A large downtown Casino will revitalize Pittsburgh!

[bradsp]

-Mt Vernon Baltimore sounds like a place I would live. I looked up pictures and I am amazed. Its too bad the streets are empty at night. Do people want a little night life? In my own community the older people were suspicious of our request to zone the coffee shop hours to 10pm. One fella at our neighborhood group asked suspiciously, "why are they drinking coffee that late at night, what are they doing over their?"

-Downcity has its problems and it will take time to fix some of its problems. Many yuppie lofts formed in Downcity so the density should have been there but it still is not and this is why...

First off Providence bleeds placefulness beauty and vitality. The tight city of distinct neighborhoods is at the right scale - including Downcity. Before Downcity could even have a chance to have people living their speculators and luxury apartment/loft developers moved in. Organic growth never even had a chance in Downcity. Downcity seems to have moved form poor to wealthy and has bypassed gentrification. The reason why Federal Hill feels organic is because it is being gentrified. Apparently the organic development that occurs due to gentrification is better than a select few that would decide the fate of Downcity.

So how did the mall affect the current state of Downcity being that Downcity apparently has problems that have nothing really to do with the PVD mall? The reasons already given in this thread still are correct however most importantly we have to look at the effect of big development, big roof thinking, overly planned communities has caused. Think Wall mart, sprawl, and cookie cutter unlivable communities with vinyl siding.

There is a big roof similar to the mall roof hanging over Westminster street in those ugly hanging lights. The lack of organic lower income serving diverse development can not take hold under Westminsters roof. The people that come to the mall must leave the mall and walk to Downcity in order for the pretentious Downcity fog to lift. The destructively wannabe elitist Downcity was created directly in response to the mall. Property owners and developers could not attract the lower and middle class from the mall so they were forced to attract the conspicuous Boston consumer.

[ctman987]

Its being said in cities all across the country....first will come the residential and then the retail will follow. We will just have to see how cities with big downtown malls and cities that have gotten rid of theres or never had one do in attracting locally owned and operated shops.

Speaking in general terms many people the shops we all want in our downtowns but many of them dont open them in the downtown of our cities but in the suburbs because they are worried about the current struggling retail market, crime and parking. We need to get people to see downtowns as a trendy hip place that can support these stores. The next town over to Hartford is West Hartford (which in my opinion should be part of Hartford but thats a story for another time). Anyway West Hartford is home to West Hartford Center which is a mixed use New England village that has been around for years. It is home to hundreds of shops, restaurants, cafes, offices, the town hall, library and police station. Most of these stores are locally owned and operated, there is on street parking and lots in the back of buildings. Down the road they are constructing Blue Back Square which is an addition to the center. This will include luxury condos, retail space, office space, a hospital branch office and a Whole Foods. People will open a store there but not downtown and it is hard to watch. All small and mid sized cities must work to make themselves more appealing and make city life more appealing so these independant shops open up in downtown Providence, Hartford, Buffalo, Albany, Baltimore, etc.

[runawayjim]

Its being said in cities all across the country....first will come the residential and then the retail will follow. We will just have to see how cities with big downtown malls and cities that have gotten rid of theres or never had one do in attracting locally owned and operated shops.

Speaking in general terms many people the shops we all want in our downtowns but many of them dont open them in the downtown of our cities but in the suburbs because they are worried about the current struggling retail market, crime and parking. We need to get people to see downtowns as a trendy hip place that can support these stores. The next town over to Hartford is West Hartford (which in my opinion should be part of Hartford but thats a story for another time). Anyway West Hartford is home to West Hartford Center which is a mixed use New England village that has been around for years. It is home to hundreds of shops, restaurants, cafes, offices, the town hall, library and police station. Most of these stores are locally owned and operated, there is on street parking and lots in the back of buildings. Down the road they are constructing Blue Back Square which is an addition to the center. This will include luxury condos, retail space, office space, a hospital branch office and a Whole Foods. People will open a store there but not downtown and it is hard to watch. All small and mid sized cities must work to make themselves more appealing and make city life more appealing so these independant shops open up in downtown Providence, Hartford, Buffalo, Albany, Baltimore, etc.

we don't have much in the suburbs but big box... like warwick, north attleboro, and seekonk... all suburban strip mall big box hell (with warwick being where satan resides).

there's nothing similar to that west hartford center. but there's a lot of places in CT that are like that. branford's center of town is full of independent shops. mystic has that olde mystick village by the aquarium. guilford's center has a bunch of those shops, including a great small local grocery store that makes great sandwiches. old saybrook is similar as well. a lot of the towns on the shoreline are like that, at least the ones east of new haven. west of new haven, you end up with a lot of national chains (like in fairfield, with victoria's secret, banana republic, and borders all on main street). new haven actually seems to have a lot of local independent shops still doing pretty well around the green (the broadway area was sold out by yale to national chains, although the B&N yale bookstore is nice, and cutler's is still doing awesome).

we're starting to see some stores open up in downtown providence. the climate down there is getting better, regardless of the mall. i think the new residential is a catalyst for it. there's a lot of new stores adn a lot of coming soon signs.

[ctman987]

There is a lot of sprawl in Greater Hartford.....the area can also say it is home to the largest retail area in the northeast which is the Buckland Hills shopping area in Manchester and South Windsor. Some towns in Greater Hartford have no room for growth, others do and are chopping up forrests for new development like its going out of style. There are though some places like West Hartford Center that are succesfull mixed use places that were not really intentionally made and then there are lifestyle centers sprouting up ...many of which promise housing also in an area that is full of sprawl meaning walking places would be hard and it wouldnt be that pretty.

[runawayjim]

There is a lot of sprawl in Greater Hartford.....the area can also say it is home to the largest retail area in the northeast which is the Buckland Hills shopping area in Manchester and South Windsor. Some towns in Greater Hartford have no room for growth, others do and are chopping up forrests for new development like its going out of style. There are though some places like West Hartford Center that are succesfull mixed use places that were not really intentionally made and then there are lifestyle centers sprouting up ...many of which promise housing also in an area that is full of sprawl meaning walking places would be hard and it wouldnt be that pretty.

while i'll admit to not having been to manchester in a few years, i'd be willing to bet route 2 in warwick is a larger retail area with 2 malls next to each other and 4.5 miles of rt 2 being nothing but strip malls and big box retails, all the same stores that are in manchester (and the northeast is a large area... there's plenty of places that have more retail than manchester or warwick, if you ask me, like portions of jersey).

i'm not sure what your comment had to do with anything i said... but i think it's terrible taht forests are being torn down for new development (one reason i will never buy a new house). why not simply build up?

[Recchia]

The notion that people from the suburbs come to Providence Place and then leave is only partly true. If you have ever stood outside the mall and watched people coming in and out of it onto Francis Street you'd know that many people park there and then enjoy the entire downtown. Same thing with the pedestrian bridge through the Westin, how many people walk through that a day? These people are mixing the mall with the rest of downtown, not simply going to the mall then leaving in their cars for Warwick.

[bradsp]

The notion that people from the suburbs come to Providence Place and then leave is only partly true. If you have ever stood outside the mall and watched people coming in and out of it onto Francis Street you'd know that many people park there and then enjoy the entire downtown. Same thing with the pedestrian bridge through the Westin, how many people walk through that a day? These people are mixing the mall with the rest of downtown, not simply going to the mall then leaving in their cars for Warwick.

The Westin is a gash between downtown and the mall. There are very few people that walk that horrid tunnel to get to downtown. Many people can not even figure out how to get from Providence Place to Downcity without circling the sketchy exo-freeway offramp. All this poor walkability was not an accident. Most people travelling the mall tunnel stay at the Westin or are teens that do not shop or live in downcity -- but are moving from the mall to the suburbs via the transit center at the edge of Downcity.

The tiny percentage of people that do go to downcity is inconsequential. The notion that people go to downcity from the mall is almost not true or worthy of mention in a discussion of the destructive impact of big roof development in downtowns.

[runawayjim]

The Westin is a gash between downtown and the mall. There are very few people that walk that horrid tunnel to get to downtown. Many people can not even figure out how to get from Providence Place to Downcity without circling the sketchy exo-freeway offramp. All this poor walkability was not an accident. Most people travelling the mall tunnel stay at the Westin or are teens that do not shop or live in downcity -- but are moving from the mall to the suburbs via the transit center at the edge of Downcity.

The tiny percentage of people that do go to downcity is inconsequential. The notion that people go to downcity from the mall is almost not true or worthy of mention in a discussion of the destructive impact of big roof development in downtowns.

i ask again, when was the last time you were in providence? both recchia and i currently live here and see the large amounts of people walking from the mall to downcity all the time.

there's no poor walkability like you say between downcity and the mall, only behind the mall, and who wants to walk that way anyways (unless you live in the 903, formerly jefferson place). it's actually quite easily walkable between downcity and the mall (which i consider to be part of downcity, especially now that the gap is being bridged with waterplace and gtech).

[Recchia]

They had to build a new escalator and new entrance at the Westin soley for people who use the skybridge to get from Fountain/Sabin St to the mall. This was just completed last year. The foot traffic is extremely high, I don't know what you're talking about really. And nevermind how many people now walk down Francis Street all the time, or use the underpass in Waterplace Park to get from (guess where) the mall to downcity.

[Lone Ranger]

The Westin is a gash between downtown and the mall. There are very few people that walk that horrid tunnel to get to downtown. Many people can not even figure out how to get from Providence Place to Downcity without circling the sketchy exo-freeway offramp. All this poor walkability was not an accident. Most people travelling the mall tunnel stay at the Westin or are teens that do not shop or live in downcity -- but are moving from the mall to the suburbs via the transit center at the edge of Downcity.

The tiny percentage of people that do go to downcity is inconsequential. The notion that people go to downcity from the mall is almost not true or worthy of mention in a discussion of the destructive impact of big roof development in downtowns.

You're right, I didn't walk that very skybridge this afternoon, and it wasn't crowded with people like I thought it was. Adolescents, yuppie and hipster types, power suits, reg'lar middle class Americans, soccer moms with their brood in tow, I didn't see any of that. Silly me, what was I thinking before?

You're spouting nonsense, buddy. Pure crap, I'm sorry. Either you haven't been in the PPM in a long, long time, or your agenda is skewing your point of view, but the core of Providence is thriving and the PPM is the focal point of the new growth.

[GRDadof3]

You're spouting nonsense, buddy. Pure crap, I'm sorry. Either you haven't been in the PPM in a long, long time, or your agenda is skewing your point of view, but the core of Providence is thriving and the PPM is the focal point of the new growth.

Can we tone down the rhetoric a bit. Thanks guys.

[bradsp]

They had to build a new escalator and new entrance at the Westin soley for people who use the skybridge to get from Fountain/Sabin St to the mall. This was just completed last year. The foot traffic is extremely high, I don't know what you're talking about really. And nevermind how many people now walk down Francis Street all the time, or use the underpass in Waterplace Park to get from (guess where) the mall to downcity.

I think we are losing site of the discussion a bit with the emotion we have for our cities. This is the design forum so we should be able to gauge walkability. A new urbanism sticky thread is at the start of this forum and the principles hold true when discussing Downcity. Just because you can walk from point a to point b does not mean it is walkabe. For example the freeway between Federal Hill and downtown hurts the walkability and is another gash -- it does discourage pedestrian traffic. A Walmart or "sell all" shop at the edge of any self contained neighborhood like Downcity is destructive so I am surprised some people really feel the downtown mall is good for surrounding neighborhoods.

The underpass in Waterplace Park is an exception because it is superbly walkable however it is a out of the way to go to downcity and hard for people to navigate. The escalator being mentioned is barely up to code. It is much too narrow and personally I feel I am being squeezed out of the tunnel and plopped in a placeless expance that certainly does not lead to Downcity in any considerate way. There would need to be some type of fill between the Westin and Westminster instead of parking lots and the big avis/budget car garage and sketchy pedestrian unfriendly intersections. Walking down Francis is ok but crossing the high speed exo-freeway offramp, aka Memorial Blvd, is not for the faint of heart and definitely would not qualify for walkable because that setup is for pass through freeway traffic going to College Hill. Memorial Blvd. is pretty near a downtown freeway when walkablity is considered. The unfriendly pedestrian labyrinth between the mall and downcity can be walked but it is not "walkable" and it is outrageous to suggest that mall people are visting downcity shops or are encouraged to do so.

I moved from Providence eight months ago. I was in Providence four months. I stayed at the Biltmore on the "edge" of Downcity for eight days. While I was there I reassessed the progress and current state of the city. Bear in mind that Benefit was my old neighborhood and Downcity was where I spent my time (not College Hill) so I am keenly familiar with day to day Downcity life. I was not a tourist or a Waterfire visitor but someone actually part of the community affected by the mall.

Please remember that I love Providence as much as anyone on this list, if not more, but I think it is important that Providence rightfully be understood as a case study for the effects of big roof development. My current neighborhood is a perfect new urban neighborhood threatened by a similar big roof. Providence urbanists really need to recognize their issues because others draw on their experience and are seeking understanding and not Urbanist PR.

Brad

[runawayjim]

the intersection of francis and memorial is supposed to be re-worked as part of the westin project.

i don't think anyone said that the mall is good for all the neighborhoods, but it is good for downcity. i regularly see people moving between downcity and the mall when i'm in the area. i live in providence, i am not a tourist or waterfire visitor, which you are seeming to imply. this is why i don't understand what you are talking about when you say that there are not a ton of people regularly going from downtown to the mall and vice versa. the mall brings people downtown. many of those people simply use the mall for parking (because they can take 3 hours downtown and park for only $1) and many of those people just go to the mall. but that doesn't mean that it detracts from downcity life. in about a year, there will be 2 new residential projects ready to be filled with residents. people who will live full time downtown. those people will support the downtown area as well as the mall, but that doesn't mean that the mall is only seeing people come to the mall and then leave.

yes, the highway kills walkability, but many cities have this same problem, especially the smaller more densely populated cities of the northeast (new york is the exception, but new york was planned ground up).

also, you call downcity self-contained. i fail to see that. it lacks 2 important features of a self contained neighborhood... namely a grocery store and a pharmacy. in order to get those, you have to leave the neighborhood. that's not self contained.

also, i'm failing to see how the mall in providence can even be compared to a casino in pittsburgh. while it's "big roof" development, it doesn't necessarily have to be an all inclusive casino with it's own hotel, restaurants, entertainment, etc like the ones in CT. in fact, a casino with gaming tables, slots, some bars, and a restaurant or 2 will not hurt the downtown area of a major city, unless that downtown area lacks good restaurants and bars. if i'm going out to eat, i woudln't want to go to the casino. if i'm gambling, i'd go to the casino and probably have dinner there, but i wouldn't need everything else. in a city that has a lot of restaurants, hotels, and bars, that stuff wouldn't be needed in the casino because people can easily get to them, especially if the casino is nearby all that. how does this compares to the providence place mall which is almost entirely shopping? the restaurants in the mall all have sidewalk access, with the exception of dave and busters and the food court. the mall has a movie theatre, but i think it's a fine place for one because you're not gonna find much room elsewhere in the downtown area for one. same goes for the imax. dave and busters could be argued to be the only real detriment to downtown. also, the mall has at least one local store... oop (which i would like to see open a space downtown as the thayer st location closed) and a local chain... newbury comics. it's not entirely detrimental to local shops (which are difficult to run in the downtown area right now). but the restaurants in the mall do not detract from the thriving providence restaurant scene, if that's part of what you're trying to say. while the suburbanites go to those places because they know the names, the urbanites of providence tend to go to the providence restaurants, which are all doing pretty well.

[Recchia]

Brad I get what you're saying but I fail to see how a pedestrian only overpass and escalator (albeit a little narrow) is not 'walkable.' It doesn't get much more walkable than that.

[runawayjim]

Brad I get what you're saying but I fail to see how a pedestrian only overpass and escalator (albeit a little narrow) is not 'walkable.' It doesn't get much more walkable than that.

something i should have added... i went to a PC game at the dunk a few times and we've eaten at a place in the mall. the skybridge was full of people walking between the 2 or jsut going to wander around downcity.

[Lone Ranger]

and it is outrageous to suggest that mall people are visting downcity shops or are encouraged to do so.

Are they encouraged (by the design) to do so? Well, that's one question. But do they? That's another.

Obviously my "emotion" disqualifies me from answering either question. But we've got a handful of people here saying that the PPM, besides being a mall, functions admirably as a jumping-off point for people who want to visit the city, and you alone saying that nobody who goes to the Mall has any other purpose in the city.

I'll let folks judge for themselves.

[TheGerbil]

You're spouting nonsense, buddy. Pure crap, I'm sorry. Either you haven't been in the PPM in a long, long time, or your agenda is skewing your point of view, but the core of Providence is thriving and the PPM is the focal point of the new growth.

Let's all try to be polite here. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and this is supposed to be a place for friendly discussions.

Thanks.

[Lone Ranger]

One moderator intervention wasn't enough?

Look, I'm not trying to be inflammatory here, but GRDadof3 already stepped in with a polite warning. He cited the same paragraph. Do you wish me to remove the paragraph? I'll do so immediately.

[TheGerbil]

One moderator intervention wasn't enough?

Look, I'm not trying to be inflammatory here, but GRDadof3 already stepped in with a polite warning. He cited the same paragraph. Do you wish me to remove the paragraph? I'll do so immediately.

Sorry, I did not see the other moderator's warning. I must have missed it in the lengthy thread.

[GRDadof3]

Someone in the GR subforum said this about casinos in a downtown setting, that pretty much sums it up for me:

"IF a casino was willing to:

have a zero setback building

be pedestrain friendly

have clocks on the walls

have transparent windows so you would know what the outside world looked like

NOT have any buffets & or food courts

NOT require an extreme amount of space for parking

NOT have any nickel, dime, or quarter slots

have a high percentage of card game tables & a low percentage of slots

donate a percentage of the house to local beautification projects.....

I might consider the idea."

[runawayjim]

Someone in the GR subforum said this about casinos in a downtown setting, that pretty much sums it up for me:

"IF a casino was willing to:

have a zero setback building

be pedestrain friendly

have clocks on the walls

have transparent windows so you would know what the outside world looked like

NOT have any buffets & or food courts

NOT require an extreme amount of space for parking

NOT have any nickel, dime, or quarter slots

have a high percentage of card game tables & a low percentage of slots

donate a percentage of the house to local beautification projects.....

I might consider the idea."

that's basically how i feel about a casino in downtown... although i don't mind the slots or quarter slots... i do think the minimum slot should be quarter though.

i don't have an issue if they have their own food court, but it shouldn't be anything spectacular, just a place for gamblers to get some decent quick food. it should have a small bar, because god forbid you gamble without free drinks. and that's it.

i don't understand the clocks on the walls... although it'd be really neat if all the walls were syncronized clocks covering all the walls.

parking will be necessary, but that can be accomplished with a parking garage adjacent to the building, but not one that takes up an entire city block.

and any casino should be donating a percentage to the local government for certain projects as well as an additional percentage for the police and for gambling addiction help.

[Bill Mocarsky]

Someone in the GR subforum said this about casinos in a downtown setting, that pretty much sums it up for me:

"IF a casino was willing to:

have a zero setback building

be pedestrain friendly

have clocks on the walls

have transparent windows so you would know what the outside world looked like

NOT have any buffets & or food courts

NOT require an extreme amount of space for parking

NOT have any nickel, dime, or quarter slots

have a high percentage of card game tables & a low percentage of slots

donate a percentage of the house to local beautification projects.....

I might consider the idea."

Most casinos are designed so you will not be distracted by anything outside the casino. That includes the passing of time. It is not in the best interest of the casino for you to notice that the sun is rising which may evoke thoughts of how much of your childs college fund you've gambled away.

[bradsp]

Most casinos are designed so you will not be distracted by anything outside the casino. That includes the passing of time. It is not in the best interest of the casino for you to notice that the sun is rising which may evoke thoughts of how much of your childs college fund you've gambled away.

Malls use similar tactics. A downtown main street type city experience is destroyed by malls and casinos. An excellent 800page picture book called "The Harvard Design School Guide to Shopping" gives you a decent foundation in how people interact with cities and how and why malls are developed. The whole business of mall design is very shady -- just as shady as casino design. Placement of casinos, malls and big boxes like Wal-Mart’s all kill new urbanism.

This brings us back to the issue of a downtown mall in Providence. From a new urban perspective the mall in downtown Providence should be recognized as a catastrophe. I understand that people want to make the best of the situation but ignoring the situation is destructive to both the future of Providence and other communities.

The old school urbanist seems to repeat how sprawl is bad and downtowns are good. With this simple thinking the bar is set way to low and makes for ugly, unlivable design. I would go as far as saying that traditional urbanist thinking brings suburban values to downtown.

The Harvard Design School Guide to Shopping

Product Details

* Paperback: 800 pages

* Publisher: Taschen (April 2002)

* Language: English

* ISBN: 3822860476

[runawayjim]

Malls use similar tactics. A downtown main street type city experience is destroyed by malls and casinos. An excellent 800page picture book called "The Harvard Design School Guide to Shopping" gives you a decent foundation in how people interact with cities and how and why malls are developed. The whole business of mall design is very shady -- just as shady as casino design. Placement of casinos, malls and big boxes like Wal-Mart

[Jerry2]

-- First off Providence bleeds placefulness beauty and vitality. The tight city of distinct neighborhoods is at the right scale - including Downcity. [i]Before Downcity could even have a chance to have people living their speculators and luxury apartment/loft developers moved in. Organic growth never even had a chance in Downcity. Downcity seems to have moved form poor to wealthy and has bypassed gentrification[/i]. The reason why Federal Hill feels organic is because it is being gentrified. Apparently the organic development that occurs due to gentrification is better than a select few that would decide the fate of Downcity.

I couldn't have said this better...and he's not even a local.

There is a big roof similar to the mall roof hanging over Westminster street in those ugly hanging lights. The lack of organic lower income serving diverse development can not take hold under Westminsters roof. The people that come to the mall must leave the mall and walk to Downcity in order for the pretentious Downcity fog to lift. The destructively wannabe elitist Downcity was created directly in response to the mall. Property owners and developers could not attract the lower and middle class from the mall so they were forced to attract the conspicuous Boston consumer.