Heritage Square

[yoga]

^ Yes, maybe that's what I was getting at - it's mixed more over there. It's more about content than image there.

After thinking about this post and what I'd said in an earlier thread about appreciating differences between Raleigh & Durham instead of trying to make them the same, I felt like a hypocrite.

But in thinking it further through, I personally don't want Durham to be like Raleigh OR vice versa. I really like the grit side of Durham, the mixed side. Raleigh doesn't have that, except in small pockets, like near NCSU, or at Whole Foods on Wade Ave. It's almost like Durham feels west coast and Raleigh feels east coast. Raleigh is very monochromatic and separated.

To me, Glenwood Ave used to feel like Durham a bit, before Sunflowers relocated, and the "hip" spots were the Rockford and Hibernian. But now, it seems like people come to Glenwood to be SEEN. It feels to me like walking down the street in Beverly Hills at times. Like people are waiting to be discovered or something. I can't be the only person that senses that. There is a world of difference in the feel at The Federal (which I love, and the Times bar) and Glenwood Ave. What is that?

I guess maybe it boils down to what people regard as the perfect city. To me, it's mixed, and the differences are strength, not divisive. It's fine with me if the Glenwood crowd hangs on Glenwood - as long as there are places like the Times bar and Humble Pie for the less agenda driven crowd.

dmccall, I'm guessing your smiley face is an "apology accepted" symbol?

[dmccall]

Oh yes, it is. I think my note was meaner than I really felt. Sorry if it came across as a full-on attack. Personally, I don't really have any problem with Glenwood's people. I like the fact that there are enough places that people who want a high energy dance club and a lot of mousse in their hair have a place to go while people in ties who've been at a wedding rehearsal dinner also have places to go and not feel out of place. We've driven friends from out of town through Glenwood on a Saturday night and they are very impressed. To me the hot dog carts tell the story: that it is safe and people are there to have a good time and spend some money. I also like the fact that the whole thing evolved on its own. I really don't feel like Glenwood Ave is "manufactured". It isn't an Atlanta Underground kind of project nor is it something the City of Raleigh has had to spend millions upon millions renovating 3 and 4 times.

I think that what you are seeing is the takeover of Glenwood Ave over all other night spots in Raleigh. For so long we were fragmented. There was the Longbranch crowd, the 2001 crowd, the Hillsborough St. crowd, the Western Blvd crowd, and the Five Points crowd. Now they are all out together in one segment of the city.

The next phase is to revitalize Hillsborough St. and blend warehouse and Glenwood so the whole area is a big mecca.

[yoga]

I hear you. No worries, we'll toast one this evening.

Do you think the presence of the govt in Raleigh is what causes the difference in the grit factor? Is it the physical layout of streets? Zoning?

Maybe I'm just the weirdo that doesn't go to weddings and formal things, I totally don't know. I'd be happy in a place that had a laid back pooch or two.

[bullcity76]

Another barrier to development south of the freeway may come down. There is a dilapidated housing "Project" that the Housing Authority is selling to Campus Apartments out of PA (can't find article). This has been a major hurdle to significant investment in the area.

[DanRNC]

Still more land being bought up from the city. Will be interesting to see what Durham develops into in the next 5-10 years.

Story

[bullcity76]

Still more land being bought up from the city. Will be interesting to see what Durham develops into in the next 5-10 years.

Story

I agree completely. It will take a lot to get all of these projects off the ground, but if successful they will be huge catalysts for Downtown and its neighborhoods. Its amazing that such urban development-minded people aren't more excited about these developments. These are large potential investments:

Heritage Square - $100M +

Golden Belt - $125M

Fayette Place - ?M

Rolling Hills - ?M

ATC Phase III - $75-100M

You are talking about more than $400M in investment around the Central Business District that can account for hundreds of millions of more investment.

[Jones_]

Do you think the presence of the govt in Raleigh is what causes the difference in the grit factor? Is it the physical layout of streets? Zoning?

I am a little late to this thread but wanted to add a bit to the two previous thoughts......I don't know how many people are aware of the term 'Glenwoodsouther".....its meaning is obvious to most people and tends to symbolize the different slices of the pie that, for better or for worse, make up a complete city. The "Glenwoodsouther" is the person who never ventured downtown until it became widely known as a safe active place to go. They rarely go to art showings, do not care about the architecture of the buildings they drink in, prefer taking a White Horse to a regular cab or walking, and would prefer to live in the Paramount over the Brooklyn Neighborhood. People who use the term "Glenwoodsouther"...well, don't find many things interesting about Glenwood South anymore. At one time Crooked Beat Records, Rockford and Havana Deluxe made Glenwood an outpost far from the monotony of North Raleigh. On the coatails of the creative classes the Glenwoodsouthers have arrived. I walk both sides of this fence and recognize the need for a central, easy to find and navigate nightspot although I rarely want to hang out there myself.

Durham's history is so different from Raleigh and its ensuing urban form that it likely will not resemble Raleigh in our lifetimes. The atmosphere is industrial (if now only industrial shells), the streets are narrow, and the population is diverse and mixed (race, class etc.) Durham much more closely resembles a city up north than Raleigh does.

Anyway, have a good weekend folks.

[raleightransplant]

I am a little late to this thread but wanted to add a bit to the two previous thoughts......I don't know how many people are aware of the term 'Glenwoodsouther".....its meaning is obvious to most people and tends to symbolize the different slices of the pie that, for better or for worse, make up a complete city. The "Glenwoodsouther" is the person who never ventured downtown until it became widely known as a safe active place to go. They rarely go to art showings, do not care about the architecture of the buildings they drink in, prefer taking a White Horse to a regular cab or walking, and would prefer to live in the Paramount over the Brooklyn Neighborhood. People who use the term "Glenwoodsouther"...well, don't find many things interesting about Glenwood South anymore. At one time Crooked Beat Records, Rockford and Havana Deluxe made Glenwood an outpost far from the monotony of North Raleigh. On the coatails of the creative classes the Glenwoodsouthers have arrived. I walk both sides of this fence and recognize the need for a central, easy to find and navigate nightspot although I rarely want to hang out there myself.

Durham's history is so different from Raleigh and its ensuing urban form that it likely will not resemble Raleigh in our lifetimes. The atmosphere is industrial (if now only industrial shells), the streets are narrow, and the population is diverse and mixed (race, class etc.) Durham much more closely resembles a city up north than Raleigh does.

Anyway, have a good weekend folks.

I'm a bit late as well, but I agree with this assessment and what yoga was saying. Glenwood South is a true urban success story, but it does have a bit of a trendy thing going--which is bad or good depending on where you're coming from. I've also always felt that Durham has the role almost of an older Northeastern city. It has a certain grit and edge that is shaped by it's landscape, but also the creative types that live there. Durham has trendy places too, but I think the city is defined as a liveable "neighborhoodish" kind of city. Federal, James Joyce, Fowler's bring this to mind. Raleigh, I believe, will end up in a great position--but in quite a different way. Raleigh seems to embrace more of the Western imperative--destroy and rebuild (Raleigh may look similar to Minneapolis in the future). They are rehabilitating old buildings--but Raleigh is going to ultimately be the "modern" city of the future for this region. It will also take over as the true dominant city over the next 10-20 years I believe. Durham is happy to take the bones it has, and to redevelop it. Both work quite well...frankly DT Raleigh needs some sprucing up, and it looks like we're going to get plenty of that in the coming years (it's well underway actually).

Happy Friday all!

[yoga]

Well put, Jones133 and raleightransplant - that's what I was trying to say. I didn't mean to come across as bashing the Glenwoodsouther's; it's true they play a vital role in the economy puzzle, even if they're not necessarily my crowd. It takes all kinds, and all that.

On the coatails of the creative classes the Glenwoodsouthers have arrived.

That, in a nutshell, is the driving piece of the genuine community side of cities. It's what makes people want to put down roots and stick around. And it's also the core of what the upcoming creative conference here is all about. How can we keep the creative classes here?

[bullcity76]

I'm a bit late as well, but I agree with this assessment and what yoga was saying. Glenwood South is a true urban success story, but it does have a bit of a trendy thing going--which is bad or good depending on where you're coming from. I've also always felt that Durham has the role almost of an older Northeastern city. It has a certain grit and edge that is shaped by it's landscape, but also the creative types that live there. Durham has trendy places too, but I think the city is defined as a liveable "neighborhoodish" kind of city. Federal, James Joyce, Fowler's bring this to mind. Raleigh, I believe, will end up in a great position--but in quite a different way. Raleigh seems to embrace more of the Western imperative--destroy and rebuild (Raleigh may look similar to Minneapolis in the future). They are rehabilitating old buildings--but Raleigh is going to ultimately be the "modern" city of the future for this region. It will also take over as the true dominant city over the next 10-20 years I believe. Durham is happy to take the bones it has, and to redevelop it. Both work quite well...frankly DT Raleigh needs some sprucing up, and it looks like we're going to get plenty of that in the coming years (it's well underway actually).

Happy Friday all!

I agree that its good that Raleigh and Durham are different. It makes the Triangle as a whole interesting. I hope that Durham is able to develop without losing its grassroots feel. Hopefully we can add affordable housing and entrepeneurial spirit to highest and best use.

[JDC]

This is true, however, with all my Durham bolstering here, I think in some ways Durham should try to be more like Raleigh.

I don't mean Durham should shed its "gritty" or "grassroots" feel. I think there needs to be A LOT more development in the downtown area. More jobs, more homes (not all of them luxury condos of course), and more life. If downtown Durham is to suceed, it needs to take a little bit of what's working in Raleigh, and take a lot of what's already working for itself, and figure out how to make them live in harmony.

Sure there's already a good amount of development going on, but I think it's a little inflated because of all the hype each project gets. People are always surprised about new things happening in Durham (West Village, AmTobacco). But when will we start EXPECTING these projects?

When I walk down the street in what's considered the downtown area of a city with over 200,000 inhabitants, I don't expect to see as many empty parking lots and open fields as I see in Durham.

Durham will always feel different because it's a more "intimate" city I guess. To put it in venue terms, Durham is a small blues club and Raleigh is the Enormodome. And while there may be some local opposition to "overdevelopment," I think people in Durham need to look to the future, not the past.

[raleightransplant]

This is true, however, with all my Durham bolstering here, I think in some ways Durham should try to be more like Raleigh.

I don't mean Durham should shed its "gritty" or "grassroots" feel. I think there needs to be A LOT more development in the downtown area. More jobs, more homes (not all of them luxury condos of course), and more life. If downtown Durham is to suceed, it needs to take a little bit of what's working in Raleigh, and take a lot of what's already working for itself, and figure out how to make them live in harmony.

Sure there's already a good amount of development going on, but I think it's a little inflated because of all the hype each project gets. People are always surprised about new things happening in Durham (West Village, AmTobacco). But when will we start EXPECTING these projects?

When I walk down the street in what's considered the downtown area of a city with over 200,000 inhabitants, I don't expect to see as many empty parking lots and open fields as I see in Durham.

Durham will always feel different because it's a more "intimate" city I guess. To put it in venue terms, Durham is a small blues club and Raleigh is the Enormodome. And while there may be some local opposition to "overdevelopment," I think people in Durham need to look to the future, not the past.

You make some good points. Durham needs to get these buildings downtown turned around...it's happening but God is this a slow process. There is really no excuse for empty storefronts in an area as prosperous as the Triangle. You also point that Durham needs to push for some of what Raleigh's doing. I agree. Some new buildings and energy could really revitalize Durham's core. Durham is engaging, interesting, and culturally diverse. One thing it isn't is very enterprising (the Independent said as much in it's "What I love about Durham" issue)...there is nothing that should stop this place from absolutely exploding in my estimation. Half of it sits in RTP for crying out loud! People all over the world know about RTP. My office is in the park, and I often go to Brightleaf or ATHD for lunch just because it's close and interesting. It takes me about 8 minutes from my office. That is PRIME real estate for people who want to live close to where they work--whether or not that's technically in DT Durham.

[bullcity76]

You make some good points. Durham needs to get these buildings downtown turned around...it's happening but God is this a slow process. There is really no excuse for empty storefronts in an area as prosperous as the Triangle. You also point that Durham needs to push for some of what Raleigh's doing. I agree. Some new buildings and energy could really revitalize Durham's core. Durham is engaging, interesting, and culturally diverse. One thing it isn't is very enterprising (the Independent said as much in it's "What I love about Durham" issue)...there is nothing that should stop this place from absolutely exploding in my estimation. Half of it sits in RTP for crying out loud! People all over the world know about RTP. My office is in the park, and I often go to Brightleaf or ATHD for lunch just because it's close and interesting. It takes me about 8 minutes from my office. That is PRIME real estate for people who want to live close to where they work--whether or not that's technically in DT Durham.

Most of the storefronts are empty due to the streetscape project. There are some retailers who haven't been able to survive the construction period, but when it is complete next spring it should make a remarkable difference.

Right now Durham is rolling the ball uphill...I'm predicting around 2008 it'll be coasting down the other side. Once the current buildings are rehabbed and redeveloped. There will be plenty more development possibilities as you suggested above. Also as the Park runs out of developable campus land, there are plots of land (i.e. some brownfield) just outside of Downtown towards the Park that will be ready for development. If the Council and citizens monitor rather than strangle development, Durham could reach its full potential and still be different from Raleigh.

[JDC]

From the Herald-Sun

"Members said they weren't happy about the possibility that the 800,000-square-foot project might contain six-story buildings."

Would they prefer one-story structures and 14 acres of surface parking? Would they prefer to just leave the area as is?

Message to the Durham Planning Commission: This is a city of over 200,000 inhabitants. Six-story buildings are not unheard of, especially in such close proximity to the CBD. If you want to bring a city to life, you've got to pack it full of people. Right now there is *no* density to speak of in downtown Durham or much of the surrounding area.

[DanRNC]

This is the beginning of the end for downtown Durham development. Momentum squashed, back to the same old same old self destruction that Durham personifies. Man that neighborhood sure does have character (burned out abandoned buildings, crack houses). Need to keep those around.

[yoga]

^ *blink, blink.*

[RaleighRob]

While it was probably a big oversight of the developer to not have the traffic-impact study or detailed development plan, the other reasons the commission has against this development seem downright stupid.

Six stories in most cities would be barely blinked at...are they determined to keep Durham's skyline have only 2 notable buildings??

Durham has soooo much potential. These people on the planning commission really need to stop being so uptight.

(Meanwhile in Raleigh, our planning commission goes the opposite extreme, approving every piece of crap that comes by their desk.)

[ncwebguy]

Amazing... Hayti complains that "city and private-sector financiers have failed to invest" there, yet fights a project that wants to invest there. Do they really think someone wants to invest so close to downtown and

- limit their project's height to three stories

- won't raise property values

- won't compete with existing businesses miles away (Ninth Street, Northgate mall)

- spend nine to 10 months and money on a traffic study that was not required, due to the known excess capacity of neighboring streets

I hate to say this, but the *only* businesses that meet these criterea (including an informal "traffic study") are drugs and prostitution. These won't raise property values, can be run from a one story shack, and thrive in low to no density neighborhoods where people are afraid to walk at night. They also don't compete with existing, legal businesses.

What businesses would be destroyed by more residents moving into the area? Oh, that's right, they need to be the right *kind* of residents that would be welcomed by "the community". If an African-American proposed the same exact thing, would he or she meet the same resistance? No. From the article:

Another commission member, Corinne Mabry, said Rothschild, who is white, had "walked into a hornet's nest" because of Hayti's importance to her and other Durham blacks.

"That entire area should have been declared years ago a historical area," Mabry said. "Sure, it was on the other side of that railroad track, but we had a neighborhood on the other side of the railroad track. We had some businesses on the other side of that railroad track. We were self-contained on the other side of that railroad track. We never had to cross it for anything."

Mabry speaks in the past. Can they now get by without having to cross the railroad tracks/Durham Freeway now? Winn-Dixie has left North Carolina, and no one else is stepping up to fill the need for a grocery store there. Why would they want to step into that hornet's nest?

[JDC]

Sure, let them turn it into an historic area. Or instead, let's ditch Rothschild's idea and bring in some storefront churches instead. Maybe make it something like East Durham.

If Hayti is so important, why is the area so run down? And more importantly, why do the powers that be allow these areas to exist, especially those so close to downtown?

[RaleighRob]

If Hayti is so important, why is the area so run down? And more importantly, why do the powers that be allow these areas to exist, especially those so close to downtown?

Good point. As a Durham citizen and (hopefully) a Durham voter, you should make your feelings on that subject known to the council, loud and clear.

[orulz]

What I've always read is that Hayti distressed and perhaps run-down, but at least still there up until the mid 1960s. The neighborhood was then eviscerated by the Durham freeway in the late 60s and early 70s. Neighborhood preservation groups were several steps behind the highway department, and environmental impact studies were still a thing of the future at that point.

Perhaps the people in the neighborhood see the Heritage Square project as a continuation of the same steamroller urban renewal that happened when the freeway first came through (which really did destroy every hope the neighborhood had.)

I submit, however, that this development is a significant private investment in an area where it is sorely needed, in the place of an old shopping center that is perhaps past its useful life. And given its proximity to downtown, it is not out-of-place at all.

[ChiefJoJo]

And I thought raleigh had problems.

This part is interesting...

The Planning Commission's complaints about the lack of detail in Rothschild's plan came because the developer filed what amounted to a blank drawing of the site, omitting any information about the location and footprints of the buildings he'd put there.

I want to cry foul here, but there is probably some merit for asking the developer for more information before making a decision. I do agree that the concerns over gentrification and traffic seem to be without merit IMO. I tend to agree with this...

"I watched the demise of Hayti, and now we have someone who is willing to make the greatest investment ever in that community, someone who is going to come along and re-establish what should rightfully be at that site, bringing jobs and products and services to our community," said Ed Stewart, president of the UDI Community Development Corp., a nonprofit that counts among its employees Mayor Bill Bell.

Stewart added that it "would be a tragedy if this particular project would be denied," and "a loss to the black community."

[ncwebguy]

This may be going slightly off topic, but what relationship exists between NC Central, NC Mutual Insurance, CCB, and Hayti? Has there been any efforts to help the neighborhood (other than the Hayti heritage center) or is there a disconnect? Why is there so much pride in the self-segregation referred to in commission member Mabry's quote? Does Hayti have an aging population that for one reason or another never attracted later generations to move in or stay?

Did one project (Durham Freeway) by itself divide from downtown (with Parrish Street's "Black Wall Street") and destroy them both? Why did Durham Freeway's extension west of 9th Street/Erwin Road in the early/mid 90s not have the same effect? Did the decline of American Tobacco make a bad area worse?

Will people learn from the mistakes and sins of the past, or cling to them to the end? Why are the only options feast or famine, gentrification or ghetto? Will Hayti be a good example to the rest of East Durham, or just become part of it?

[JDC]

Here's some background from an N&O piece from last February: Heritage Square gets a buyer

[kayman]

Honestly, that sound like a whole bunch of b******t. That is the worst excuse I've heard in my life about not having something that would improve an area. I'm black and I find that excuse downright ignorant and ass-backwards. Those fools in Durham needs to get their heads out of their asses realize East Durham looks like a dump. It is almost to the point of disrepair that New Orleans' Ninth Ward, Southwest Atlanta aka S.W.A.T.S., Memphis' White Haven, and West End in Birmingham.