Creative Village

[JFW657]

22 minutes ago, AmIReal said:

I agree on the creative issue, but disagree on the village issue. Maybe a matter of expectations, but given a few thousand young people and places to hang out, I think they'll make their village into what works for them.

Re: CV not being "village-y", I was just speaking from an architectural POV. Nothing really village-like about the buildings. No cobblestone streets or shady lanes or interesting little back alleys, etc.

Downtown WP is village-y. Creative Village could be called Creative City at best.

Better to just call it UCF Downtown. Or maybe UCF Central.

BTW, I'm fine with the architecture for what it is though.

[Jvest55]

They should absolutely name it UCF Central or something. I can't think of one single reason an adult person out of college would want to go to Creative Village. 

[smileguy]

16 minutes ago, Jvest55 said:

They should absolutely name it UCF Central or something. I can't think of one single reason an adult person out of college would want to go to Creative Village. 

Orlando Philharmonic concerts for one more season  

[uncreativeusername]

2 hours ago, Jvest55 said:

They should absolutely name it UCF Central or something. I can't think of one single reason an adult person out of college would want to go to Creative Village. 

That seems short sighted - there may be no reason for a non-student to go to Creative Village now, but I really do see an interesting neighborhood  with tons of potential sprouting up. The influx of students should open up new dining and retail possibilities in the neighborhood.  Without being overly optimistic, having a college campus of 8,000 students is an objectively significant demographic bump downtown hasn't before experienced. Once a few interesting restaurants open, not to mention a significant urban park, why wouldn't this be a neighborhood people go to?

That being said, I agree that Creative Village is a gimmicky name, but I don't think the name should be so insular as to only refer to UCF either.  But it's a moot point anyway - not like the name will be changing any time soon.

[Jvest55]

Perhaps. Do you ever go to the UCF area right now? Check out those stores and restaurants on Alyafia? I can't say that I do. I am somewhat concerned of an immediate injection of 8,000 students into downtown. I am pretty bearish on the project in general. According to Downtown Orlando's website, that population increase accounts for 40% of the households who live in downtown. That's significant. I don't know what that's going to look like in the end. I think downtown should have focused on fixing the desolate store-fronts that have potential to be redeveloped first, similar to Park Ave in Winter Park. Certain areas of Magnolia St has that potential in my view. Additionally, Orange ave needs to ditch the bars and class up. That's how you create economic activity, not with indebted students.

 http://www.downtownorlando.com/newsroom/facts-statistics/#.XORT8JNKjGI

 

Edited May 21, 2019 by Jvest55

[codypet]

But but, Its wine down Wednesday! Where will me in my 20's find my future wife?  - me in 2013.

[AmIReal]

45 minutes ago, Jvest55 said:

I think downtown should have focused on fixing the desolate store-fronts that have potential to be redeveloped first, similar to Park Ave in Winter Park. Certain areas of Magnolia St has that potential in my view. Additionally, Orange ave needs to ditch the bars and class up. That's how you create economic activity, not with indebted students.

But fixing up the desolate store-fronts and ditching the bars to class up Orange Ave are not the duties or responsibility of the City. I agree that those thing need to be done, but that is up to the landowners of those properties. If there is money to be made, then it will happen. I remember saying, back in 2000, that the crappy bar scene would be priced out by better tenants as the downtown aged up... I'm still waiting. Unfortunately , a bar license is a license to print money and the downtown crowd seems to love cheap booze. I agree to your point that 8000 students is not going to improve that situation. Regardless, I love this CV project and wish it much success.

[Jernigan]

The retail is going to take care of itself.

[JFW657]

2 hours ago, AmIReal said:

But fixing up the desolate store-fronts and ditching the bars to class up Orange Ave are not the duties or responsibility of the City. I agree that those thing need to be done, but that is up to the landowners of those properties. 

Bingo.

[AmIReal]

2 hours ago, Jernigan said:

The retail is going to take care of itself.

I think you're right, but I wonder if the retail that is sought is the same sort of retail that I anticipate or will it be tattoo shops and vape stores... I do hear their putting in a kitty café which sounds interesting. 

1 hour ago, JFW657 said:

Bingo.

Oh sh!t… JFW agreed with me. I may need to reconsider my position... 

[JFW657]

32 minutes ago, AmIReal said:

Oh sh!t… JFW agreed with me. I may need to reconsider my position... 

So... do I have a history of disagreeing with you that I'm not aware of, or do you just disagree with everything I say to the point you feel the need to change your opinion if I agree with it? 

I not understand. 

[jliv]

Perhaps. Do you ever go to the UCF area right now? Check out those stores and restaurants on Alyafia? I can't say that I do. I am somewhat concerned of an immediate injection of 8,000 students into downtown. I am pretty bearish on the project in general. According to Downtown Orlando's website, that population increase accounts for 40% of the households who live in downtown. That's significant. I don't know what that's going to look like in the end. I think downtown should have focused on fixing the desolate store-fronts that have potential to be redeveloped first, similar to Park Ave in Winter Park. Certain areas of Magnolia St has that potential in my view. Additionally, Orange ave needs to ditch the bars and class up. That's how you create economic activity, not with indebted students.  http://www.downtownorlando.com/newsroom/facts-statistics/#.XORT8JNKjGI

 

 

 

There was a time Church Street Station/Rosie O’Grady’s was the one thing going on downtown. It was relentlessly touristy, especially with the addition of Church Street Market. It wasn’t until the mid 90’s, with Club Firestone, Big Bang, the Edge, and Yab Yum that downtown was claimed for the locals. So, the current bar scene is the legacy of that time, albeit with a much more downscale scene than the EDM scene I remember (I saw a lot of Harley-Davidson t-shirts there recently...SHUDDER). However, I’ve also seen some pretty cool places sprout up, like Bauhaus/Hanson’s Shoe Repair. A lot of similar-sized cities would kill for a scene like that, attractive to millennial singles. The problem is not the bar scene; but a lack of holistic planning to encourage an organic 24/7 culture. Dropping a bunch of beige mid-rise buildings onto parking lots isn’t going to cause that. There need to be more organised events like Light Up Orlando to draw people in.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[AmIReal]

9 hours ago, JFW657 said:

do I have a history of disagreeing with you that I'm not aware of, or do you just disagree with everything I say

Neither, I was just feeling mouthy last evening after a couple bourbons. Kindly disregard my previous post.

[smileguy]

17 hours ago, Jvest55 said:

Perhaps. Do you ever go to the UCF area right now? Check out those stores and restaurants on Alyafia? I can't say that I do. I am somewhat concerned of an immediate injection of 8,000 students into downtown. I am pretty bearish on the project in general. According to Downtown Orlando's website, that population increase accounts for 40% of the households who live in downtown. That's significant. I don't know what that's going to look like in the end. I think downtown should have focused on fixing the desolate store-fronts that have potential to be redeveloped first, similar to Park Ave in Winter Park. Certain areas of Magnolia St has that potential in my view. Additionally, Orange ave needs to ditch the bars and class up. That's how you create economic activity, not with indebted students.

 http://www.downtownorlando.com/newsroom/facts-statistics/#.XORT8JNKjGI

 

It's an important distinction to draw - 8,000 is the number of students that UCF says will be attending classes at that campus. The number doesn't represent the number of students living in Creative Village or attending classes exclusively at that campus.  There will be a lot of students coming and going, and it will be interesting to see how they split their time.  It would be interesting to be able to see how many of those students are 24/7, how many dwell downtown an hour or two between and before/after class, how many just come for class and leave, and other variations.

[codypet]

I'm assuming UCF will be shuttling people like they do the other campuses?

[Jvest55]

4 hours ago, jliv said:

 

There was a time Church Street Station/Rosie O’Grady’s was the one thing going on downtown. It was relentlessly touristy, especially with the addition of Church Street Market. It wasn’t until the mid 90’s, with Club Firestone, Big Bang, the Edge, and Yab Yum that downtown was claimed for the locals. So, the current bar scene is the legacy of that time, albeit with a much more downscale scene than the EDM scene I remember (I saw a lot of Harley-Davidson t-shirts there recently...SHUDDER). However, I’ve also seen some pretty cool places sprout up, like Bauhaus/Hanson’s Shoe Repair. A lot of similar-sized cities would kill for a scene like that, attractive to millennial singles. The problem is not the bar scene; but a lack of holistic planning to encourage an organic 24/7 culture. Dropping a bunch of beige mid-rise buildings onto parking lots isn’t going to cause that. There need to be more organised events like Light Up Orlando to draw people in.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Thanks for your insight, I wasn't aware of some of that. I looked up Light up Orlando, and they gave some supposed reasons for closing it down https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/os-xpm-1995-02-10-9502090859-story.html

9 minutes ago, codypet said:

I'm assuming UCF will be shuttling people like they do the other campuses?

Yes that's what I've read.

1 hour ago, smileguy said:

It's an important distinction to draw - 8,000 is the number of students that UCF says will be attending classes at that campus. The number doesn't represent the number of students living in Creative Village or attending classes exclusively at that campus.  There will be a lot of students coming and going, and it will be interesting to see how they split their time.  It would be interesting to be able to see how many of those students are 24/7, how many dwell downtown an hour or two between and before/after class, how many just come for class and leave, and other variations.

Yes it would be nice to figure out the exact number between both colleges, regarding how many students will actually live in downtown. 

[HankStrong]

This is why we need SunRail expansion between campuses

[AndyPok1]

@jliv nailed it.  DTO is immensely popular with millennial singles.  Virtually any similarly sized city would love to have the amount of local-concentrated nightlife.  I've never been to any other mid-size city that has the same claim unless it is tourism based (Nashville/Austin), or highly dependent on outside forces (home sports game).  Typically if there is a region or two of nightlife, it is varied and more neighborhood focused (Ybor in Tampa for example).

Is this viable long term?  Probably not.  But it means we don't have a 9-5 downtown and THAT is what sets us apart from most cities.

[Jvest55]

23 minutes ago, AndyPok1 said:

@jliv nailed it.  DTO is immensely popular with millennial singles.  Virtually any similarly sized city would love to have the amount of local-concentrated nightlife.  I've never been to any other mid-size city that has the same claim unless it is tourism based (Nashville/Austin), or highly dependent on outside forces (home sports game).  Typically if there is a region or two of nightlife, it is varied and more neighborhood focused (Ybor in Tampa for example).

Is this viable long term?  Probably not.  But it means we don't have a 9-5 downtown and THAT is what sets us apart from most cities.

I agree to a degree! They wouldn't have to remove the night life completely, but the ratio is probably like 95% nightlife 5% daytime economic activity. It's too skewed. There must be a balance. Are we really going to go 10, 20 more years until this is resolved. I had seen a plan for the revamping of Magnolia, but I can't find it anymore. If anyone knows where that PDF lives, that would be awesome...

[AndyPok1]

This is the question I always ask when this comes up and I've never really heard a good answer.  Without entirely changing the fabric of Orlando, what is this "daytime economic activity" you desire?  A good portion of those places that are bars are night are [surprisingly] good lunch places during the day that are busy from 11-2 with the office crowds.  The switchover happens during happy hour which generally keeps a decent amount of workers around from 4-7.

There's hundreds of people at the Lake and the History Center during the day, plus all the governmental and judicial activity (jury duty people need a place to eat!).  Our museums are clustered in their own park 3 miles north.  There's Sak and Mad Cow and the movie theatre as entertainment, not to mention DPAC and all the live music places.  The answer is typically retail, but what kind of retail is going to survive downtown rent?  We finally got our Walgreens (albeits sans pharmacy).  The only two things I've found interesting outside of a dream like an Urban Target is a bicycle store and a very small Ace Hardware.

It could just me being naive (and a drunk), but I don't know what this daytime and/or non-nightlife economic activity is.  What I do when I travel to random cities is I wander around and look and urban architecture and then find a beer and locally recommended food.

[dcluley98]

I don't know, DT is pretty vibrant around lunchtime with office workers. The only real gap is retail.  And we could do better with cultural/arts, but DPAC helped that some and there could be other similar art things going downtown. As others mention, the Arts/Museum Cluster at Loch Haven is a perfectly viable location, though I would prefer it downtown. People that go to museums are often one-time visitors seeking that specific thing or locals who stop by for rotating exhibits. Those people would likely make a specific day trip to the Loch Haven area to do that anyway.  

Andy beat me to it. 

[Jvest55]

1 hour ago, AndyPok1 said:

This is the question I always ask when this comes up and I've never really heard a good answer.  Without entirely changing the fabric of Orlando, what is this "daytime economic activity" you desire?  A good portion of those places that are bars are night are [surprisingly] good lunch places during the day that are busy from 11-2 with the office crowds.  The switchover happens during happy hour which generally keeps a decent amount of workers around from 4-7.

There's hundreds of people at the Lake and the History Center during the day, plus all the governmental and judicial activity (jury duty people need a place to eat!).  Our museums are clustered in their own park 3 miles north.  There's Sak and Mad Cow and the movie theatre as entertainment, not to mention DPAC and all the live music places.  The answer is typically retail, but what kind of retail is going to survive downtown rent?  We finally got our Walgreens (albeits sans pharmacy).  The only two things I've found interesting outside of a dream like an Urban Target is a bicycle store and a very small Ace Hardware.

It could just me being naive (and a drunk), but I don't know what this daytime and/or non-nightlife economic activity is.  What I do when I travel to random cities is I wander around and look and urban architecture and then find a beer and locally recommended food.

It's a good question. 

I believe the proper way to describe the economic activity that i'd like to see is one where you are not relying on the business crowd lunch time bum rush, but instead, a self sustaining downtown centre. There must be some higher level retail, such as a Zara, some fashion stores (not that I am in to it, but it's a requirement in my view), Cafes, bakeries, eateries, places to just walk around and window shop. Maybe there is a furniture store, such as Design Within Reach. Imagine a block where there are just wall to wall places to go inside and buy something in, wouldn't it be great?

I just walked Orange ave this afternoon after I went to the bank. There is literally NOTHING TO BUY that isn't food. I am not joking. It's a big problem and until the city starts encouraging more retail shopping that allows me to spend my money during the day then ... I just don't know. The issue won't be fixed.

Let's think what we have near us that might be close to what I am talking about... have you ever been to Downtown Mt. Dora? It's beautiful, but it's old a bit old fashion for us in here. For downtown Orlando, I imagine a more upscale version of that. Mt. Dora may not have the college bar scene, but they still benefit greatly in the evening by having a very vibrant downtown with lots of things to do at night besides getting smashed. It's a grown up town. The businesses are generating REVENUE more than just at lunch time, and can therefore afford their leases. The P&L for theses bars in downtown is not very impressive, how much do you think they make in the evening, during the 5 day work week? An immaterial amount, I bet. There is a better way, I believe! 

 

Anyway, I don't want to start gong off-topic but thanks for the constructive feedback. I hope some day this issue is addressed. 

[AndyPok1]

Higher level retail as you describe it will not work.  Zara and such want to be around other retailers for a scale at mass.  Our opportunity for something like that will be during the Sentinel property redevelopment.

Boutique retail, sure.  There are a handful.  One next to Walgreens, one on Central in the Publix plaza, one next to the ramen place on Summerlin.  

Cafes, bakeries, eateries?  Aren't those places to buy food?  I thought that's the issue.  Plus there's the french bakery in the plaza, the one connected to DoveCote, plus two Dunkins and a Starbucks, as well as Craft & Common and I think I'm missing one other one.  (Though I do think a fancy donut place could succeed).

I have not been to Mt Dora, but I have been to Sanford as well as many other small towns throughout the nation.  I agree, they have lovely downtowns.  That simply doesn't replicate to a massive city like Orlando though.  It works if it's your sole commercial district.  I can't name a single decent sized city that has anything like that.  We have a furniture store... Imperial is 2 miles up the road in Ivanhoe.  No one is gonna want to buy new patio set and deal with street parking or a parking garage if they don't have to.  With ample parking in a 2 mile radius, those types of stores simply won't locate downtown, nor in my opinion should they.  That's what Ivanhoe and Audubon and College Park are for.

Also, The Lodge and Casey's just celebrated I believe 15th and 20th anniversaries.  Pourhouse is getting close to 10 if not more.  They're doing something right.

[codypet]

12 minutes ago, AndyPok1 said:

Higher level retail as you describe it will not work.  Zara and such want to be around other retailers for a scale at mass.  Our opportunity for something like that will be during the Sentinel property redevelopment.

Boutique retail, sure.  There are a handful.  One next to Walgreens, one on Central in the Publix plaza, one next to the ramen place on Summerlin.  

Cafes, bakeries, eateries?  Aren't those places to buy food?  I thought that's the issue.  Plus there's the french bakery in the plaza, the one connected to DoveCote, plus two Dunkins and a Starbucks, as well as Craft & Common and I think I'm missing one other one.  (Though I do think a fancy donut place could succeed).

I have not been to Mt Dora, but I have been to Sanford as well as many other small towns throughout the nation.  I agree, they have lovely downtowns.  That simply doesn't replicate to a massive city like Orlando though.  It works if it's your sole commercial district.  I can't name a single decent sized city that has anything like that.  We have a furniture store... Imperial is 2 miles up the road in Ivanhoe.  No one is gonna want to buy new patio set and deal with street parking or a parking garage if they don't have to.  With ample parking in a 2 mile radius, those types of stores simply won't locate downtown, nor in my opinion should they.  That's what Ivanhoe and Audubon and College Park are for.

Also, The Lodge and Casey's just celebrated I believe 15th and 20th anniversaries.  Pourhouse is getting close to 10 if not more.  They're doing something right.

The boutique on Summerlin closed, and even when it was opened, she frequently told my friend the owner of the Crepe place, that she didn't make any money from that storefront.   

Andy's right about the patio furniture.  I sometimes wonder how many people even go to Leaders on Colonial much less if one place like that opened up.   What retail would work in an urban setting?  I've seen urban REI's, Ross TJMAXX, Home Depot.  Hell Raleigh has an urban Target.  The issue is if you're looking to open a retailer especially if you're a major chain, you probably would find a more friendly environment for you business on East Colonial and/or SODO, and have a traditional location instead of dealing with trying to pull something together downtown. 

[sunshine]

ahemm....Park Ave...