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Lmichigan

For first time, Detroit's black population falls

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Amongst all of the good news, the neighborhoods continue to suffer. I was really disheartened to hear how big the trend was. I knew this was happening, I just didn't know it was to this extent. Detroit can't afford to lose the rest of its middle class, and that looks exactly like what is happening. What suprised me is where these families and individuals are moving, to historically hostile suburbs to minorities. And, still the trend continues as Blacks (even though most that are moving away are young professionals) move into these new burbs, almost all of their White populations have dropped.

Still, this is from the new American City Survey, which like the old census estimate has its flaws, but shows trend. The population estimates, as usual, seem too low, but still show a trend. The AMC doesn't take into account people in correctional facilities, military barracks and university housing, which would really effect cities like Ann Arbor or East Lansing.

A Michigan snapshot

State lags behind nation in population, but sharp rise in minorities adds to diversity

August 15, 2006

BY AMBER HUNT, MARISOL BELLO and VICTORIA

Michigan's population increased slightly from 2000 to 2005, despite fears that the struggling economy would fuel an exodus of jobs and people -- but its growth hasn't kept pace with the rest of the country's.

That's according to figures released today as part of the American Community Survey, an annual snapshot of the country and selected communities. Compared with similar figures from 2000, the state's population rose only about 2% -- to 9.68 million.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2006608150312

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For first time, Detroit's black population falls

Gordon Trowbridge / Detroit News Washington Bureau

After five decades of watching their white neighbors leave the city of Detroit by the thousands, Detroit's African-Americans have begun to follow.

Detroit's black population fell 10 percent from 2000 to 2005, according to population estimates released today by the U.S. Census Bureau.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic...ENSUS/608150351

Graph 1 (it won't let me link the image)

http://vh10924.moc.gbahn.net/apps/pbcsi.dl...00&MaxW=250

Graph 2 (same)

http://vh10924.moc.gbahn.net/apps/pbcsi.dl...100&title=1

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not exactly indicative of a demographic change though....the white population fell by 14%, just speaks to the poor state of the outer neighborhoods in our city

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Well, it amounts to a demographic change when you look at the metro as a whole as the Free Press did. As was made a point of, this is a big deal because despite White Flight, Detroit had been attracting Black Americans from around the country up until very recently. It may still be doing this, but it's not offsetting the exodus from the outring neighborhoods. And, it's not really that they are all that bad. I actually don't see the outerring neighborhoods (particularly northwest and northeast) deteriorating anywhere near the scale of what happened to the core city neighborhoods. I think the problem is just simple competition. You may be able to get a good deal on a house up in the northwest, but you can get more bang for your buck in terms of services (schools, basic city services...) just across the border in say Warren or Southfield. Again, it's not that the southern neighborhoods in Warren or Southfield are in so much better shape or better looking, in fact, in some cases that's not even the case, it's about competition.

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I'm not trying to take a stab at this thread because I think it's worthy of it's place on the forum and further discussion, but I'm getting really sick of race being an issue in every day life in Detroit.

This afternoon I (a white twenty two year old) walked into a neighborhood bar on Livernois. I was stared at for a good portion of my stay, and even received a few comments about "crossing the boarder".

Now I know how the real world works, it just bothers me that race is still such a topic in the world today...that racism is still alive today. Traditionally white suburbs and even mixed suburbs are turning into urbanized centers of segregation.

3 of my 4 closest friends are black. When we are together, nobody sees the color of my skin as being different, and I know I dont see it in them. Why cant this get through to the rest of society?

sorry if I'f pissed anyone off...I'm just speaking my mind.

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I'm not trying to take a stab at this thread because I think it's worthy of it's place on the forum and further discussion, but I'm getting really sick of race being an issue in every day life in Detroit.

This afternoon I (a white twenty two year old) walked into a neighborhood bar on Livernois. I was stared at for a good portion of my stay, and even received a few comments about "crossing the boarder".

Now I know how the real world works, it just bothers me that race is still such a topic in the world today...that racism is still alive today. Traditionally white suburbs and even mixed suburbs are turning into urbanized centers of segregation.

3 of my 4 closest friends are black. When we are together, nobody sees the color of my skin as being different, and I know I dont see it in them. Why cant this get through to the rest of society?

sorry if I'f pissed anyone off...I'm just speaking my mind.

Sigh... I fell ya, man.

it's Detroit man. It's part of our daily lives and theres nothing that can be done about it. A lot of the blacks in the city/whites outside the city are just too racially-fu**ing-hostile to anyone else. Whether its to Arabs from Dearborn, or the whites from anywhere else, they're just not ready to get along with someone of a different race.

I don't want my soon-to-be daughter to go through what I endured living in the heart of Detroit. It would be impossible to avoid racial harassment anywhere outside SW Detroit. I too had a lot of friends in the Linwood-Dexter area and couldn't walk around that area without being called a boarder hopper and the occasional dude poking his head out the car window, screaming "ayayayayayayayayay!" at the top of their lungs. I even have two white friends up in Birmingham, and when we're walking down Old Woodward we are avoided like the plague, and its not my friends they're avoiding.

And for my girlfriend (Mexican/Puerto Rican)... well, she was a victim of a hate crime by five black men, and I'm not going to get into the details. No, this wasn't a random assault, it was a hate crime.

Nope, she ain't gonna put up with that bull****. And it'll be even worse with her being a girl and all. So me and the woman made the decision to migrate out to Vegas. Not only do we have the job ops, but she will be in a well integrated neighborhood, in a well integrated school, and she won't have to worry about going outside to play without getting harrassed.

When I speak to people about Detroits' racial issue, they'll tell me that this s*** happens everywhere, and it does. They really have no idea of the magnitude of the hate that we Detroiters had to put up with. Hell, the only time the Metro unites at one is for a damn Pistons, Lions or Tigers game.

Sorry I went off on a tangent there. I came in to sympathize with you and the other Detroiters that go through this crap on the regular, and I got a little carried away, lol.

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While negative things ("look who crossed 8 mile" "all of the new black kids are killing our schools" "bla bla bla") is racist, I think positive things ("look, a black guy moved into our neighborhood, yay! we're diverse!" etc) are also racist (although with good intentions). On the other hand, I think diversity is a good thing, so those two ideas conflict with each other. But I agree with statedude, race shouldn't be an issue either way.

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I disagree with this idea some have implied here about "Colorblindness." I think that glosses over too well the problems this country has had with race. Colorblindness kind of dismisses that there were every any problems and that some of us, by the sole virtue of our birth, are on higher pedestals than other. I advocate multiculturalism, much like what you'll find in parts of cosmopolitan/urban Canada where positive differences in culture, race, and ethnicity aren't swept under the rug or ignored, rather they are celebrated, appreciated, or at least the very respected. The whole "I don't see race" may be with good intentions, but it's a dishonest, naive, and quite counterproductive. We shouldn't be looking to try and gloss over race relations and disparities. Quite the opposite. We should be running full speed ahead at confronting these problems. Colorblindness simply puts someone in the false reality where everything's magically been leveled, and everyone has been made equal (not just under the law, which has already been done, but made equal socially). I think colorblindness is probably one of the most counterproductive ideologies out there concerning the race issue when you really break it down. It's easily the one that walks on the most eggshells, but do we want meaningful solutions (of which many have been found, but many more remain) for ethnic healing, or do we want to keep putting make-up on the pig and pretend that everyone was always (and is) given a share fake in society with no basis on race/culture/ethnicity?

All that said, it's not Detroit's only problem. I think this article shows that. Save for immigrants and a greater downtown resurgence, American's black and white have lost faith in most of Detroit.

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I just think that some approaches to racism overlook the individual. Something that's commonly said is, to go talk to someone of a different color. If someone seems to share the same interests as me, I'll talk to them, whatever their color is, but I don't think that talking to random people because of their color is the right way to go about things.

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Yes, we are getting off topic here...but I just wanted to pipe in with my two cents.

I believe that racism is taught. It is passed down to children from their parents or guardians through ignorance. And that it's not necessarily congregated into clusters in any particular area, it's sprinkled about...that's why it's dangerous and harmful, because it's not always evident. You don't always know that you're in the presence of it and that you're being affected by it. It's usually someone's dirty little secret.

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All that said, it's not Detroit's only problem. I think this article shows that. Save for immigrants and a greater downtown resurgence, American's black and white have lost faith in most of Detroit.

And this is why I blame polarization. The suburbs, as a whole will filter in much of Detroit's fleeing blacks without incident or uprise. This will help the negative polarization, even if Mr. and Mrs. White keep avoiding interaction.

Racial polarization, in my mind, is the foundation in which race hatred rests and is able to exist. Polarization can exist on an extreme level (like Detroit) or on lesser scales, as in most other metropolitan areas.

I think one thing that has really helped me to understand this first hand is my own personal experiences from living in Detroit. I am middle-20s and white and choose to live in the city. So far, I have been harrassed by both blacks and whites. For instance, about a month and a half ago, on a nice, hot, sunny, summer afternoon, I thought I would go catch some rays out on Belle Isle. It was busy there, so I figured I'd claim my own remote spot away from the beach. I wasn't able to stay very long because after a few minutes, the racist comments, whispers, cackles, and stares kicked me out. Much of it comes from driving as well, where I've been targeted while driving and walking downt the sidewalk.

The white incident occurred when I was walking down Woodward to my apartment and a barreling SUV roared passed with a half-dozen Abercrombie models hanging out the window screamed, "whitey takin over the city!".

My experiences have progressively gotten worse, but it's things like going to church on a weekly basis, meeting new people, and becoming involved in the neighborhoods that reestablishes my confidence that I'm not psychotic for living where I do.

My car's been stolen, broken into more than once, the bank's been robbed, trash not picked up, streetlights out on numerous occassions, and the list will grow and grow. I'm not even a homeowner, and I've had my fair share of inconveniences. I wonder at what point in time it was determined that black people are understood as being ok with sub-parr living conditions and will settle for that status quo. The reports that you are seeing now about the black depopulation of Detroit is proof that that isn't true...not that it ever was so shame on anyone who ever thought it was.

So, then is it really race that's the bottom line or is it culture? Blacks are leaving blacks because they want better for themselves and their families. Does that mean the "good" in this black society will turn its back from Detroit, and the "bad" in the black society will thrive in a city left for themselves to further destroy, corrupt, impoverish, murder, vandalize, etc? What's the result? Further polarization, but now polarization WITHIN a race? Perhaps.

Aside from all this rambling, I have to say I mean no disrespect to anybody. Though I could go on forever and be more dramatic with my real-world revalations, my intent is really just to promote the idea that there is going to be a breaking point in this region at one point or another. It may be next year, after the 2010 census, or in 62 years. Central Detroit may continue to flourish, but that is not going to stop the social and physical conditions that we've suffered from since Detroit started its up-and-down rollercoaster abilities. While other cities go up and down their tracks, Detroit seems to continue on the downward slope.

I've mentioned the concept of 0-population before just as a way to paint a picture of extremity. We may never get to that point, but each and every person that contributes to it (meaning every person that leaves) gets us one step closer to the breaking point of where we're going to have to respond or react to. And it's going to be more than just a state take over.

My 2 cents.

These make Eminem videos look like Mickey Mouse:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8btGpSHmO6I&amp...ted&search=

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uVEgdcJCDgE

Just type in "Detroit" into Youtube.com and you get more of the same. This is a problem and all too real. This is why blacks are leaving and can you blame them?

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That's according to figures released today as part of the American Community Survey, an annual snapshot of the country and selected communities. Compared with similar figures from 2000, the state's population rose only about 2% -- to 9.68 million.
I'm confused. The state's population in 2000 was 9,938,444, according to the US Census Bureau. So, how could it "grow" to 9,680,000? Furthermore, the US Census Bureau estimates the state's population as 10,120,860, as of July 1, 2005. That's 440,000 more people than American Community Survey's figure.

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The American Community Survey is whack, I've found, since yesterday. In some ways it's more detailed, but I don't think it's great a tracking population. For instance, if you go to the American FactFinder on the census' web, you'll see that they'll give a number which doesn't count any group quarters (college dormitories, prisons and other correctional facilities, military bases, and other group quarters...) this effect some cities more than other's but it's still a bogus number. On top of that they show their estimate and then put +/- so much. In Detroit's case they say +/- 15,000 or some ridiculous margin of error. What really got me was that they reported a slight growth for Lansing since 2000, when every single estimate has reported slight losses since 2000.

I don't know what to think of these numbers.

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I don't know what to think of these numbers.

I agree with your analysis, LMich. I just hope they are right in the case

of Lansing ...

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Not yet. Gentrification is barely on the radar screen in Detroit. The poor aren't getting pushed out, not even a little.

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I would say that gentrification is more than just barely on the radar in Midtown.

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Midtown is what, 2 square miles of a 139 square miles of land, with a permanent population of what 20,000 residents at the moment out of a total of 860,000-880,000? I'd hardly call that representative of what's going on in much of the city. Even with Midtown, how many people do you think has been replaced? Gentrification, for almost the entire city, is not even an issue.

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I drove down woodward, cass and a little of john R on Monday... I'm not sure its full-blown gentrification just yet, but coexistance is certainly entrenching itself in a big way.

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LMich, all cities have poor people in their inner-city neighborhoods. Houston, Phoenix, Dallas, and Atlanta have *huge* amounts of non-gentrified neighborhoods outside of their core downtowns. When these cities do talk about gentrification, they are usually talking about in the older downtown neighborhoods. In Detroit's case the older downtown neighborhoods are Downtown, Midtown, New Center, Corktown, Woodbridge, Eastern Market, Lafayette Park, and Rivertown. All of these areas have tons of gentrification going on or in the works.

Granted, 3rd St through Cass Park is probably the biggest example of non-gentrification in the core. But I'd bet in the next decade or so, you won't be seeing many homeless in Cass Park. All cities (even New York and San Francisco) are going to have poor people living within their boundaries, but most cities are seeing their downtowns overtaken by gentrifiers.

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My only point is that there isn't some large scale gentrification (displacing of thousands or tens of thousands of lower-income individuals/families) taking place to the point of where Detroit needs to start worrying about offsetting upscale housing with construction of affordable housing. It's not like in central NYC or Chicago where affordable housing is a huge issue. Actually, it's an issue, too, in Detroit, but not because of gentrification. Land isn't even and issue, as Detroit has too much vacant land.

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The gentrification process will be market driven. Gentrification will first manifest in core areas via new condos, conversion of warehoused into lofts, ect and then in the neighborhoods with historic neglected housing. This is not a process that will happen overnight, but it is happening all across America.

That said, the upcoming energy crisis (in the next 2 to 5 years) will compel

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Damn, you know Detroit is messed up when even the blacks are leaving. The blacks probably got tired of the criminality up there. I didn't think Detroit would suffer that bad to where it's black population would hightail it elsewhere.

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That's because Detroit had the largest concentration of black middle-class families in the nation, and now they are leaving in droves.

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