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Libertarian Issues


Kheldane

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Also you realize that Marxism is the complete exact opposite of what libertarians and AC'ers believe. So it kind of looks silly to gorup them together and say the 20th century was a failure to them. Russia failed with Marxism, as any libertarian would have told you it would have. If anything the USSR serves as a testament to why what libertarians believe is correct.

Let us remember what Marx believed the cycle was:

capitalism to socialism to communism

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They don't have to give up their heritage as neither European or African's have given up their heritage to become an American. But we can all communicate and work together for the better good of America; Mexicans wave their flag and speak spanish!

And another thing, when these illegal immigrants do become citizens through amnesty, most will be living below the poverty level. You know what that means? It means WELFARE FOR 20 MILLION MORE PEOPLE! That's about as anti-libertarian as it comes, right?

EDIT: I think I mis-read your statement, so I tweaked my response.

Flags and the language - maybe that rubs you the wrong way - but the economic impact on you is zero! If you have to interact with spanish speakers for business purposes, I trust you will learn enough of the language to communicate the basics. That's not too much to ask: just about every other large country around the world is multi-lingual. You'd be much happier in life (and more american) if you would just worry about your own business and find the most profitable way to interact peacefully with your fellow american (I consider people who live & work her & want to be american to be american). Don't worry about their nationality or language or wherever you think their loyalties lie. The only "green card" you need concern yourself with is the green dollar as it either passes into or out of your hand. Now, to that end, let's address your second point:

You are 100% correct, if all these new poor people get citizenship it will put enormous burdens on the welfare system in this country. I am actually in favor of this (!), and let me tell you why: Because I think it just might be enough to finally break the welfare system - and that is my ultimate goal. The end of welfare by whatever means possible. Americans seem not to care about welfare as it currently is, but maybe a monsterous new load will wake them up and cause them to reject socialism once and for all. I already think socialism is headed for trouble with the retiring baby-boomer generation, but this could really screw the whole system up. So I can't wait to hear the moans and lamentations of confused americans - who can't understand why all the money they make goes to someone else. I would laugh for days!!

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Civil government, church government, and family government all have their spheres of authority and purpose. Please correct me if I have misstated your take on the issue.

Sounds good to me! No hard feelings over my rigorous questioning, I hope? Now let's get out there and soundly beat those socialists into rhetorical submission. :lol:

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...and will lose the country we have now. Your encouragement of anarchy is highly disturbing.

The issues of legal immigration and "illegal" immigration are inseparable. You can't talk about one without talking about the other. Maybe immigration will cause you to "loose" the country you have now, but my america is constantly changing, adapting, growing, becoming more competitive, more populous, more advanced. If we close the borders, we will loose that america and become a tired, aging, gradually declining socialist fortress like Japan, Germany, Italy...

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I am quite interested in a mature discussion. I see no ill effects of illegal immigration in my life. You should know that I am the least political correct person I know. That post was not meant to trick you into anything. The fact that it made you think that speaks volumes though.

Fieldmarshall, I really enjoy your posts on other subjects, and am actually quite surprised you have taken this stance on this issue. I believe this country should allow far more legal immigrants. I believe that illegal immigration will never stop if employers continue hiring illegals. I believe employers will continue hiring them because they typically work hard and well, something that many Americans seem to not do anymore. Employers believe illegals are good for their bottom line, creating more profits, capital which can be invested further. I don't care one way or another how you feel about illegals, I won't deny that many of them could care less about this country. I want them here because it is good for my wallet, thats the only reason. Now tell me why I shouldn't want them here....

Illegal immigration hasn't caused this nation massive harm, it has actually given the nation a shot in the economic arm. Its also allowed millions of desperate people a life with a future of hope.

No one in this message board has mentioned that there are tons of people who want to be here, who have filed to be here legally, who keep getting rejected. They are illegal because our system makes them illegal. Its not the other way around. Many hispanic immigrants are people who take English courses, know the system, and could pass an American history test better than many American citizens by birthright.

No one talks about the illegals who apply and apply and get rejected. They want to be here.

Hispanics are also far from just Mexican. You might be surprised to find out there are more Guatemalans or El Salvadorans than Mexicans in many Nashville neighborhoods.

You could build all the walls around Mexico you want, its not going to stop them from coming to a land with hope. And a wall around Mexico certainly won't keep the Asians from flying over or the Indians from flying over.

But I'm not one who wants to keep everyone out.

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RE: Telemundo Thread

@ Heckles

If you find that your job keeps getting outsourced to India or whatever, and you are also unwilling to move to india or whatever, then you should not only think about changing careers, you should actually change careers. No amount of government interference could save you from having your job outsourced. It the government made a law saying outsourcing was illegal, the company you work for would just close down (similar to us auto-manufacturing operations that continue to close down) and re-open a new operation in India. Or worse, the US company would flounder around for a few years and then succumb to low-cost competitors from overseas. The only way to maybe prevent that would be to outlaw imports of the products that are competing with US companies, but then, similar to what you saw with soviet russia, US industry would become inefficient & stagnate over the years, and at some point down the road, when americans became fed-up with inferior products the trade doors would swing open again. And then a crap-load of US companies would go out of business in the face of advanced competition that has been perfecting their products on the world stage during the US isolationist period.

There is no escaping the harsh reality of the market. No matter how hard you try to sell it as "reasonabl expectations from government" just know that the government is ultimately powerless to protect you from the market. The market is harsh because consumers are harsh. Consumers are the one's demanding better products at lower prices. US consumers are the ones who caused your jobs to be outsourced, because they saw no reason to continue paying higher prices for the product you were providing if the one from india was just as good.

If you don't want to change industries then I strongly urge you to move to India - I hear that country is booming. Although it would probably be a big adjustment at first, you would have the benefit of getting in during the early years and you may become quite wealthy as the country grows during the next decades.

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RE: Telemundo Thread

@ Heckles

If you find that your job keeps getting outsourced to India or whatever, and you are also unwilling to move to india or whatever, ...

If you don't want to change industries then I strongly urge you to move to India - I hear that country is booming. Although it would probably be a big adjustment at first, you would have the benefit of getting in during the early years and you may become quite wealthy as the country grows during the next decades.

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^I didn't know that about Indian law regarding immigration.

I feel like my beliefs are middle of the road regarding immigration. I'm very pro-immigration, but believe that illegal immigrants should be sent back to their original country if they don't have a work permit.

On the other hand, I think the process for applying for a green card and a work permit for temporary stays should be streamlined so that its easier to obtain. I don't think we should just allow everyone in, but there are personal friends I've known whose families have spent over 10 years with little to no results.

This issue is so complex and there are clearly more sides to the issue than just the standard illegal vs. legal debate.

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RE: Telemundo Thread

@ Heckles

If you find that your job keeps getting outsourced to India or whatever, and you are also unwilling to move to india or whatever, then you should not only think about changing careers, you should actually change careers. No amount of government interference could save you from having your job outsourced. It the government made a law saying outsourcing was illegal, the company you work for would just close down (similar to us auto-manufacturing operations that continue to close down) and re-open a new operation in India. Or worse, the US company would flounder around for a few years and then succumb to low-cost competitors from overseas. The only way to maybe prevent that would be to outlaw imports of the products that are competing with US companies, but then, similar to what you saw with soviet russia, US industry would become inefficient & stagnate over the years, and at some point down the road, when americans became fed-up with inferior products the trade doors would swing open again. And then a crap-load of US companies would go out of business in the face of advanced competition that has been perfecting their products on the world stage during the US isolationist period.

There is no escaping the harsh reality of the market. No matter how hard you try to sell it as "reasonabl expectations from government" just know that the government is ultimately powerless to protect you from the market. The market is harsh because consumers are harsh. Consumers are the one's demanding better products at lower prices. US consumers are the ones who caused your jobs to be outsourced, because they saw no reason to continue paying higher prices for the product you were providing if the one from india was just as good.

If you don't want to change industries then I strongly urge you to move to India - I hear that country is booming. Although it would probably be a big adjustment at first, you would have the benefit of getting in during the early years and you may become quite wealthy as the country grows during the next decades.

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I'm no expert on this topic, but I remember a few months ago 60 minutes had a special where they interviewed American's who had moved to India to work, typically as supervisors because they had so much experience in the US. That would sound like a job in India to me.

My opinion is that outsourcing is in the best interest of the US economy. If you want to go back to paying $3,000 for a base model PC, then bring the jobs back.

Also, remember that you don't have a job unless you own a company. Your boss has a job and he chooses to let you fill it. If you want your own job, start a company (note: I don't own my own business, but I'm grateful to have a boss who is in need of my services and appreciates me for it)

And in reference to other countries multi-national laws, remember, the US has an extremely low unemployment rate (currently around 4%; even when the economy was 'bad' a few years ago, unemployment never went above 7%). The stock market crash didn't cause the great depression; isolationism caused the great depression.

oh, final thought on illegal immigration, other countries are VERY strict on their immigration rules; we are probably the most lax. We should allow foreigners to work here,but only if we have documentation of their status.

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I can't believe you guys are seriously discussing moving to India for work. A matter of fact I'm just speechless.

While I hear of people going over there on projects, I've even had a friend who went over there temporarily to do some consulting work in addition to working with Indian consultants when my job was outsourced (and had a good experience on a personal level), the idea that you guys are discussing it in the context you are discussing it in... Man.

Speechless.

If this does not represent how extreme the far right has become in America, what does?

I don't even need to defend my positions any further. You guys are so far out on the ledge it goes without saying.

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Metro I disagree strongly about seeing a hit to the unemployment rate when the war effort winds down. The way our country's economy is affected by war has changed drastically. The industries that receive a boost employ relatively few people. I am curious as to why you think their will be a pretty big hit, especially since unemployment was not high before the war.

To say all the techinal jobs are disappearing is absurd. Have you looked for a job lately. In Nashville there a hundreds of companies looking for specially trained people, especially in the IT field. I remember this past spring seeing an article talking about HCA and Nissan having huge numbers of openings each in just that field. I remember talking to an executive last year about jobs and he said the toughest thing for his company was finding good workers. His company struggled to find people who worked hard and didn't try to cut corners and take advantage of the company.

IMO there is no excuse to not being successful financially in this country if that is one of your goals. Every person faces obstacles in their lives, I face many significant ones myself. But this country rewards hard work and determination and intelligence.

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Outsourcing is a good thing for everyone. It is good for you and I because we get cheaper goods. It is good for the new employees in foreign countries because they now make more money and have a higher standard of living. It is good for shareholders because they earn higher profits. And because the products are cheaper, we have more money to spend. And with that extra money we will usually buy more stuff and guess what, that person who was formerly unemployed will soon have a new job.

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Outsourcing is a good thing for everyone. It is good for you and I because we get cheaper goods. It is good for the new employees in foreign countries because they now make more money and have a higher standard of living. It is good for shareholders because they earn higher profits. And because the products are cheaper, we have more money to spend. And with that extra money we will usually buy more stuff and guess what, that person who was formerly unemployed will soon have a new job.
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Who said all the tech jobs have been outsourced? It's mainly just call center jobs that can be staffed by people with no tech experience (they have a script that tells them the answers).

I graduated from college in 2002 with a degree in IT, right in the middle of the supposed tech bust. I quickly got a job as the IT Director of a small nashville company. I had no experience but was willling to be flexible. Most other people who worked in the 90's were making so much $$$ that simply no longer existed, that they couldn't be flexible. Had they stayed with it, they'd be making more today than in 1999.

As far as unemployment, If you have exausted your unemployment benefits and still can't find work, I consider that to be a bum, not un-employed. We hear everyday that construction sites will pay americans $10-$20 to do the work that mexicans are doing; they just can't find americans. If you are capable of walking, you can get a job in this country. Pick up the classifieds! And as I said yesterday, if you feel you are over-qulified for menial jobs, start your own company.

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Who said all the tech jobs have been outsourced? It's mainly just call center jobs that can be staffed by people with no tech experience (they have a script that tells them the answers).

I graduated from college in 2002 with a degree in IT, right in the middle of the supposed tech bust. I quickly got a job as the IT Director of a small nashville company. I had no experience but was willling to be flexible. Most other people who worked in the 90's were making so much $$$ that simply no longer existed, that they couldn't be flexible. Had they stayed with it, they'd be making more today than in 1999.

As far as unemployment, If you have exausted your unemployment benefits and still can't find work, I consider that to be a bum, not un-employed. We hear everyday that construction sites will pay americans $10-$20 to do the work that mexicans are doing; they just can't find americans. If you are capable of walking, you can get a job in this country. Pick up the classifieds! And as I said yesterday, if you feel you are over-qulified for menial jobs, start your own company.

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I find it hilarious that you think the idea of moving to India for work is so outlandish. What kind of dreamworld are you living in? Not everyone can afford to live in the US or make a good living here, and those that can't should think about going elsewhere. The rest of the world thinks like this, and americans are not ordained by god to always have fun and well paying jobs in this country. This is a global economy, so start thinking global.
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In effect I support the system we have, because its been highly successful. We don't need to deviate from it in a radical fashion. And the framework of our current system WAS created in the New Deal era, and even most Republicans accept the system we have.

None of the things I advocate are socialism (as you define the term), communism, or command and control economics.

....

If you go back in time, before the 1930's this nation went through severe cycles of major recession followed by an unprecedented period of growth, then a major recession (recessions that would be considered depression by modern standards), then growth, etc.... It was unstable, workers were REALLY abused in the marketplace with horrible standards that weren't enforced anyway.

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