Does Society cause Bad Development?

[monsoon]

[tocoto]

Wow, from the ipcture you'd think no one had ever seen a mall/store in their lives.

Many malls have gone bust for on e reason or another. In boston, they still build retail downtown, but there is plenty of development in the suburbs too. A new thing is building multi-story retail near the suburban malls. It's almost like the mall is a beach or other attraction for people who love to shop.

[Neo]

I was more intrigued by the opening of the new Apple store in this new wing. 8-)

[Cotuit]

We have a Nordstrom's in downtown Providence in the Providence Place Mall. I've been in there, I really can't fathom why anyone would congregate in a huge mob for a chance to be the first one in. Isn't there a few dozen Walmarts these people could be at?

[G W North]

I can't believe there would be no transit there at all. In Canada, all the major malls are transit hubs. In Vancouver and Toronto in particular, almost all of the major malls have a subway/Skytrain stop built right into the mall. Even the ones that don't are major bus hubs where a few dozen city bus routes converge.

[BrandonTO416]

This isn't Canada, though. And its not even the most transit-oriented part of the USA.

I think society follows the lead of the business class that decides where things like this go. People don't decide things like this 100%, government and big business does for the most part.

So no, it isn't society. Society just acts as the herd.

[monsoon]

[Wendell FOX]

"As you can see from the photos of the people salavating like Pavalov's dogs"

:haha:

I assume that Nordstorm is looked as a more high-end store, plus as a product of the Northeast or wherever it originated in, and not an alternative to the typical Wal-Marts or southern creations such as Belk's or Dillard's, thus it has a more exquisite tone to it.

[monsoon]

[Guest donaltopablo]

I think society and developers have a equal hand in bad development. Developers wouldn't develop certain styles if people didn't want them. But much of America's society have become lemmings. Malls start getting popular, so they build more. More malls, the more the lemmings want to go.

I've got a friend that is the exact suburbanite we make fun of around here. It's not that he dislikes urban lifestyle or smart development, or even that he wants malls. He just doesn't care enough to take his money elsewhere, so he just goes to the mall.

[monsoon]

[uptownliving]

As a downtown Charlotte resident I would have loved to have Nordstrom downtown as they have a much better young mens selection of clothing than Belk, Dillards, or Hechts.

The only way that Nordstrom was going to locate in downtown Charlotte was if the project was subsidized in some fashion similar to its recent downtown Norfolk store. The City of Charlotte at the time told the developer they were asking for too much assistance and so no deal was made, and the project fell apart. Due to those market forces Nordstroms ended up at SouthPark Mall in a suburban location.

One last note: SouthPark mall is served by 5 CATS bus routes.

[Raleigh-NC]

I think society and developers have a equal hand in bad development.  Developers wouldn't develop certain styles if people didn't want them.  But much of America's society have become lemmings.  Malls start getting popular, so they build more.  More malls, the more the lemmings want to go.

I've got a friend that is the exact suburbanite we make fun of around here.  It's not that he dislikes urban lifestyle or smart development, or even that he wants malls.  He just doesn't care enough to take his money elsewhere, so he just goes to the mall.

I totally agree with you. I think that it will take a smooth transition before we see the "mass hysteria" over a mall, or a new anchor, disappear. People seem to be so attached to their cars and their suburban lifestyle (not necessarily equal to living in the suburbs), that I am truly disappointed when I see the masses rush into a mall because the ABC or XYZ store opened. Nevertheless, there will be some "brave" developers who will always take a first step towards more transitional projects. Raleigh's New North Hills is a good example of how a mall may be converted to something less suburban and sprawling. Still, not there yet, but we can safely predict that in the future people will gradually shift from the typical sprawling malls. All it takes is a few good developers and the people will eventually change. It won't happen overnight, but the "revolution" needs to start some day.

[monsoon]

[uptownliving]

It is very unfortnate that this phenomina is not just unique to Charlotte. New malls were just recently completed in Durham, Raleigh, and Myrtle Beach. This is a regional and national problem. There has been a recent shift however in the right direction in my opinion in the redevelopment of downtowns. Every little bit helps.

Downtown Charlotte may have missed the boat on a large department store, but there are many other retail oportunites out there, such as the new CVS Drugstore, Movie Theatre, and the Entertainment Center. There is also the Park East development and possible Midtown Redevelopment which will increase retail and be well connected with downtown.

SouthPark mall is not an urban oasis and likely never will be, however I feel that the changes that have been made at the mall and in the surrounding area have made it a better (dare I say more urban ) place than it was 5 years ago.

[49er]

Yeah I saw that a full size CVS is opening downtown, thats cool. The other two drugstores close at 5pm. There are enough residents moving in that significant retail is probably 5 years down the road.

[appatone]

Simon still has plans to develop an exterior part of the mall on the corner of Morrison and Sharon. This development should be "Phillips Place-esc"in style connecting to the mall. My hope is that they use that development to create a pedestrian outlet from the mall to Morrison and Sharon. This could spur further pedestrian scale retail on Morrison across the street from the mall and help to "urbanize" the mall as much as possible. The connection between the other exterior section of the mall where Galyans is located and the new Symphony Park could also be strengthened in a pedestrian friendly manor to further increase pedestrian accsess from further down Morrison. An urban connection at both the top and bottom of the malls property along Morrison would really connect this mall to an exterior urban neighborhood. Perhaps the surface lots on the Morrison side could be altered into parking decks similar to the other decks around the mall only with retail lining Morrison street.

[appatone]

I was talking about Morrison. But I was talking also about more than just a few apartments. This could run along the entire length of the mall property along Morrison. Simon is developing the lot in a Phillips Place style no matter what, so they could at least orient the development not only to connect to the mall but also out to the street. Since they are developing that lot there will be a need for more parking so chances are they will be building a parking deck in front of Hecht's. Looking at their other parking decks it does look as if there would be room for Simon to add retail space in front of the deck along Morrison. The land across Morrison from the mall (Goodwill donation site, etc.) is ripe for re-development right now. The developer would no doubt develop that land in a pedestrian friendly manner in order to draw directly off of the mall. So, If Simon were to develop this side of the mall in this manner it could connect the Shops on Morrison, Symphony Park, Double Tree, The Pinnacle, Grubb's proposed Morrison Place (another Phiilips Place style development), Several office buildings, and any new developmet springing up on those underutilized lots all in a pedestrain friendly manner that would create a 'mainstreet effect" all along Morrison Ave.

[Spartan]

there is not any store on this entire planet that i would put up with that crap for. those people are crowded in there like the products won't be replenished on a weekly basis.

southpark mall is a really nice place. i'm glad to know they have a mac store. i've been thinking about getting one of those awsome new imacs next time i buy a computer- its nice to not have to drive to lenox square to test drive one.

i have never heard of nordstrom until i went to sp mall a few weeks ago. my girlfriend, however, has- suprise suprise

edit: i saw that UP sig on that womans hair, and for just a second, i thought she was trying to set a new hair style trend...................

[uptownliving]

I don't see why it is any surprise that a bunch of woman would go gaga over a new high end store opening. Any who knows a woman knows this is nothing new.

[uptownliving]

Simon still has plans to develop an exterior part of the mall on the corner of Morrison and Sharon. This development should be "Phillips Place-esc"in style connecting to the mall. My hope is that they use that development to create a pedestrian outlet from the mall to Morrison and Sharon. This could spur further pedestrian scale retail on Morrison across the street from the mall and help to "urbanize" the mall as much as possible. The connection between the other exterior section of the mall where Galyans is located and the new Symphony Park could also be strengthened in a pedestrian friendly manor to further increase pedestrian accsess from further down Morrison. An urban connection at both the top and bottom of the malls property along Morrison would really connect this mall to an exterior urban neighborhood. Perhaps the surface lots on the Morrison side could be altered into parking decks similar to the other decks around the mall only with retail lining Morrison street.

I agree with you appatone. SouthPark as we know it today, will be much more urban in the next 5 years. Grubb is moving ahead with their mixed use development on the corner of Colony and Sharon....also, Crescent is moving ahead with a similar development on Carnigie and Fairview. So SouthPark will be seeing a lot of pedestrian friendly development in the new few years.

[49er]

All you have to do is look down the road at Buckhead and see how the district is shaping up and evolving. We'll continue to see more semi-urban and urban developments occur in this part of town.

The new Allen Tate building on Fairview is a shame though. Its got ground level retail, offices in the middle and million $ condos up top, yet its still set back from the road with a big parking lot in front.

[uptownliving]

Yeah they should not have set back that building, they should have put that parking in back, not out front...it is a nice building though.

[monsoon]

[Neo]

In true Charlotte fashion, the Observer states the most important features of the new CVS announced for downtown is a parking lot and drive through window.  Go to a real city and you don't see these "features" on downtown stores.

Actually, there is a Walgreens in Chicago that was 3 blocks from where I lived, right across from the Hard Rock. Not only was it a Walgreens with a drive-thru and a parking lot but diagonal from it was a full service suburb type McDonalds with parking lot and drive-thru. Mind you that this is in downtown Chicago, one of the most dense cities in America.

*Note that I lived in the building that is directly behind the "Rock & Roll Cafe" sign.

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