For first time, Detroit's black population falls

[HolidayInnExpress]

Damn, you know Detroit is messed up when even the blacks are leaving. The blacks probably got tired of the criminality up there. I didn't think Detroit would suffer that bad to where it's black population would hightail it elsewhere.

To be fair...the statistics are not reliable but if we are to accept the data then accept them in the context of what

[RustTown]

I find that assessment funny from someone coming from New Orleans of all places, a city with problems almost identical to Detroits, just as socially screwed, and a city which was bleeding people even before Katrina. The pot shouldn't be calling the keetle black. lol

[Ark]

What suprised me is where these families and individuals are moving, to historically hostile suburbs to minorities.

I don't understand exactly where this comes from. Yes, there is white flight and, yes, the suburbs are mostly white. However, the suburbs, in my area, aren't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Living in Madison Heights (located between Royal Oak and Warren in Oakland County - SE) I see a good deal of minorities. The local high school is practically 1/3 white, 1/3 arabic & 1/3 black (from Detroit). The "rich" part of the city are neighborhoods where arabics are heavily populated.

I also go to two different schools: Oakland Community College (Royal Oak Campus) & University of Michigan (Dearborn Campus). OCC-Royal Oak is filled with african americans along with whites. U of M - D is filled with arabs and whites. The cities of Dearborn have a very big population of arabics with a decent population of whites, and same goes for Sterling Heights. Oak Park is mostly black, Jewish, and some non-Jewish whites. Huntington Woods is mostly Jewish with a good number of non-Jewish whites, and Southfield is a mix of black and white.

Not only do all of the races get together in my area, but we also celebrate our heritages in peace - such as the Polish parade they recently had in Hamtramick that was filled with whites, arabs & blacks. If I were an African American I would be a lot less scared to move to the suburbs than being a white American and moving to Detroit.

As others have already written on this thread it is hard to go into Detroit every week and not, at least once, get made fun of for being white. I know I have and so have my friends. This video on YouTube shows this point: http://youtube.com/watch?v=uVEgdcJCDgE (It's at 4:33 in the video - incase you don't want to watch the first four minutes)

With the African Americans yelling out, when a white jogger runs by them, that he is running for his life because someone stole his car. I'm sorry, but I think saying such things fuel racial indifference and intolerance. Unfortunately, I would have to say there are obviously xenophobes in Detroit - just as much or, maybe, more than the suburbs.

[resourcefulidiot]

I walked the streets of the less established areas of midtown everyday this summer as part of my job (2nd and Alexandrine), carrying heavy and expensive equipment up and down the streets back and forth to different job sites, driving my parents $40,000 car and I never was talked to like that by anyone, ever....(except one crazy old guy who was being escorted to a medical building who called me a white devil, but he called his caretaker that too and hes black). Not even the pimps, crackheads, or hookers that frequent that corner said anything except nodding or waving as I walked by.

btw, its really weird how there are all thoses seedy people there but one block north at willis its really not that ghetto at all

[Ark]

I walked the streets of the less established areas of midtown everyday this summer as part of my job (2nd and Alexandrine), carrying heavy and expensive equipment up and down the streets back and forth to different job sites, driving my parents $40,000 car and I never was talked to like that by anyone, ever....(except one crazy old guy who was being escorted to a medical building who called me a white devil, but he called his caretaker that too and hes black). Not even the pimps, crackheads, or hookers that frequent that corner said anything except nodding or waving as I walked by.

btw, its really weird how there are all thoses seedy people there but one block north at willis its really not that ghetto at all

Well the jogger in the video I posted probably didn't hear what they were saying - they said it by the camera. A lot of it isn't confrontational - then again racism hardly ever is. Usually people say racist things about others, i'm talking about both whites and blacks here, in a security setting where they don't have to worry about retaliation. Like the poster who mentioned the guy yelling out of his car - that is the closest to confrontational you'll probably ever get because the racist doesn't worry about being attacked if he's on a car and you're on a bike.

The only time their confrontational is if they really want to start something. I like to think that only a very small portion of both the Detroit and suburban population are xenophobes or racists.

[Zissou]

Racism is fueled by ignorance and those who are arent very confrontational about it. The worst confrontation Ive had came from a group of young African American males driving by who called me a "cracker" then told me to "get the f*ck out of their neighborhood." I suppose I could be a bit more understanding if I was walking around with my camera taking pictures of blight, like I have done before, but I was building homes for Habitat for Humanity. I was glad I was making a difference and was happy to donate my time but I'd be lying if I said the comments didn't bother me. Here I was trying to revitalize a neighborhood and help out a community and all they could see that I happened to be white. At the end of the day though I was able to brush it off and still feel good about the experience because I know that I made a difference.

[RustTown]

Surprise this came back up. Anyway, Ark, let me explain to you exactly where I'm coming from. The fact of the matter is, a black person is far more likely to be a victim of a hate in Michigan, than a white person. And, I venture to say the trend holds true for Metro Detroit, as well. For instance, as of 2003 174 of Michigan's hate crimes were referred to as "anti-black" while 87 where referred to as "anti-white." This is a state where only 14% of Michigan is black/African American.

1. http://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Michigan_...rimes,_2003.pdf

And, that is why I completely disagree with the statement "If I were an African American I would be a lot less scared to move to the suburbs than being a white American and moving to Detroit." That statement doesn't make sense, and the facts don't bear that out. There seems to be this unfounded fear in whites visiting Detroit that they are far more targeted than blacks visiting the suburbs, and the facts just don't bear that out. Being black in Detroit or the suburbs is more dangerous a situation than being white in either. The fact is, that being black in America, in general, is fare more a dangerous situation than being white, and that goes for almost every environment and social mixing, which is why I don't get that comment at all.

But, take the race issue out, and anyone is more likely to be a victim of a genral crime in parts of Detroit than in most of the suburbs.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

Surprise this came back up. Anyway, Ark, let me explain to you exactly where I'm coming from. The fact of the matter is, a black person is far more likely to be a victim of a hate in Michigan, than a white person. And, I venture to say the trend holds true for Metro Detroit, as well. For instance, as of 2003 174 of Michigan's hate crimes were referred to as "anti-black" while 87 where referred to as "anti-white." This is a state where only 14% of Michigan is black/African American.

Hate crimes aren't the best barometer.

More accurate numbers to look at would be white on black crime vs black on white crime. Those numbers are hard to find and trust, as the media won't touch it, and the people who do work with the numbers often have a racist agenda.

One study by the Department of Justice in 1993 said that 90% of the victums of interracial crime are white. According to data in that report, adjusted on a per capita basis, blacks are committing more than 50 times the number of violent racial crimes of whites.

[illmatic774]

With the African Americans yelling out, when a white jogger runs by them, that he is running for his life because someone stole his car. I'm sorry, but I think saying such things fuel racial indifference and intolerance. Unfortunately, I would have to say there are obviously xenophobes in Detroit - just as much or, maybe, more than the suburbs.

With the commentary at the beginning of the video and all the graphs of where shootings most likely occur and whatnot, you think this would provide some insight. But what it really is is just another "Stay the fudge away from da D or you'll get shot the fudge up" BS film. They can say what the hell they want when they're in large numbers, and especially in the security of their car. And if anybody wanted to retaliate with a nasty comment of their own, you might be lookin' down the barrel of a gun. They're nothing but pussies.

[RustTown]

Hate crimes aren't the best barometer.

More accurate numbers to look at would be white on black crime vs black on white crime. Those numbers are hard to find and trust, as the media won't touch it, and the people who do work with the numbers often have a racist agenda.

One study by the Department of Justice in 1993 said that 90% of the victums of interracial crime are white. According to data in that report, adjusted on a per capita basis, blacks are committing more than 50 times the number of violent racial crimes of whites.

I'm confused about that last part of your post. Could you explain it better, specifically about what you mean as "violent racial crimes?"

It would be great to see detailed crime states for Detroit, but the DPD does a very poor job (and probably purposefully) of making them available. The department needs to be more transparent, and that's an understatement.

[dtown]

i like to read the comments on that video, you can tell between the good people who live in Detroit, and the gangsta wannabes.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

I'm confused about that last part of your post. Could you explain it better, specifically about what you mean as "violent racial crimes?"

It would be great to see detailed crime states for Detroit, but the DPD does a very poor job (and probably purposefully) of making them available. The department needs to be more transparent, and that's an understatement.

Interracial crimes are where the perp and the victum are different races. Violent crime is robbery, rape, assault, murder. Since there are fewer blacks in the United States than Whites, to get a clear pictures we need to adjust the numbers, and once we do that, blacks end up being 50 times more likely to commit a violent crime against a white than vice-versa.

you can tell between the good people who live in Detroit, and the gangsta wannabes.

Indeed. It's always obvious.

* If you're curious why I'm even in this thread, I have family in Troy, Grosse Pointe, and Bloomfield Hills so I've been to the area a few times. The fears of the people out in the suburbs are hardly unfounded, they live in some of the safest cities in United States while being next door to one of the most dangerous. Hopefully perception will change as the minority populations of the suburbs grow and they don't see an increase in crime.

[RustTown]

* If you're curious why I'm even in this thread, I have family in Troy, Grosse Pointe, and Bloomfield Hills so I've been to the area a few times. The fears of the people out in the suburbs are hardly unfounded, they live in some of the safest cities in United States while being next door to one of the most dangerous. Hopefully perception will change as the minority populations of the suburbs grow and they don't see an increase in crime.

Thanks for explaining. BTW, I meant unfounded in that blacks have much more to be worried about in being targeted just because of their ethnicity that whites. Again, anyone should be a bit more wary of their surroundings in much of Detroit for the sole fact that crime is higher. But, I'm talking specifically hate crimes, which leave no question as to why they were committed. I'm just saying that the issue is much more complicated than many (particularly those in "safe" areas) believe it to be (i.e. blacks are out to get whites because of their ethnicity). My only point was that if anything, the generalization, which is still a poor generalization as hate crimes are veryrare, anyway, it's the other way around. Thanks for the interesitng discussion, Moon. Sometimes, these things tend to have a way of going sour, and quick.

[dunveth]

"...blacks end up being 50 times more likely to commit a violent crime against a white than vice-versa."

Source for this number?

[hudkina]

LMich, maybe since you are African American yourself, you don't notice the amount of racism that exists in Detroit, but a white person in Dexter-Linwood is going to be singled-out in the same fashion a black person in Livonia is. "Whites" aren't any more isolationistic than blacks or any other ethnic or racial group.

[Phizzy]

"...blacks end up being 50 times more likely to commit a violent crime against a white than vice-versa."

Source for this number?

Like moonshield wrote, the numbers are hard to come by. But, here is an example.

Crimes of violence, robbery, and assault, from 2004:

Of the 732,680 white victims of crimes of violence (including rape and sexual assault), 19.9% of the time the offender was black.

Of the 168,660 black victims of crimes of violence (again, including rape and sexual assault), 1.7% of the time the offender was white.

So, there were appoximately 145,803 black-on-white crimes of violence, and only appoximately 2,867 white-on-black crimes of violence.

Of the 155,170 white victims of robbery, 47.3% of the time the offender was black.

Of the 33,520 black victims of robbery, 0.0% of the time the offender was white.

So, there were appoximately 73,395 black-on-white robberies, and nearly 0 white-on-black robberies.

Of the 564,790 white victims of assault, 12.8% of the time the offender was black.

Of the 125,470 black victims of assault, 2.2% of the time the offender was white.

So, there were appoximately 72,293 black-on-white assaults, and only approximately 2,760 white-on-black assaults.

Murders, from 1976 thru 2004:

Black-on-white murder numbers are much higher than white-on-black murder numbers, especially amongst strangers.

[HolidayInnExpress]

From my observation I believe that African Americans treat African Americans much worse than they treat white Americans. I think that such was historically conditioned as for centuries black life has been devalued in this nation relative to white life. Historically black and black violence was not treated equally in courts as black on white violence. African Americans could take out their frustrations on other African Americans, historically, but not whites. This was true for centuries and up until very recently, when the OJ Simpson trial revealed that the era had come to an end, which upset whites and excited blacks. However, by such time it had already become part of the African American culture to treat black humanity with less respect than white humanity. All one has to do is look at the black on black crime data for proof.

I think that if most white people were treated by African Americans the way that African Americans treat each other, whites would feel that the relative bad treatment (relative to how we treat each other as whites), would make many of us come away feeling like the treatment was due to us being white. My wife is a very dark skinned African American. She would often tell me the verbal abuse she would get from other African Americans for being dark. No doubt that had these African Americans who verbally abused her for being dark seen me at the time, they would have verbally abused me for being white. It

[RustTown]

LMich, maybe since you are African American yourself, you don't notice the amount of racism that exists in Detroit, but a white person in Dexter-Linwood is going to be singled-out in the same fashion a black person in Livonia is. "Whites" aren't any more isolationistic than blacks or any other ethnic or racial group.

I respectfully, and strongly disagree. History and even recent history has shown blacks in America to be measurably more willing to lived in a mixed society than whites in America, in general. Sure, you'll find isolationist on both sides, blacks are far more accepting and tolerant of mixed environment than vice versa, on a whole. One needs to look no further than many historically black instutitions to see that in even these institutions/organizations, different enthic groups and people are not only tolerated but accepted. I know it's not a PC thing to say, but in everything from voting to historically black colleges, blacks have been more accepting of, and open to, whites and other enthic groups than vice versa. If you want to talk about isolationist minority groups you can name off different Asian enthicities as a whole, but African Americans, in general, are one of the least isolationist of any group. This has been by necessity and circumstance. Whites, as a whole, can afford to isolate themselves and not feel the negative effects of this as greatly as many minority groups. Many minority groups simply can not afford that separation and isolation, and African Americans are one not of those groups.

HolidayInn,

You've hit up on some very good points. Some of which I've tried to get at, especially the point of how much more harsh blacks generally treat it other than they do non-blacks. And, hate crimes barred, it's a big and irresponsible leap to say or imply that the numbers represent more blacks targeting whites because of their race.

[Ark]

This has been by necessity and circumstance. Whites, as a whole, can afford to isolate themselves and not feel the negative effects of this as greatly as many minority groups. Many minority groups simply can not afford that separation and isolation, and African Americans are one of those groups.

That's 100% true. You just said it yourself. You've set up the argument that blacks are more accepting and tolerant of whites than vice versa, but now you admit it's not because they want, but because they have to. That doesn't mean they are as you said right here:

blacks are far more accepting and tolerant of mixed environment than vice versa

Simply because blacks are more willing to move into white areas proves one simple fact: they need jobs, good school districts & better public services than those offered in their current "all black" area. I don't see how that automatically means they are "more tolerant."

it's a big and irresponsible leap to say or imply that the numbers represent more blacks targeting whites because of their race.

And do you think it is just as big and irresponsible a leap to make the assumption that if a white person attacks a black person then it's automatically because of race? The fact is "hate crime" is skewed data. When a white person attacks a black person it is usually declared a hate crime, but when a black person attacks a white person it is only declared a hate crime under certain circumstances. The white on black vs. black on white is much more reliable and doesn't favor your argument.

[RustTown]

You know I obviously meant "not one of those groups," especially considering my past sentences. It was a typo.

And, you obvioulsy don't know what a hate crime is. A hate crime is a very easy to define as it's ONLY called a hate crime is racial slurs are written or said during the crime. It has nothing to do with the someone's descretion. When a white person attacks a black person it is not usually declared a hate crime. Hate crimes leave not descretion. It either is or isn't, as the rule for prosectuting them are VERY strict.

I'd really hope you'd read more and do your research. Seriously. This discussion was going so well, and remaining civil. Please, don't change that direction.

[Ark]

You know I obviously meant "not one of those groups," especially considering my past sentences. It was a typo.

I don't know what you're talking about please be more specific. In which sentence did you mean to include "not one of those groups," and why would I go by what you've previously said? I go by what you say.

And, you obvioulsy don't know what a hate crime is. A hate crime is a very easy to define as it's ONLY called a hate crime is racial slurs are written or said during the crime.

And you've obviously never seen a hate crime in progress. As a pre-law student who is currently working in a criminal justice internship I know that there are cases in which a white person attacks a black person and that is listed by the courts as a hate crime in the records.

I'd really hope you'd read more and do your research. Seriously. This discussion was going so well, and remaining civil. Please, don't change that direction.

Did I cuss you out? No. I am being civil - I guess I can do like you've done and not address the other persons statistical findings and simply say the words "I respecially disagree." Is that more civil to you? You saying I haven't done my research and attacking my civility even though there is no merit to do such things proves you are the one trying to put this conversation in a negative direction.

[Ark]

Oh and speaking of civility. Why has this topic been allowed to stay open for as long as it has? You're trying to prove, a rather intolerant view in my opinion, that white people are more prone towards violence against African Americans when the original intent of this topic was about population loss in Detroit.

What does the issue of white violence against minorities have to do with this topic? Shouldn't the discussion be aimed towards Detroit's economic recovery as opposed to which races beat up other races more often? I ask you because, it appears, you're a moderator.

[RustTown]

No, you turned this into that. My issue with my original post is that on a whole, blacks are more willing to live amongst whites, than the other way around. This even extends into politics (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/13/AR2006041301776.html). I don't mind you challenging my view, but at least attack it head on instead of parsing my words, and getting hung up on semantics. My view is not popular or PC, but it's one of many views. I haven't attacked anyone else, and I'd hope you wouldn't either. You don't even have to like or accept my view. I'm not even looking for that. You have 9 posts, here, either all here or one in the thread about crime. Don't pretend that you don't have an agenda. There are plenty of other great threads here.

BTW, I'm not a moderator. I haven't looked through this yet, but this would also be a pretty helpful resource for this discussion (http://www.civilrights.org/campaigns/brown/civil_rights.pdf)

[Ark]

No, you turned this into that. My issue with my original post is that on a whole, blacks are more willing to live amongst whites, than the other way around. This even extends into politics (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/13/AR2006041301776.html). I don't mind you challenging my view, but at least attack it head on instead of parsing my words.

BTW, I'm not a moderator.

I apologize for the moderator comment. I'm new to the board and assumed the green in your SN meant you were a mod. Then I went to the index page and found the list of mods and realized you weren't one.

So your assumption, which is very off, is that i'm negatively attacking you due to my using your words incorrectly. If this stems back to your exclusion of the statement about "not one of those groups," then I still don't understand where you are coming from. If I misinterpreted one of your statements then you might as well enlighten me as to which statement that was.

What i've gotten from your statements is the following, please correct me if this isn't what you've said: African Americans are willing to live in white neighborhoods because of the poor conditions of black neighborhoods. And what i'm saying is that this doesn't prove in anyway that African Americans are more tolerant towards white Americans. If the grass is greener on the other side then you're going to live there - even if it's with people you don't like.

[Ark]

You have 9 posts, here, either all here or one in the thread about crime. Don't pretend that you don't have an agenda. There are plenty of other great threads here.

Talk about being negative. Now you're saying I have an agenda? All I did was disagree with what you've said and simply reiterated something you've already said in one of your posts, which contradicts your argument, and now your attacking me and calling me uncivil, not doing research, telling me to go to one of the other threads here & now saying I have an agenda. Who's being negative here?

I was browsing this board due to my strong interest in urban planning and reforming Detroit. I'm not going to go around replying on loads of threads yet because i'm still learning the ropes about urban planning. Actually, I would have only had one post on this thread if it wasn't for you constantly trying to bait me back by making false claims and saying that i'm being "negative," and now you say I have an agenda and you don't expect for me to keep coming to this thread now and posting?