Heritage Square

[bullcity76]

Will people learn from the mistakes and sins of the past, or cling to them to the end? Why are the only options feast or famine, gentrification or ghetto? Will Hayti be a good example to the rest of East Durham, or just become part of it?

From my conversations with the developer, he has every intention to include existing and new local small businesses. I hope that he would be able to attract broader businesses and franchises to the area. I would love for them to be African-American owned franchises, but will welcome anyone who is willing to serve the community beyond Barber shops, Beauty Salons and nail shops. I was deeply perturbed by this article and will probably attend the Planning Commission meeting when this comes back up.

Fayetteville Street is being held hostage by a self-centered, bitter group of people who speak out of both sides of their mouth. We want to the city to invest in a streetscape [that will benefit our raggedy shopping center] but we don't want someone to come in and invest $125M [cuz it will make our center look even worse]. I see this group of people as commercial slumlords. Northgate is still surviving because it constantly re-invested and re-invented itself. These people must do the same.

Central students must go to Hwy 54 to shop and eat in general. At the same time this gateway is overdue for a makeover. There are still plenty of opportunities for the Hayti community to step up, but I'm not confident it will happen.

Frustrated Gen X'er

[RaleighRob]

^ Good luck trying to get this to happen!

It really shows you a big difference between Raleigh and Durham:

In Raleigh, the Planning Commissioners tend to let the developers do whatever the heck they want and it's the People who have to speak up to halt or slow anything.

In Durham, it's the complete opposite....the People want this project but the planning commissioners are being such @$$es about it, it's incredible.

Wild.

[ncwebguy]

Pulled from the Feb 9th story:

Rothschild said he is sensitive to the area's history and the bad taste many residents still have in their mouths from the forced demolitions of the early 1970s. He plans to hold community meetings with neighborhood business owners and residents in about a month and said he has already met with many of Heritage Square's current tenants.

"This project is smack in the middle of Hayti, and we don't want to be the guys who come in and force everyone out," Rothschild said. "We basically told the tenants that if they work with us then we will work with them. They will have an opportunity to relocate into the new center."

This seems that either a) the community meetings were held and the community decided to fight this project or b) the meetings were not held. I know there is a difference between an *opportunity* of relocating in the new center and the *reality* of displaced businesses losing some customers in the short term and increased rent in the new facility.

The "Fayetteville Street Planning Group" sounds like they are more interested in maintaing the status quo than moving forward. I hope the Planning Commision (and city of Durham as a whole) want to move forward. It seems a select few could keep that from happening *and* continue to blame the city for lack of progress in the area. When Durham housing was in the shopping center (that defaulting on a loan) and paid more required for rent, maintenance was still an afterthought. Who wants to shop in that kind of atmosphere? Why didn't the Planning Group say anything then?

[bullcity76]

The "Fayetteville Street Planning Group" sounds like they are more interested in maintaing the status quo than moving forward. I hope the Planning Commision (and city of Durham as a whole) want to move forward. It seems a select few could keep that from happening *and* continue to blame the city for lack of progress in the area. When Durham housing was in the shopping center (that defaulting on a loan) and paid more required for rent, maintenance was still an afterthought. Who wants to shop in that kind of atmosphere? Why didn't the Planning Group say anything then?

Durham Housing and Community Development is still in the Shopping Center...still paying more for rent...still suffering from deferred maintenance.

I don't see much being invested in the other strip centers either. I hate it when a self-centered, myopic group tries to speak out for the African-American community. There were monthly meetings held in the community and I believe the developer even met with the "Planning Group". I am concerned because I've seen other potentially quality developments choked out by Durham poliltics (whether it be racial or environmental). Why not make sure that it IS a quality development. Instead of trying to kill it and hope the city pays taxpayers money to try to improve the area.

[ChiefJoJo]

N&O: Developer faces resistance in Hayti.

[RaleighRob]

N&O: Developer faces resistance in Hayti.

Wow...this quote speaks volumes: "Anybody who doesn't [think it's a race issue] doesn't know how to open their eyes and look for it," said Corinne Mabry

In otherwords, even if it's not a race issue, you're going to look for one.

If they were actually going to tear down a historic Hayti building, it'd be one thing. But as I undertand it, that's not the case?

And you really gotta give the developer some major credit for this: "Rothschild has promised all current tenants a spot in the new development."

How many developers have you seen doing such a major change in an area would do that??

[DanRNC]

In otherwords, even if it's not a race issue, you're going to look for one.

These people are called race baiters. They make their livlihood off promulgating this. The amazing thing is look at what they have done for their communities-absolutely nothing.

[JDC]

This is ridiculous. Find me another city in the world where people would rather have that dump, than a mixed use development that would bring jobs, homes, and economic development to an area that's in dire need of it.

I'm so tired of this nonsense coming out of Durham.

[Jones_]

Little bit to think on....the Durham Freeway was supposed to revitalize inner Durham but it plowed through Hayti ground zero. White folks in Raleigh stopped the North South Expressway through Oakwood but Black folks in Durham had no chance to stop 147. I agree some folks in Durham can't see a new forest growing for all the trees that have fallen (hmm not sure about that newly coined analagy, but you get my point), but the apprehension is fairly well founded.

[RaleighRob]

^ I don't think anyone would argue that the black community in some parts of Durham don't have a good reason to be apprehensive or cautious about a white developer coming in with a big project.

But the fact remains A) he's offered space for ALL current businesses in the area and B) he's made attempts (community forums, etc) to reach out to the community and gather their input. That's more than just about any other major developer in this state has done, really.

And I think what really gets our blood boiling is that a sitting member of a government body, the planning board, actually has the gall to say that even if this isn't a racial issue, that you have to open your eyes and "look for it"! Oh give me a break, lady.

[Jones_]

^ I don't think anyone would argue that the black community in some parts of Durham don't have a good reason to be apprehensive or cautious about a white developer coming in with a big project.

But the fact remains A) he's offered space for ALL current businesses in the area and B) he's made attempts (community forums, etc) to reach out to the community and gather their input. That's more than just about any other major developer in this state has done, really.

And I think what really gets our blood boiling is that a sitting member of a government body, the planning board, actually has the gall to say that even if this isn't a racial issue, that you have to open your eyes and "look for it"! Oh give me a break, lady.

Fair enough. I would have a better handle on whether these buildings were historic to Hayti if the paper would show some pictures. Some modern junk with HUB's in them hardly represent the history of the community.

[bullcity76]

Little bit to think on....the Durham Freeway was supposed to revitalize inner Durham but it plowed through Hayti ground zero. White folks in Raleigh stopped the North South Expressway through Oakwood but Black folks in Durham had no chance to stop 147. I agree some folks in Durham can't see a new forest growing for all the trees that have fallen (hmm not sure about that newly coined analagy, but you get my point), but the apprehension is fairly well founded.

Ms. Mabry's quote is the mentality that holds Hayti hostage. Hayti is more of "Spirit" now. It was the only place for Blacks to do business back in the day. The Spirit of Hayti has spread throughout the City due to integration. The main people that I have heard voice concern about the center own two other small shopping centers in the area. My thinking is that people will see how crappy their centers are after the new development is built. People will see that they have failed to reinvest in their property.

This development along with other potential developments will present many auxillary opportunities in the adjoining neighborhoods which suffer from an abundance of abandoned housing. Rather than utilizing fear to get people together in opposition of the development, they should be getting the same people together to purchase and rehab dilapidated houses and commercial structures in the area.

I more worried about what Hayti will look like 30-40 years from now with respect for what existed 30-40 years ago.

[ncwebguy]

The people who fight for "the community" have done their job in keeping rents/prices low so that anyone can open a business in those storefronts or live nearby. Unfortunatly, they've created an environment where it is virtually impossible for a business to *stay* in business or live. When the shopping center owner won't do maintenance for a tenant that is paying above market rents, and happens to be the *city*, there are deep rooted issues. As much as I like Durham, I don't want to live there because this "you can find racisim if you look for it, because I'm creating it" attitude holds back the whole city, for better or worse.

Places like The Know don't want the area to be any nicer, as it will look bad in comparison. There is something to be said for historic preservation, but that has not happened in Hayti, save for a few structures.

A Google map of the area shows the surface parking lots that destroyed Hayti as much as Durham Freeway did.

[ChiefJoJo]

N&O: Durham Planning Commission approves site plan.

I don't pretend to know all of the background of the neighborhood, but I do know that the Durham Freeway ripped apart the neighborhood, and I'm sure many still living there remmeber it to this day... but it's time to move on, don't you think? That was over 30 years ago, and you have a developer that is willing to engage the community (most do not) and offer space to neighborhood businesses (very rare). Yes, I'd like to see the plans in detail, but I don't recall anyone having a problem with the design of the buildings--just that the developer is white and he's proposing to build in a historically significant black neighborhood. They developer could have used some political muscle to ram it through, community be damned--but he did not. People need to embrace the future instead of holding onto the past with a death-grip.

[ncwebguy]

Durham Freeway was the first "cut" through Hayti, with the substandard development that followed doing the rest of the damage. Hayti is a symbolic "cultural heart" that was damaged with the freeway, but no one stepped up to take care of what was left over the next 30 years either. Even the "Black Wall Street" in the CBD was left to rot on the proverbial vine. It is nice to see the planning commission give its approval, but the city council could still reject the plan.

Larry Hester, who owns two nearby shopping plazas, said Tuesday that Rothschild never replied to 10 pages of concerns his Fayetteville Street Planning Group provided.

What was in these ten pages of concerns? Who knows. Has Mr. Hester been a good steward of the Fayetville Street corridor? I haven't been through there in a year or so, but I would say no.

[bullcity76]

Durham Freeway was the first "cut" through Hayti, with the substandard development that followed doing the rest of the damage. Hayti is a symbolic "cultural heart" that was damaged with the freeway, but no one stepped up to take care of what was left over the next 30 years either. Even the "Black Wall Street" in the CBD was left to rot on the proverbial vine. It is nice to see the planning commission give its approval, but the city council could still reject the plan.

What was in these ten pages of concerns? Who knows. Has Mr. Hester been a good steward of the Fayetville Street corridor? I haven't been through there in a year or so, but I would say no.

I thought Mr. Hester would be at the last community meeting but he wasn't there. He seems to appear when the camera lights are on (commission and council meetings). I think Duke could learn some things about engaging the community in a rezoning process. I have been to community meetings for Heritage Square and Duke's Central Campus and I can see where Mr. Rothschild has taken the community's desires and concerns to heart in attempt to IMPROVE his project.

If Duke did this, they would come up with a superior project that integrates with Ninth Street and would effectively connect Ninth St. with Medical Community and Cultural/Garden District with more retail. Instead they are try to ram the same scheme down the community's throat.

[ChiefJoJo]

Heritage Square project is approved.

Some questioned whether Rothschild, who is white, could exercise the necessary sensitivity to develop the the site and still stay true to its history. Others complained that the proposed project would increase traffic, draw customers away from black-owned businesses and cause the values of the surrounding property to rise too quickly, thereby forcing out low-income residents who could not afford to pay higher property taxes.

"We don't want this gigantic development driving up our property taxes," said Sterlin Holt Sr., to the cheers of his neighbors. "We don't want it."

It's time to move on from the Durham Freeway comparisons, and they seem to be really unfair to me, since that was over 30 years ago. It's time to move on...

[ChiefJoJo]

Heritage Square developer Andy Rothschild of Scientific Properties says he can't develop Heritage Square without $6.1M from the city/county of Durham. I had no idea his plans were this big: mixed use development that would include 310,000 square feet of retail space, 202,000 square feet of office space and about 100 residential units off Fayetteville Street in Durham.

I hope this project can go forward, but I'm not sure the city will be able or even should cover those costs. At least he's not asking for $75M.

[ncwebguy]

A couple of weekends ago, we drove by this area, going up Fayetville from Southpoint to downtown. On a nice Saturday afternoon, there was hardly any foot traffic, and businesses seemed to be barely hanging on, viable only because of the area's low rents.

The "shopping center" is hard to see since it slopes down and away from Fayetville Street. The idea of vertical mixed use puts in a pedestrain friendly, level plaza that the area is sorely lacking.

The new $6.1 M request is on top of an existing $6 Million already granted. That being said, the article says Scientific Properties "needs" a 15 percent profit. Assuming the $123 M price tag includes the 15% profit margin built in, SP's 85% "investment" would be $104.55 M.

So the city's money is increassing the developer's profit from $6.45 million (no assistance) to the "full" $18.45 million. Is this a good public policy? I don't know. Mr. Rothschild and company are taking a risk by improving an area that doesn't want to be improved to the level he is proposing, construction costs could rise, and the market on that side of the freeway is speculative, to say the least.

If the city and county of Durham were healthier, it would be a no brainer to do this to improve a core neighborhood. But to spend money that is only increasing an exisitng profit margin is borderline questionable.

[bullcity76]

A couple of weekends ago, we drove by this area, going up Fayetville from Southpoint to downtown. On a nice Saturday afternoon, there was hardly any foot traffic, and businesses seemed to be barely hanging on, viable only because of the area's low rents.

The "shopping center" is hard to see since it slopes down and away from Fayetville Street. The idea of vertical mixed use puts in a pedestrain friendly, level plaza that the area is sorely lacking.

The new $6.1 M request is on top of an existing $6 Million already granted. That being said, the article says Scientific Properties "needs" a 15 percent profit. Assuming the $123 M price tag includes the 15% profit margin built in, SP's 85% "investment" would be $104.55 M.

So the city's money is increassing the developer's profit from $6.45 million (no assistance) to the "full" $18.45 million. Is this a good public policy? I don't know. Mr. Rothschild and company are taking a risk by improving an area that doesn't want to be improved to the level he is proposing, construction costs could rise, and the market on that side of the freeway is speculative, to say the least.

If the city and county of Durham were healthier, it would be a no brainer to do this to improve a core neighborhood. But to spend money that is only increasing an exisitng profit margin is borderline questionable.

[heart]

I sort of echo the last people's comments. I do think Durham is very healthy and that with the university around that if a quality project is there then it has as good a chance to be successful as anything anywhere does. It is sorta concerning that the city is paying that much money just to increase his profits. However, though this is the real world and if Durham wants to continue to improve I think it may be in its best interests sometimes to bend the 'moral' rules as it did with the Theater and rich Duke paying the extra 2 million after they had already given 7 million. East Durham (where Golden Belt is planned) and South of the freeway are quite frankly downtrodden now. I think we need to just suck it up and reward those who take risks although I don't like it either.

[ncwebguy]

From the article linked to a few posts ago:

But the county has an extensive list of capital projects in the works -- its draft capital plan now tops $900 million.

"We're up to our ears in commitments," said Ellen Reckhow, chairwoman of the Durham Board of Commissioners. "I'm very supportive of Andy's projects. I just don't know if the county can participate financially."

...

[The $2 million streetscape improvements] would be paid for with debt payments of $160,000 a year for 20 years. Stith said such money could be better spent on additional police officers.

[bullcity76]

"Stith said such money could be better spent on additional police officers."

That statement is part of the problem in Durham. "Add more police officer" is very emotional response to fighting crime. Are you going to have a police officer on the corner of every neighborhood street? I'm not sure that improves the perception of crime either. There are deeper social issues that many people in Durham (and hopefully other cities including Raleigh and Chapel Hill) are trying to address.

This deal is more like TIF-lite...The Herald-Sun characterized it as padding the developer's profits. The city's reward will far outweigh the initial cost especially over such a short timeframe. There will be jobs and entrepeneurial opportunities for area residents. More people will want to occupy the vacant houses in the surrounding neighborhoods. Or do we give $6M to hire and equip more cops to ride around and consume donuts (I couldn't resist :0) all day. My hope is that this subsidy will allow the developer to include the Hayti community in the project (through reasonable rents) as much as possible.

Without subsidies, the rents would definitely be prohibitively more expensive and a chance to provide opportunities for this community will be missed. Plus it just wouldn't go over too well with the community for them not to be included.

[ncwebguy]

If the city and county's contributions had "strings attached" like reduced rent for community businesses, instead of a straight handout, maybe more people would be on board? Under previous ownership, the county rented space at higher than market rate, yet lightning, the parking lot, etc. were left in disrepair.

If the city/county used a financial tool like signing a lease for some of the office or retail space (police substation?), it would increase the return on the investment by encourage new development/increasing the tax base *and* give the project a good boost by putting people in the area as soon as the project comes on line.

Those office workers become shoppers for the retail portion and potential residents as well. An increased 8 am - 11 pm population in the area will do a lot more fo the area than police officers ever will. There is a blurred line between not enough of a police presence and a police state. Requesting more officers gives the impression that an area is unsafe, which scares off potential development. Yet vibrant, crowded sidewalks mostly police themselves, as evidenced by the other side of Durham Freeway.

Why does the section of Fayetville Street near NCCU's campus feel like a run down version of 9th/Franklin/Hillsborough Street? There seems to be a large enough student population to support more diverse businesses than hair/nail/beauty salons. Do students not feel safe in the area or do businesses cater more to the residential population than the students? Can they not serve both communities?

[ChiefJoJo]

Scentific Properties now has their money from the city. $2M to be exact, and still "needs" $8M from the county to be able to move forward with his project. He is investing $152M on 833k sf, and the money won't be spent if the project is not built. Good news for the south side of 147.