Election 2006

[rocky top buzz]

The longest ballot in Tennessee HISTORY! Voting machines that require explanation. Why can't we go back to paper ballots?

I went to vote at 7:15 AM and one voting machine was already broken, so I waited in line behind only 5 people and it took 30 minutes! I will say that I got done with my voting pretty quick because 1- I had used the machines before in early voting, and 2- I did the research and knew who I was going to vote for in the 5 or so elections that had opposition.

As for politics.... I voted republican. That doesn't mean I won't for Phil Bredesen in November (although 2 term govenors scare me), but I definitely will not be voting for either John Ford Jr or Bart Gordon. It's not just that I don't share their political beliefs, but these are two residents of Washington DC who supposedly "represent" Tennessee? Ford was practically raised in DC, and Bart Gordon has been there for almost 25 years!!!! How can either of these guys think they understand me as a Tennessean? Although, I guess you could say most politicians are that way. I really feel like Bill Frist has always wanted the best for Tennessee, and I think he could have done much more for us without the resposibility of leading the seante.

Just my political opinion. Nothing in the rules against it, right???

[rocky top buzz]

A little more on Ford from Wikipedia that proves he's not a Tennessean:

He graduated from St. Albans School for Boys in Washington, D.C. and received a B.A. from the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia in 1992 and a J.D. from the University of Michigan Law School in 1996. He sat for and failed to pass the Tennessee Bar Exam in 1998, but he has publicly acknowledged that he will try again.

Is it just me, or do you notice anything missing from that paragraph? oh... maybe... TENNESSEE??????

[nashscan]

Ford uses the gas price pawn to lure the uneducated masses to vote for him. Maybe if we get the younger generation to the senate, gas will dive back under $2 gallon. Baaah Baaah

[samsonh]

At least Ford seems to think rationally. I have never voted for a Democrat but plan on voting for Ford. One thing that bothers me about Repubs at this moment is blaming all of society's problems on things like gay marriage, internet gambling, and illegal immigrants.

Illegal immigrant build our homes, roads and cut our grass. They do work that Americans no longer do. Mass deportations would kill this country. Gay marriage should be legal. Internet gamblinng should be legal. Down with Republicans, up with freedom.

[rocky top buzz]

You think Ford thinks rationally because he thinks like you; and that's fine. I think a quick look at his family tree and his utter lack of experience shows otherwise, but that's my opinion.

You say illegal immigrants do the jobs American's won't do? I'll build your homes, roads, and cut your grass if you'll pay me what it costs to live comfortably in America. Illegal imigrants live 20 people to a small house and send all their money, tax free, back to Mexico. These are not Americans, nor do they care about America. If they could earn the same wage in Mexico, they would be there.

[samsonh]

Wow rocky top. Your post reeks of racism. Do you know any illegals? I do. They are good people, just like you and I. They work hard and do not have many of the benefits we have. Some of the illegals I have know have worked 80+ hours a week at near minimum wage jobs. Many of them do send money back to their families, it is a noble and honorable thing they are doing. They spend their entire lives separated from their families in order to provide a better life for their children. You act as if livinng 20 to a house is glorious. Do you feel like they enjoy that? Being an American is a state of mind. Working hard, caring for ones self and ones family, these all seem like "American" ideals. Please open your eyes to this. Stop drinking the kool aid that these illegals are raising your healthcare costs and causing all sorts of societal ills. They are not.

Also fwiw I agree with very few of Ford's views. I am placing my vote for him more to show my dislike for the current Republican leadership. I am anti-death penalty, anti-SS and welfare, I wish there were no minimum wage. I couldn't be further from a Democrat. I feel like I can see a leader though. And Ford seems like a man with potential, who won't tote the party linne if he thinks it is wrong, something I do not feel about Corker.

You say you'd do my job if I paid a wage you could live on. Do you support a living wage? You talk as if you do.

[fieldmarshaldj]

^Maybe some perspective needs to be stated here. Illegals are just that, illegal. Meaning, they have no business in this country. They are criminals breaking the law, and insult the good name of every citizen of this country who came here to this country legally and followed the rules. You wouldn't tolerate someone breaking into your home and taking up residence, would you ? When you've got upwards of 10,000,000+ of them, we call that a full-scale invasion. I don't particularly care what their race is, it still is the same if they're White, Black, Brown, Yellow, or Green & Purple Polka-Dot. And, btw, I favor the highest criminal penalties for the EMPLOYERS. Maybe when they start drawing some serious prison sentences for encouraging this slave labor, a large number of these folks will deport themselves.

[rocky top buzz]

Samsonh, I'm no racist. I am opposed to illegal immigration regardless of where it comes from. Mexico just happens to be the worst because 1- Their government encourages them to come here illegally, and 2- We share a border with them. I find it strange we have this problem with Mexico and not Canada. I'd do anything to get out of a country where a 'hot' day is when it's 32 degrees!

Do you know what Mexico does to illegal immigrants? They go to jail and stay there until there time is served for breaking the law. Mexico has little problem with illegal immigration because of this.

And finally, no I don't support a government mandated living wage. If I won't build your roads for less than $20 an hour, then you'll have to pay me $20 an hour. That either means other salaries will have to go up (a brain surgeon what do his job if he only makes twice as much as a road worker), or costs will come down and cause salaries to stay low. What would really happen is that the people who build the roads and want to earn more money will have to educate themselves to move up to a better job. That's how this economy is supposed to work, but I don't see many illegals wanting to go to college. They want to earn money and send it home. I'm not saying all of the illegal immgrants are bad people (although they are crimnals by definition), but the fact is that they want to earn money as quickly and eeasily as possible and not have the responsibilities of an American citizen.

[samsonh]

I don't believe you are a racist

Canada is a major indusrialized nation. They have a well diversified economy and a high quality of life. Mexico is just now coming into its own with industry. Mexico still struggles with corruption, especially at the local levels of government. Over the longterm NAFTA will help raise the quality of life in Mexico as more jobs go there and trade restrictions are reduced.

When I see construction sites near my house, I see Mexicans. When I worked at Kroger ages ago, I bagged groceries with illegals. Do you think these workers do not want to further their education? It is nearly impossible for them. Many Mexicans spend free nights at English classes, attempting to learn a language they need to succeed, attempting to learn a very different and more difficult language than Spanish. They want to see their children succeed and go to college as any of us do. I know that if Mexico was where I could make the money I needed to help my family, and the US had no opportunities for me, I would take the same chance they are.

Mexico has little problem with illegal immigration because there is nothing for people there, not because they jail people, and you know that.

If costs go up, prices go up. Costs do not magically come down. If costs do come down it is because you have lowered demand, not a good thing. And everything you buy will become more expensive. The dramatic inflation would lead to a lower quality of life, almost immediatly for nearly all Americans, basic econ. That would mean a number of things, including fewer people being able to afford college now that all the Mexicans are gone.

I share one trait with the Mexicans that you look down upon, the want of fast money. Everyone wants it, thats why we have the ridiculous state run lottery. As an American citizen the only responsibility I have is to pay taxes, and many illegals do this. They all pay sales tax. Americans have zero responsibilities aside from taxes, and thats what makes this country great. If they do not want to feel proud of America, so what. Their feelings do not bother or affect me nor should they bother or affect you.

But I will say I completely respect your opinion on this. I used to feel the very same way.

[rocky top buzz]

I don't look down on Mexicans because they want fast money (in fact, if you'll see, I don't look down on Mexican's, I look down on crimanal activity).

As for the way Mexicans treat their illegals, you are right, they usually aren't thrown in Jail. That would be too expensive. No, typically, illegal immigrants crossing into Mexico from South America are robbed, beaten, stabbed, raped, or if they are lucky, shot (from The Arizona Star, April 2006).

A quick lesson on economics. If costs contimue to rise, wages have to rise, or the costs will not be able to sustain the higher levels. If people would pay $30 for a slice of cheese, it would be sold at $30. Many people say gasoline is too expensive, but the fact is our spending trends don't reflect the price as too high. There are a couple of things that will scew this. Credit is one (Housing wouldn't be so expensive today without the creation of the 30 year mortgage. As prices rise on housing, we get interest-only loans for the general public, and even 40 year mortgages. Another factor in all this is illegal immigration. These are people who do not pay taxes (income taxes, senor), and will work for the wage required to support a mexican lifestyle, not an American lifestyle. If illegal immigrants wouldn't build houses for $5 an hour, housing would be much more expensive, and therefore wages across the board would have to be higher. Don't believe this? Compare housing proces and salaries from the 70's, 80's, and even 90's. You'll see that gomes were less expensive and wages were... LOWER!

[samsonh]

Your assumptions about the market are incorrect. If costs rise wages do not have to rise in line with them. Money is not created out of thin air (unless of course the government needs it )

If housing were more expensive guess what, many many many more people wouldn't own homes. What a dream society without Mexicans. Your argument for an increase in costs leading to an increase in salaries is THE EXACT SAME as the one democrats use for raising the minimum wage. And I know you aren't for an increase in the minimum wage.

Housing is more expensive because of speculation and because in many cases housing is a person's only asset. This country has become one that doesn't save and invest, but spends every last cent.

[rocky top buzz]

If costs rise and wages do not rise, there will be a surplus of the higher costing material. That's why we have a glut of homes on the housing market today. If you look around, you'll also see that housing starts aren't as fast as in recent years. That's because wages have not kept up with costs.

All these factors cause wages to rise and fall naturally, not artificially like what the liberals (and unfortunately some conervaties) propose.

I absolutely agree that too many in this country view their house as their retirement plan. While a house can be a good part of your overall investment portfolio, it certainly shouldn't be the primary asset. Your house is only worth as much as someone's willing to pay for it, and unlike stocks and bonds, may require extrememly expensive repairs (I've never heard of someone's roof caving in on their mutual fund!)

[Kheldane]

^Maybe some perspective needs to be stated here. Illegals are just that, illegal. Meaning, they have no business in this country. They are criminals breaking the law, and insult the good name of every citizen of this country who came here to this country legally and followed the rules. You wouldn't tolerate someone breaking into your home and taking up residence, would you ? When you've got upwards of 10,000,000+ of them, we call that a full-scale invasion. I don't particularly care what their race is, it still is the same if they're White, Black, Brown, Yellow, or Green & Purple Polka-Dot. And, btw, I favor the highest criminal penalties for the EMPLOYERS. Maybe when they start drawing some serious prison sentences for encouraging this slave labor, a large number of these folks will deport themselves.

I've got a response to this post, but I'm putting it here:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.ph...st&p=522563

...since this thread is "not too political". Because what I have to say is *very* political....

[Plasticman]

At least Ford seems to think rationally. I have never voted for a Democrat but plan on voting for Ford. One thing that bothers me about Repubs at this moment is blaming all of society's problems on things like gay marriage, internet gambling, and illegal immigrants.

Illegal immigrant build our homes, roads and cut our grass. They do work that Americans no longer do. Mass deportations would kill this country. Gay marriage should be legal. Internet gamblinng should be legal. Down with Republicans, up with freedom.

Sounds more like down with republicans, up with anarchy.

And listen to what you just said...."Illegal immigrant build our homes, roads, and cut our grass". Basically you are rationalizing the presense of foreign law breakers into our society because they can perform all the slave labor dirt cheap. Uh......ok......

[Hankster]

For the life of me, I can't understand how anyone in America can support the existence of ILLEGAL immigration in any way shape or form. I for one, am a very strong supporter of LEGAL immigration. The country is great because of immigrants. But, until recently, nearly all the immigrant who came to this country came legally. These people WANTED to be in this country, and they desired above all else to be Americans. They brought skills, hard work ethics and great ambition with them. They never intended to return back to where they came. They were willing to work for less, just like the ILLEGALS we are talking about.

Today, our country is at great risk. Because we do not enforce our laws and allow our border to be so porous, dangerous elements can come in. Terrorists can sneak accoss, and there is evidence that Mexicans are actually helping terrorists (for a fee) to do just that. One out 12 illegal entering this country is an ex-convict. With legal immigration we can control who comes in, and guarantee that those who are allowed to come here, really want to be here, and are good citizens.

How on earth can people support ILLEGAL immigration? If we need more cheap labor resources here, simply increase the number of legal immigrant we allow, of develop a guest worker program such as European countries have. The point is, we don't have to have illegals come here to supply the labor our businesses need.

We must STOP the illegal invasion of our country NOW! We must control who comes here while providing the needed numbers access to our country. Our national security depends on this

[Plasticman]

For the life of me, I can't understand how anyone in America can support the existence of ILLEGAL immigration in any way shape or form. I for one, am a very strong supporter of LEGAL immigration. The country is great because of immigrants. But, until recently, nearly all the immigrant who came to this country came legally. These people WANTED to be in this country, and they desired above all else to be Americans. They brought skills, hard work ethics and great ambition with them. They never intended to return back to where they came. They were willing to work for less, just like the ILLEGALS we are talking about.

Today, our country is at great risk. Because we do not enforce our laws and allow our border to be so porous, dangerous elements can come in. Terrorists can sneak accoss, and there is evidence that Mexicans are actually helping terrorists (for a fee) to do just that. One out 12 illegal entering this country is an ex-convict. With legal immigration we can control who comes in, and guarantee that those who are allowed to come here, really want to be here, and are good citizens.

How on earth can people support ILLEGAL immigration? If we need more cheap labor resources here, simply increase the number of legal immigrant we allow, of develop a guest worker program such as European countries have. The point is, we don't have to have illegals come here to supply the labor our businesses need.

We must STOP the illegal invasion of our country NOW! We must control who comes here while providing the needed numbers access to our country. Our national security depends on this

But if we stop them, Joe the redneck won't be able to have his sod spread for 50 cents an hour and he may actually have to get off his overfed behind and do it himself. (God forbid).

[samsonh]

lol at you guys.

I don't care for Reuplicans or Democrats Plasticman. I care for a politician who fights for individual rights and freedoms. Sadly I do not see many doing this today. I am a Republican in the true sense of the word. A real Repbulican cannot possible be true to what he believes in and support the fiscal policies of this administration. The budget deficit will not seem to affect you much now, but look back at it 15 or 25 years from now when you paying interest to foreign bond holders. It isn't just me who feels like this, talk to Mr. Buffett as well.

Fwiw, I HIGHLY doubt that 1 in 12 coming across the border is a felon. Please show me unbiased evidence showing that Mexicans are helping terrorists cross the border. If this were true I am certain it would be splashed across the headlines. You lose credibility when you make those statements. I also believe legal immigration should be increased. I thought I made a post saying as such somewhere, may have been another thread. This country has a lot to offer for those who are willing to work hard. America is great because anyone anywhere can be the next Bill Gates if he wants. Also how do we guarantee someone will be a "good" citizen. What makes a "good" citizen. Why in the world would I ever care if someone is a "good" citizen. This "guaranteeing" good citizens is laughable hankster. I really like your posts and wouldn't have thought you would ever say something like this.

I do not live my life in fear of terrorism. I supported the Iraq war initially, because I believed it was right. I believed we needed to disarm Iraq. Turns out it was all wrong. I do not believe Bush lied, I think he was mistaken and given incorrect intel. Now I feel horrible knowing that the poorest of our citizens are dying half way across the world to fight for a democracy that Muslims do not seem to want. It tears at my conscience to know that I supported the war that has caused 2500+ Americans to die.

To call me Joe the redneck is very ignorant. You have a right to your opinion and I have a right to mine. That is what makes this country great. I believe in the right of all people to be free first and foremost. That is my guiding principle if you cannot tell. And yes I do think with my wallet in mind. If you do otherwise I feel sorry for you.

To say we do not need illegals to supply our labor is laughable. Do you guys see the world as it is? Who is working at our lumber mills? Who is working at our construction sites? Who is picking your fruit at the orchards? If you rid our society of them you cannot imagine how huge the price increases would be. Maybe Rockytop will come and explain to us why this occurence would violate the rules of economics and would not result in a lower quality of life for all

Plasticman you may not want to believe that your life is much better because of the presence of illegals but you are wrong. I truly enjoy these debates. It is said you cannot make a man change his mind on politics. But I am trying No hard feelings to anyone in this post btw.

[rocky top buzz]

You asked so here we go!

Let's take the fruit pickers (or maybe since this is Nashville, banjo pickers???). Anyway, if we finally require all employees to prove a legal status to work in this country, then you coudn't pay less than $5,15 an hour for someone to pick your fruit.

So lets say no American would do it for less than $7, an assumed 100% increase in the cost of labor. That means a bag of apples will go from $2 to $4. Consumers will then have to decide, 'do I really need a bag of apples? Maybe I'll buy grapes instead because even though their labor costs have doubled, maybe grapes will go farther?'

Well, now the apple companies can't sell their apples for $4 a bag, so they have to cut costs somewhere. So what do they do? they fire half the pickers. This means their will be a lower supply to justify the lower demand. Apples are still $4 a bag, and they are profitable because of fewer, yet higher paid employees.

Illegal immigration basically causes us to produce more apples at a lower costs,. thus tricking the market into thinking inflation is lower. This causes wages to be stagnant. You can't just yank all illegal immigrants out of the economy tomorrow, because that would cripple this nation. But you can begin the process of replacing illegal aliens with documented legal employees, and inflation will return to a normal pace of 3%

(and for those of you who think inflation is at 3%, it's nowhere close to that if you remove fuel costs. yet again, we are bypassing capitalism for politics).

[samsonh]

Wow. Just wow. I believe that this will be easy for me.

I have no idea what your stance on the minimum wage(or living wage for that matter) is. I can assume you are against it because you are Republican. This is the exact same arguement used inf avor of a higher minimum wage. Please tell me how one is different from the other.

Initially people cannot as many apples- this is not a good thing, it is a lower quality of life. You have limited the choices consumers can make. And in this case it isn't just apples that will be more expensive, it is every fruit. Consumers can afford far less total fruit than they could before(not a good thing for consumers or producers) Not only can we afford fewer fruits, but we have higher unemployment now. And those unemployed can afford no fruits unless we give them government help.

Illegal immigration tricks the market??? Very little tricks the market and this certainly does not. I cannot tell whether you think inflation is a good thing? So tell me do you think currently inflation is higher than 3% or lower? I honestly cannot tell from your post.

Your post shows how much lower the quality of life would be without illegals even though that wasn't your purpose.

[rocky top buzz]

The difference between capitalism and minimum wage is that governments artificially set minimum wages; capitalism will tell what the market will bare on the high end and low end

Illegal aliens trick the market because they circumvent it. If I went to an apple farm and said I was willing to pick apples for $2 an hour, they couldn't hire me because the government says I have to charge at least $5.15 an hour. Of course, the other side of that coin is that an employer will profit more from an illegal employee, thus leaving me in the un-employmen line. That's how illegal immigration tricks the market.

[samsonh]

Are you simply choosing to avoid the meat of the post?

[Hankster]

But if we stop them, Joe the redneck won't be able to have his sod spread for 50 cents an hour and he may actually have to get off his overfed behind and do it himself. (God forbid).

Absolutely NOT true. If we have a guest worker program and increase the legal immigration quotas, we can guarantee that there is enpugh cheap labor available for Joe the Redneck to have his sod spread cheap. However, I ask everyone, do we really want this? Having all this cheap labor is artificially lowering wages throughout the country. This is the single most important factor in the increasing disparity in incomes between the rich and poor. The point is, if we enforce our laws, we can have it either way, without allowing a flood of illegals coming here, some of which are very undesirable, and some of which constitute a grave sercuity risk to us all.

[Hankster]

lol at you guys.

Fwiw, I HIGHLY doubt that 1 in 12 coming across the border is a felon. Please show me unbiased evidence showing that Mexicans are helping terrorists cross the border. If this were true I am certain it would be splashed across the headlines. You lose credibility when you make those statements. I also believe legal immigration should be increased. I thought I made a post saying as such somewhere, may have been another thread. This country has a lot to offer for those who are willing to work hard. America is great because anyone anywhere can be the next Bill Gates if he wants. Also how do we guarantee someone will be a "good" citizen. What makes a "good" citizen. Why in the world would I ever care if someone is a "good" citizen. This "guaranteeing" good citizens is laughable hankster. I really like your posts and wouldn't have thought you would ever say something like this.

I do not live my life in fear of terrorism. I supported the Iraq war initially, because I believed it was right. I believed we needed to disarm Iraq. Turns out it was all wrong. I do not believe Bush lied, I think he was mistaken and given incorrect intel. Now I feel horrible knowing that the poorest of our citizens are dying half way across the world to fight for a democracy that Muslims do not seem to want. It tears at my conscience to know that I supported the war that has caused 2500+ Americans to die.

Since you don't seem to think illegals are a problem with crime in America, try these quotes for size:

Police commanders may not want to discuss, much less respond to, the illegal-alien crisis, but its magnitude for law enforcement is startling. Some examples from an article written in "The City Journal" in New York City:

[samsonh]

I will give you a point for bringing up those stats. LA obviously has a problem, as do many major cities. I did not realize it was this bad there however. Fwiw I agree a guest worker program would be great. But Bush let that proposal die. I think it had great potential. Could we prevent guest workers from staying after their working period has ended? Many illegals now come across with visas(although many are forged) and then stay. What blows my mind is that we allowed the 9/11 hijackers to come legally. I realize we would have a better record of who is here with a guest worker program, but would we ever have the resources to find all the people who do not leave and deport them. Will this program even stop illegal immigration? Many people advocate building a physical wall on the border, I am not sure that this is even feasible. How do you feel about this proposal?

About terrorism... I do not say that I do not take them seriously. 9/11 was horrible. But we cannot live our life in fear and suspicion of every Muslim or person of Arab descent. My problem with the Patriot Act is that its use is such a slippery slope. It scares me that we are using wiretaps without going thru the channels we used to. When you have no way to hold your authorities accountable, you are in trouble. Many Muslims hate us for our support of Israel. I support Israel. But they grow up being indoctrinated to hate us and Israel. I have no idea how you solve this. But I don't think what we are doing in Iraq is helping. The situation there is marginally better(I think?) than it was 3 years ago. My fear is a civil war in the next 3 years. Who's side can we take then? It is a tough situation with no easy or clean answer.

[Hankster]

I will give you a point for bringing up those stats. LA obviously has a problem, as do many major cities. I did not realize it was this bad there however. Fwiw I agree a guest worker program would be great. But Bush let that proposal die. I think it had great potential. Could we prevent guest workers from staying after their working period has ended? Many illegals now come across with visas(although many are forged) and then stay. What blows my mind is that we allowed the 9/11 hijackers to come legally. I realize we would have a better record of who is here with a guest worker program, but would we ever have the resources to find all the people who do not leave and deport them. Will this program even stop illegal immigration? Many people advocate building a physical wall on the border, I am not sure that this is even feasible. How do you feel about this proposal?

About terrorism... I do not say that I do not take them seriously. 9/11 was horrible. But we cannot live our life in fear and suspicion of every Muslim or person of Arab descent. My problem with the Patriot Act is that its use is such a slippery slope. It scares me that we are using wiretaps without going thru the channels we used to. When you have no way to hold your authorities accountable, you are in trouble. Many Muslims hate us for our support of Israel. I support Israel. But they grow up being indoctrinated to hate us and Israel. I have no idea how you solve this. But I don't think what we are doing in Iraq is helping. The situation there is marginally better(I think?) than it was 3 years ago. My fear is a civil war in the next 3 years. Who's side can we take then? It is a tough situation with no easy or clean answer.