly spawled out.

Brother, you aren't making sense. I could see you calling it "embracing sprawl" if nothing was currently there, but the town is already there. It isn't like we are building new part to the city, it already exists. It won't be any more sprawl than it currently is. Also, from a marketing standpoint, a city of 200k or 260k is much more attractive than a city of 124k. Again, I fail to see the big deal about the density, the numbers will change but it isn't like people are moving out. So what if the number for the city is watered down, no one really cares about that except geeks on message boards like us Besides, with all the condo buildings going up in downtown, BBS and the other projects in WH, that number will be rising anyways.

[runawayjim]

Brother, you aren't making sense. I could see you calling it "embracing sprawl" if nothing was currently there, but the town is already there. It isn't like we are building new part to the city, it already exists. It won't be any more sprawl than it currently is. Also, from a marketing standpoint, a city of 200k or 260k is much more attractive than a city of 124k. Again, I fail to see the big deal about the density, the numbers will change but it isn't like people are moving out. So what if the number for the city is watered down, no one really cares about that except geeks on message boards like us Besides, with all the condo buildings going up in downtown, BBS and the other projects in WH, that number will be rising anyways.

you're all talking about how there will be more money for services. there's already money for services and those services are provided by the towns currently. it will not help hartford or htose towns by increasing the number of people and the tax base because it's already there. someone mentioned better services and better response times. i'm failing to see how that would work because it would simply mean that they just keep what's already in place in those towns and change the name on the vehicles.

also, a city of 200-260k would probably still pale in comparison to the nearby behemoths of new york and boston... the main reason cities like hartford and providence don't shine as much as they could (not that it's a bad thing).

[blink55184]

also, a city of 200-260k would probably still pale in comparison to the nearby behemoths of new york and boston... the main reason cities like hartford and providence don't shine as much as they could (not that it's a bad thing).

Not necessarily their population numbers, but both Hartford and Providence's proximity to NYC and Boston.

Especially Providence, it is basically in Bostons shadow. Even people from Providence commute into Boston for work and leisure.

[MadVlad]

you're all talking about how there will be more money for services. there's already money for services and those services are provided by the towns currently. it will not help hartford or htose towns by increasing the number of people and the tax base because it's already there. someone mentioned better services and better response times. i'm failing to see how that would work because it would simply mean that they just keep what's already in place in those towns and change the name on the vehicles.

also, a city of 200-260k would probably still pale in comparison to the nearby behemoths of new york and boston... the main reason cities like hartford and providence don't shine as much as they could (not that it's a bad thing).

I actually think our proximity is a boon, not a detriment. It's easier to draw employees. People from NYC/Boston might balk to moving to Charlotte or Omaha, but probably wouldn't bat an eye having to move to Hartford/Providence. I never understood the problem with being close, are there too many people? When has that ever been a problem. Stamford is a perfect example, it has done awesome just because it's close to NYC. Within 10 years, I'm estimating it'll be the biggest city in CT (unless Hartford gets it's stuff together). Is Stamford too close to NYC for it's own good? Hells no.

[runawayjim]

I actually think our proximity is a boon, not a detriment. It's easier to draw employees. People from NYC/Boston might balk to moving to Charlotte or Omaha, but probably wouldn't bat an eye having to move to Hartford/Providence. I never understood the problem with being close, are there too many people? When has that ever been a problem. Stamford is a perfect example, it has done awesome just because it's close to NYC. Within 10 years, I'm estimating it'll be the biggest city in CT (unless Hartford gets it's stuff together). Is Stamford too close to NYC for it's own good? Hells no.

stamford's not trying to attract people. it's happening naturally as new york and the towns closest become too expensive.

[Bill Mocarsky]

I actually think our proximity is a boon, not a detriment. It's easier to draw employees. People from NYC/Boston might balk to moving to Charlotte or Omaha, but probably wouldn't bat an eye having to move to Hartford/Providence. I never understood the problem with being close, are there too many people? When has that ever been a problem. Stamford is a perfect example, it has done awesome just because it's close to NYC. Within 10 years, I'm estimating it'll be the biggest city in CT (unless Hartford gets it's stuff together). Is Stamford too close to NYC for it's own good? Hells no.

One advantage of being 100 miles from Boston and NYC is you can choose to be a Bruins fan or a Rangers fan......a Red Sox fan or Yankees fan etc.

I see the downside (maybe I should say challenge) of being in between NYC and Boston is the limited sphere of influence.

If Stamford's population doubled, would its sphere of influence increase drastically?

[SOCOM]

you're all talking about how there will be more money for services. there's already money for services and those services are provided by the towns currently. it will not help hartford or htose towns by increasing the number of people and the tax base because it's already there. someone mentioned better services and better response times. i'm failing to see how that would work because it would simply mean that they just keep what's already in place in those towns and change the name on the vehicles.

also, a city of 200-260k would probably still pale in comparison to the nearby behemoths of new york and boston... the main reason cities like hartford and providence don't shine as much as they could (not that it's a bad thing).

The sheer fact that West Hartford residents will be Hartford residents makes the idea of annexation something positive. Right now Westy's get to hide away in their cute little suburb and have no idea that the only reason West Hartford is so successful is because of Hartford. Forget better response times, how about better public schools, better diversity, more $$$ for after school programs, etc.

I have no idea why you keep harping on the whole density thing. You need to get it through your head that the density will be exactly the same as it is today if annexation occured. The only difference will be where the boundries are drawn. Furthermore, you're bugging out about something that really wouldn't change that much. West Hartford has 65,000 people in about 20 sq. miles and East Hartford around 50,000 in 20 sq. miles. Adding them to Hartford wouldn't all of a sudden turn it into some sprawling suburban hellhole. You're the one involved in the pissing contest, not us.

[runawayjim]

One advantage of being 100 miles from Boston and NYC is you can choose to be a Bruins fan or a Rangers fan......a Red Sox fan or Yankees fan etc.

I see the downside (maybe I should say challenge) of being in between NYC and Boston is the limited sphere of influence.

If Stamford's population doubled, would its sphere of influence increase drastically?

that's exactly it. because you have 2 very large cities within a couple hours in either direction, they over-shadow the smaller cities of hartford, new haven, bridgeport, and providence. people outside the region don't really know much about these smaller cities. sure, there's things that they've heard about them (lots of people seem to know providence and waterfire, and new haven with yale, and maybe even hartford and insurance, although i don't think it's still the insurance capital of the world anymore). when they think the northeast, they think NYC, boston, philly (although philly's farther). there's the sheer size and influence of new york which stretches towards boston to a degree, and the history of boston as one of the original cities during hte birth of the country. i don't think sucking up 2 cities is gonna make hartford anymore well known to people outside the region.

if you want to make hartford more attractive to people in the region, fix hartford's current problems for real, not by making them seem less problematic by just adding more people and space.

[HartfordTycoon]

Hartford is attractive and really doesn't have these serious issues everyone seems to think it does. We have some violent crime just like every other sizable city in the US. We also have an enviable business climate, diverse population, and vibrant suburbs. People need more living options and entertainment options in the city and throughout the region and we are building those things. Once that stuff takes root, and the Whale comes back, these discussions will no longer happen and Hartford will once again be "national" in the eyes of many people.