Providence Music Scene

[jencoleslaw]

There seems to me to be many older people bemoaning the loss of something that they really may not be all that interested in partaking in anymore (I'll single out Jen and ask, if there were a show every weekend by a band that you actually liked, would you go as often as you did when you were 20?).

absolutely. What i won't do is drive to Boston or Northampton every weekend. Just a few years ago (when Lupos moved to the strand probably) i would say that i was at Lupos at least once a month (although Jan and Feb are kind of dry months for touring so maybe not then) to see shows that now are going to Boston and Northampton. I wouldn't see the same band every weekend, btw, because i'm not a fangirl, i am a fan of music. But i look at Pollstar to see where my favorites are playing and its never Providence anymore. and while there may be a 'generational shift' i can say a lot of my friends from college are still living in Providence and the area and while they may have kids and grown up person jobs (!), they would still meet me out at Lupos to see Elvis Costello, or Lucinda Williams, or Gillian Welch or Aimee Mann or Marah or Wilco or Steve Earle or Son Volt, or...

Fans of live music are fans of live music. Doesn't matter your age. I have been to a lot of Wilco and Neko Case and Ryan Adams shows in the past two years around the country and the age range is between 10 years old (with parents of course) to mid 50's with the median probably mid-twenties.

I've been seeing live music shows since i was 16 and i'm a bit older than that now, and you could even say i'm a bit of a rock tourist--i will plan trips around shows in other cities and states and when traveling for business i will always check to see who is playing where. I haven't slowed down my intake of rock shows even though my metabolism has slowed. But, i have, since returning from VA last summer, found that there aren't too many shows to see and have been forced to go to boston, fall river (!) chicago, DC and NY to see bands which historically have played Lupos or one of the theatres here in town.

just like TF Green is an awesome place to fly out of because of its convenience, size, parking etc, Providence used to be a great place to see music. My now x husband used to take the train from Mystic to see shows at the Living Room (when it was at the Foundry), sleep at the train station and then take the train back to Mystic in time for work the next day, or hitch a ride with someone at the show. Friends from CT would drive up rather than deal with seeing the same show in NYC and even folks outside of boston would opt to come to Providence.

[matt]

There used to be a real balance of club/dance/rap venues and concert venues. I feel the balance has shifted.

I think there is another element besides the downtown transition that had its effect on the venue space, and that was the Station fire.

With all the negative attention the RI scene got after that, its no wonder bands skipped the region.

Would I attend as many shows as I used to? Maybe not, but in college I went to as many as 3 shows a week. Then again, I also was in the scene - I was in a band that headlined the Met and Lupos on a regular basis. As a musician, my arm doesnt need to be twisted to go to a show, especially if its in Providence (so close to home!).

AS220 was always a great springboard for musicians. I hope when the Dryfuss opens, that will continue and grow. But I do wish there were more venues locally.

Lupos was a great venue (just not acoustically). Its size was ideal for a national act to stop on the way to Boston - sometimes with little announcement.

[Garris]

There's a whole new crop of 20-somethings out there today and as a group, they are more interested in dance music, rap, and clubbing, not live rock shows

Good post Cotuit. My sister's friends from high school (who are in their mid-20's now) completely reflect this. Their first question when they visit here isn't "Where's the best live music," it's "Where's the most happening dance space?"

Also, I'm a little upset that someone as usually thoughful as Garris would marginalize these feelings as some form of NIMBY-ism... don't tell me I'm just being a nostalgic NIMBY.

I'm not marginalizing your feelings at all. I'm sure they are quite strongly felt. I'm just pointing out a bit of a similarity in tone, a referencing back to a high water mark that is being undone by (take your pick):

- The forces of gentrification

- (fill in the blank)____ people moving into the neighborhood

- People don't like/want (fill in the blank)______ anymore

- (fill in the blank) ______ isn't what it used to be

Look at this quote from Jim, "...we need music downtown still, otherwise downtown becomes the playground for the rich and uptight and the club kids. it shouldn't be that and if it becomes that, i'll never want to be down there..."

How is such a statement of judgement that fundamentally different from someone in Wayland Sq, for example, saying (as I've heard a million times), "The problem with Providence now is all of the yuppies and young professionals moving in demanding all of these restaurants and bars and clubs. This used to be a nice, quiet place with kids, five and dimes, and clothing stores and markets. If things continue like this, it'll be obvious this isn't a place meant for me and I'll take off."

In just my four years in NYC, a raft of revered music venues closed and a similar raft of welcomed new ones opened up. Places like Toad's Place in New Haven (which thrived, died, was reborn, thrived, and died in just my four years there and has certainly had its share of controversy) are the long lived exception as far as I've seen, not the rule (and they're surrounded by a college campus, so their environment is different).

So, really, how common is it for a music venue to consistently, without fluctuation, stay hip, relevant, and vibrant for 10, 20, 30 years or more?

- Garris

[Garris]

There used to be a real balance of club/dance/rap venues and concert venues. I feel the balance has shifted.

One thing people seem to be missing. During the Halcyon days, Providence was a destination for music junkies.

just like TF Green is an awesome place to fly out of because of its convenience, size, parking etc, Providence used to be a great place to see music.

I'm a big believer that nature abhors a vacuum.

If the pent up demand is there, if the audience is there, if the bands are there, then what, given the realities of the New Providence, are the solutions?

- Garris

[Cotuit]

Very good points Garris. Downtown wasn't the core destination spot back in the music scene heyday that it's becoming now. So by that token, the venues should probably be in areas like the West End or Valley/Olneyville. I'm feeling the West End more with the hip feel it has and strong local loyalty to places.

Why can't the live venues mix with the clubs on Richmond? That's the ideal location for the club/music district in my opinion. In my day (I don't know about now) that's what Lansdowne in Boston was like.

[matt]

Why can't the live venues mix with the clubs on Richmond? That's the ideal location for the club/music district in my opinion. In my day (I don't know about now) that's what Lansdowne in Boston was like.

I would love Providence to have its own Landsdowne St.

[runawayjim]

Good post Cotuit. My sister's friends from high school (who are in their mid-20's now) completely reflect this. Their first question when they visit here isn't "Where's the best live music," it's "Where's the most happening dance space?"

I'm not marginalizing your feelings at all. I'm sure they are quite strongly felt. I'm just pointing out a bit of a similarity in tone, a referencing back to a high water mark that is being undone by (take your pick):

- The forces of gentrification

- (fill in the blank)____ people moving into the neighborhood

- People don't like/want (fill in the blank)______ anymore

- (fill in the blank) ______ isn't what it used to be

Look at this quote from Jim, "...we need music downtown still, otherwise downtown becomes the playground for the rich and uptight and the club kids. it shouldn't be that and if it becomes that, i'll never want to be down there..."

How is such a statement of judgement that fundamentally different from someone in Wayland Sq, for example, saying (as I've heard a million times), "The problem with Providence now is all of the yuppies and young professionals moving in demanding all of these restaurants and bars and clubs. This used to be a nice, quiet place with kids, five and dimes, and clothing stores and markets. If things continue like this, it'll be obvious this isn't a place meant for me and I'll take off."

In just my four years in NYC, a raft of revered music venues closed and a similar raft of welcomed new ones opened up. Places like Toad's Place in New Haven (which thrived, died, was reborn, thrived, and died in just my four years there and has certainly had its share of controversy) are the long lived exception as far as I've seen, not the rule (and they're surrounded by a college campus, so their environment is different).

So, really, how common is it for a music venue to consistently, without fluctuation, stay hip, relevant, and vibrant for 10, 20, 30 years or more?

- Garris

i didn't mean that i don't think the rich and the club kids should be downtown... i meant that downtown in any city should be a melting pot of all sorts of people and moving/pushing/forcing out the music venues ruins that, especially a place with the history and impact on the city like lupos. every major city has a venue like that... new york has several, some of which are in financial trouble, others which are doing pretty well, and other which ended up like that bookstore (i think) that had a lot of back taxes built up (the one i'm thinking of is by NYU and owed a lot of back rent to the university, i can't for the life of me think of the name).

places like toads and lupos, while going through fluctuations as music changes have remained an important part of the city and should not be lost. i think many here will agree that the music scene can be officially declared dead if lupo's closes down for good, just like new haven's music scene if toad's were to close down.

[Cotuit]

Unless there is some demographic overwhelming RISD, Brown, PC, and even URI, I don't buy the argument that the scene is just different.

Actually, yes there has been a demographic shift. Nationally, colleges are becoming more female, I believe (off the top of my head without taking time to Google the actual figures) that women out number men in 4-year colleges nationally at this point. Locally, J&W has seen a big influx of Asian students and RISD has seen a dramatic shift towards women (a large majority of RISD students are female now) and Asian students, specifically Asian women, and largely from South Korea. Broadly, women aren't as into the live music scene as men, and Asian women are less so.

[runawayjim]

Actually, yes there has been a demographic shift. Nationally, colleges are becoming more female, I believe (off the top of my head without taking time to Google the actual figures) that women out number men in 4-year colleges nationally at this point. Locally, J&W has seen a big influx of Asian students and RISD has seen a dramatic shift towards women (a large majority of RISD students are female now) and Asian students, specifically Asian women, and largely from South Korea. Broadly, women aren't as into the live music scene as men, and Asian women are less so.

PC is something like 60% female and the incoming class has a TON of girls.

and you are correct... males tend to go to shows more often than females... we always commented about how the shows i went to (mostly jam bands) were sausage fests.

[Jerry2]

Now, Providence can choose to make itself attractive in other ways and I am certainly not going to say any one way I would come up with is better than what they choose. Really. But I do think that you have a situation where Providence was a destination and now it is not. And frankly I think that there was room for these places to coexist, easily, with rehabilitation.

This isn't just about Lupo's on Westminster. Obviously I understand that the Peerless renovation is more important to the city than protecting Lupo's at all cost. I brought it up mainly because of people giving the impression that noone hangs around Westminster now but that's ok because noone was around there before Cornish saved the day either. In fact people did hang around Westminster, and if the scene were embraced it could have been the funky urban retail/restaurant/venue mix that we all pine for. Cornish and the city went in another direction. One that may be better or may be worse or may be just different.

I couldn't agree more with everything that you said. I once thought that creating a nightclub district would work and I've re-established a different opinion. There is no room in Providence to successfully set up a nightclub district....it should have been integrated or should be integrated into downtown (the "center"of it all)

Garris, I usually agree with you on almost everything but this time...I think you are referring to people that don't necessarily like the path downtown is taking as nostalgic NIMBY's. It's unfair.

[Cotuit]

There is no room in Providence to successfully set up a nightclub district...

What are you talking about no room? The Jewelry District is one big surface lot.

Garris, I usually agree with you on almost everything but this time...I think you are referring to people that don't necessarily like the path downtown is taking as nostalgic NIMBY's. It's unfair.

I think people are taking what Garris is saying a little too literally and a little too personally. There is certainly a degree of NIMBYesque nostalgia to people bemoaning the loss of scene that peaked almost two decades ago. Things change, the market is for today's kids, if they want live venues, and have the money and numbers to support them, they will exist. If the numbers and the money are looking for dance clubs, that's what we'll get. You can't create a live music museum that celebrates 1992 and call it a scene.

[Cotuit]

absolutely. What i won't do is drive to Boston or Northampton every weekend.

Do you think your peers (I don't mean your social group, but people your age you don't know) who have moved to the suburbs and have kids and grown-up jobs and whatnot are going to drive to Providence for shows anymore than you'd drive to Nhampton or Boston? Be honest, you may be a big music fan, but how many of your contemporaries are actually (or would be) part of the scene if the scene were as active as it were 10 or 15 years ago? Its not your scene anymore, you said yourself there's all ages when you go, but the median is in its 20s. I won't be so gauche as to guess your age, but judging from the bands you listed, I feel safe surmising that you are beyond your mid-20s.

Jim has chimed in as a 20-something, but I think the scene Jim is into tends not to be the scene most others are bemoaning the loss of. Jim being more of a jam-band fan (judging by his avatar).

So where are the other 20-somethings? What do they want, is our scene really lacking, or has it left the previous generation behind?

[runawayjim]

Do you think your peers (I don't mean your social group, but people your age you don't know) who have moved to the suburbs and have kids and grown-up jobs and whatnot are going to drive to Providence for shows anymore than you'd drive to Nhampton or Boston? Be honest, you may be a big music fan, but how many of your contemporaries are actually (or would be) part of the scene if the scene were as active as it were 10 or 15 years ago? Its not your scene anymore, you said yourself there's all ages when you go, but the median is in its 20s. I won't be so gauche as to guess your age, but judging from the bands you listed, I feel safe surmising that you are beyond your mid-20s.

Jim has chimed in as a 20-something, but I think the scene Jim is into tends not to be the scene most others are bemoaning the loss of. Jim being more of a jam-band fan (judging by his avatar).

So where are the other 20-somethings? What do they want, is our scene really lacking, or has it left the previous generation behind?

i think she said it earlier... once a music fan, always a music fan. by music fan, i mean someone who is really into music and if you're really into music, the only way to get a real "fix" is live shows. so yes, people who are older (and i know many people like this in their 30's and 40's who fit this category) will drive from their suburban paradise and go into the city to see live music. i know a guy who lives near NYC (i think he's in jersey) who will drive to new haven to see certain bands. he's got kids. i've seen people take their kids to concerts because they love the music that much and want their kids to share in it.

i'm not your average jamband fan (and you are correct... the best band ever is my avatar). i actually love most music (rap/hip hop, country, today's pop, and that emo/neo-punk stuff i'm not really into). my music collection (and it's all CD's) covers just about every genre imagineable (even those that i just said i'm not as into). so i enjoy all sorts of live music, not just jam bands (although those are my favorite because you never know what you're gonna get like you do with pop music or classic rock bands doing the same setlist every concert). this summer i went to see tom petty and phil lesh at the tweeter center. trey anastasio from phish opened for both, but they were both very different crowds. big concerts like that are turning into what i consider the playground for the rich and uptight. tom petty is a great songwriter and vocalist and his band is pretty good. he put on a great show but this tour was what he sang about on his last dj album. last time i saw him, it was just a regular show (no 30th anniversary hoopla) and the crowd was much different. the funniest thing is watching people in their 50's wearing sport shirts tucked in and shiny shoes taking hits from a joint and giggling like they're being all badass.

the current crop of younger music fans are mostly into this new wave of indie type neo-punk and emo music (like death cab, modest mouse, saves the day, etc). that kind of music i'm not really a fan of (although death cab is pretty good). the other stuff that's become popular is that alt-folk/alt-country type stuff like ryan adams, who i think is awesome (and i wish he toured with phil lesh more often... although phil does do many of his songs when they tour). that rootsy rock is making a real comeback and i'm all for that. it can be seen on the indie scene and the jamband scene with a lot more jammy bluegrass and rock-a-billy type bands coming out. i think the last of the major tours died when phish broke up. there's a few bands that always do huge tours, like dave matthews, but that's a different scene altogether.

the music industry and scene as a whole is completely changing and i think we'll begin to see a lot of lesser known bands become bigger than the bands the industry wants us to see because of the internet and bands releasing free music to download. there's more indie labels starting up because distribution is easier. so i do think that we'll see changes and there will be more of a need for small venues (which is pretty much all we have right now). unfortunately, a lot of these smaller bands just aren't that great right now, and the big industry peopel aren't interested in good musicians, but rather people who will make money (which is crappy pop).

[Garris]

What are you talking about no room? The Jewelry District is one big surface lot.

Seriously! And this doesn't include the "Neutral Zone" of surface parking between downtown and the 195 land. I'm sure an inspiring music titan could figure out how do to a supercool venue in any of the vacant JD space near Richmond, on a surface lot in the "Parking District" (whose surface footage equals almost all of downtown!)... All of this assuming there's money to be made from a market that's there and waiting...

I think people are taking what Garris is saying a little too literally and a little too personally... You can't create a live music museum that celebrates 1992 and call it a scene.

Absolutely... And boy are you going to take hell for that last comment, BTW... Some of us were thinking it, you said it ...

So where are the other 20-somethings? What do they want, is our scene really lacking, or has it left the previous generation behind?

I think your pointing out the change in demographics (and tone) of college students is dead on as well. People I know in the college world (admissions folks, professors, etc.) say that the change in tenor, expectations, socioeconomics, focus, etc has been dramatic, in ways both good and bad...

Also, a lot of this music debate is relative to people's own interests and preferences. I know a woman who is a local native in her early 30's living in Pawtucket now who is a fan of music that likely is VERY different from what many here on the UP boards listen to (and definitely different from myself). She likes mostly of country-western music, Springstein-eque working class bands, and some jazz (she'll occasionally hit the Hi-Hat) and she goes to a LOT of concerts all over the place. She was just remarking last week that for her, she feels that the local live music scene has "never been better" and gushing about how she's seen more live music in the metro Providence/Boston area than ever before. She goes to about a concert every one or two weeks. A lot of these groups are ones I've never heard of (while, by contrast, I'm very familiar with all of the ones everyone has been talking about above).

It's all relative...

- Garris

[jencoleslaw]

i do not for one moment think that the lack of bands coming thru PVD has anything to do with people my age not wanting to drive into providence--as i said before, fans of live music are fans of live music regardless of their age and whether they have snot nosed kids at suburban homes or not.

In addition, there are plenty of bands that i listen to (like that emo crap) that the young whippersnappers are into now. The entire post Teen/College and barely post collegiate demographic isn't dumpy pants-wearing white ghetto kids into the hiphop and the extascy (damn, i don't even know how to SPELL it, that's how old i am) and the lightsticks at the strand. And there are plenty of bands whose members are in their thirties who have found great success in the college crowd.

the "scene" isn't what is playing on WPRO radio btw, it is usually a more underground, roots, singer/songwriter, band as family kinda thing, sacrificing for your art kind of deal, as folks who are actually into music will tell you. Assuming that the scene merely exists for 22 year olds is like saying art is only for people who can afford it. Simply not true and does a great disservice in my opinion.

So, i doubt that bands are skipping providence because twinks would rather dance the night away all hopped up on goof balls, but rather because the opportunities for 1200+ clubs simply aren't here because they've been turned into something else. that something else may have value, but it shouldn't for a minute DE-value the importance of a vibrant arts scene that includes live music as well as visual and performing arts.

[Cotuit]

i think she said it earlier... once a music fan, always a music fan. by music fan, i mean someone who is really into music and if you're really into music, the only way to get a real "fix" is live shows. so yes, people who are older (and i know many people like this in their 30's and 40's who fit this category) will drive from their suburban paradise and go into the city to see live music. i know a guy who lives near NYC (i think he's in jersey) who will drive to new haven to see certain bands. he's got kids. i've seen people take their kids to concerts because they love the music that much and want their kids to share in it.

How many people who were in their 20s in the early 90s when Providence peeked (and corrent me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that is about the time of the peek in the scene here) were actually music fans though, and how many were just kids going out to have a good time with their friends? Of course there are people of all age groups who enjoy concerts and go out of their way to attend them, but they are by far not the vast majority of middle aged people. You have examples of people who are like that, I have scores of examples of people who haven't been to a concert in over a decade. As we bemoan often, most American's live their lives in suburban cocoons hurtling through space in their steel boxes from work to home to soccer to the mini mall. People in their 30s and 40s complaining about today's scene are not for whom the scene exists.

i do not for one moment think that the lack of bands coming thru PVD has anything to do with people my age not wanting to drive into providence--as i said before, fans of live music are fans of live music regardless of their age and whether they have snot nosed kids at suburban homes or not.

In addition, there are plenty of bands that i listen to (like that emo crap) that the young whippersnappers are into now. The entire post Teen/College and barely post collegiate demographic isn't dumpy pants-wearing white ghetto kids into the hiphop and the extascy (damn, i don't even know how to SPELL it, that's how old i am) and the lightsticks at the strand. And there are plenty of bands whose members are in their thirties who have found great success in the college crowd.

the "scene" isn't what is playing on WPRO radio btw, it is usually a more underground, roots, singer/songwriter, band as family kinda thing, sacrificing for your art kind of deal, as folks who are actually into music will tell you. Assuming that the scene merely exists for 22 year olds is like saying art is only for people who can afford it. Simply not true and does a great disservice in my opinion.

So, i doubt that bands are skipping providence because twinks would rather dance the night away all hopped up on goof balls, but rather because the opportunities for 1200+ clubs simply aren't here because they've been turned into something else. that something else may have value, but it shouldn't for a minute DE-value the importance of a vibrant arts scene that includes live music as well as visual and performing arts.

Holy stereotype much? My god woman!

[jencoleslaw]

i can't talk about this any more. I have to go get my hip replaced.

[Cotuit]

Also, a lot of this music debate is relative to people's own interests and preferences. I know a woman who is a local native in her early 30's living in Pawtucket now who is a fan of music that likely is VERY different from what many here on the UP boards listen to (and definitely different from myself). She likes mostly of country-western music, Springstein-eque working class bands, and some jazz (she'll occasionally hit the Hi-Hat) and she goes to a LOT of concerts all over the place. She was just remarking last week that for her, she feels that the local live music scene has "never been better" and gushing about how she's seen more live music in the metro Providence/Boston area than ever before. She goes to about a concert every one or two weeks. A lot of these groups are ones I've never heard of (while, by contrast, I'm very familiar with all of the ones everyone has been talking about above).

That's what I'm getting at, the scene in Providence has changed, some people feel left behind, but others think its never been better, and I'm utterly gobsmacked at the vitriol being slung at the club culture. Just because its not your scene doesn't mean it doesn't have value for those for whom it is their scene.

I have no doubt that as always there's room for improvement, but I think there's a bit of sour grapes from people who are seeing things change.

And I'll add that even with the smoking ban*, people still come down from Boston to patronize our very vibrant gay nightclubs. Maybe Downcity is dead if you're straight, not so much if you're gay.

(*PVD clubs used to advertise you could still smoke here when you couldn't in Boston)

[runawayjim]

for what it's worth, i was getting the feeling that you were also stereotyping today's younger (18-25) crowd as preferring dance clubs.

i have a large variety of kids who work for me. it's split 50-50 between people who prefer the clubs and the people who love live music. i have a kid here who has been to more concerts than me this summer (and they're not cheap concerts and he's got no money) and he goes alone (something many people won't do unless you really love the music).

i can't tell you how many people in their 20's in the early 90's went just for a good time because i wasn't there (i was in middle school in the early 90's). but even those who love music in their 30's and 40's aren't just the types who go to classic rock concerts. there's the people i mentioned who travel for a good show and still see at least a show a week. you know people who don't leave their suburban cocoon, but are they real live music fans or do they just listen to it for noise?

jen is right about the scene... it's not what you hear on the radio. that stuff does not translate to good live music. in fact, someone mentioned even BRU, which isn't playing great music anymore. the music they play isn't good live. the only stations i get (or know of) that play music that would be good live are HJY *gasp* and 100.7 from boston (both for the classic rock). you don't hear good newer rock on the radio that is worth seeing live. there's MVY, which plays some great stuff and i would love for some of those bands to play here. but most of the scene, like jen said, is more underground... more like what i described before with the bands that aren't on the radio because they aren't on major labels. they're known on the internet. myspace is one of the biggest places to find decent (and lots of not-so-decent) good newer music (of course most of those bands won't last).

[eltron]

So where are the other 20-somethings? What do they want, is our scene really lacking, or has it left the previous generation behind?

I've just turned 30 (ouch!) so I am a little out of the demographic, but I have many friends from early 20's to early 40's, and there is a pretty consistent sentiment that the music scene in Providence is on the downward spiral.

I think alot of the talk in this thread so far has been pretty unscientific - that is, while yeah, you could say teeny-bopper pop and southern hip hop crunk cough syrup whatev is big in the corporate MTV music biz, but what we are talking about here is much different.

A local music scene, both with local bands moving up and touring bands coming through, is only as good as its venues, and there is a significant correlation between the number of places that have closed or moved, and the "renaissance" that has been going on lately. Providence easily has the population and draw to support that "scene" but it is just too much effort and cash to keep places going right now.

[Recchia]

Providence has one of the best club scenes around for a city even bigger than its size. I think what Cotuit said a while back in this thread (meaning a few hours ago) is right-on, the demographic and interests of those that are going out in Providence has changed. People are more into hip-hop and dance now, thus the nightlife has changed to support that.

And as far as gay nightlife goes, it is huge in Providence. People always come down from Boston and Connecticut cause the scenes there suck. That being said, if you live in RI and frequent the gay scene you'll quickly learn you end up seeing the same people you don't want to see over and over again...

[Cotuit]

for what it's worth, i was getting the feeling that you were also stereotyping today's younger (18-25) crowd as preferring dance clubs.

I'm not stereotyping I'm pointing out trends, just as disco eclipsed rock for a period in the 70s, dance and rap have grown in popularity since the late 90s. I'm sure it will swing back eventually (and may even be doing so already).

[runawayjim]

That's what I'm getting at, the scene in Providence has changed, some people feel left behind, but others think its never been better, and I'm utterly gobsmacked at the vitriol being slung at the club culture. Just because its not your scene doesn't mean it doesn't have value for those for whom it is their scene.

I have no doubt that as always there's room for improvement, but I think there's a bit of sour grapes from people who are seeing things change.

And I'll add that even with the smoking ban*, people still come down from Boston to patronize our very vibrant gay nightclubs. Maybe Downcity is dead if you're straight, not so much if you're gay.

(*PVD clubs used to advertise you could still smoke here when you couldn't in Boston)

the night club culture and the music culture co-existed not all that long ago. but it seems that the music scene is being somewhat forced out (like what happened with lupo's).

anyone know what happened to the call?

[jencoleslaw]

you asked why the scene had "changed," that if there was a demand, then why don't the bands come and i said it was because there's nowhere for them to come TO, and i pointed out that you need a good promoter, another something we don't have. I didn't mean to malign clubbers, but to say that because Providence's LIVE music scene died because it was a dinosaur i think is just not accurate. You cannot simply open a big empty box and start booking national acts unless you have been in the business for a little while, and have the contacts.

I find it odd that many on the group will fight to the death to keep a club like the strand around and argue that in order for downtown to be vibrant we need clubs like this, but doesn't give a rat's behind about any of the other live rock clubs that were closed down in the name of progress.

and i will quote myself in case anyone missed it before (and hope you will this time read it with my cranky old lady Mrs Kravitz voice--i'm bolding it so you don't miss the funny part):

So, i doubt that bands are skipping providence because twinks would rather dance the night away all hopped up on goof balls, but rather because the opportunities for 1200+ clubs simply aren't here because they've been turned into something else. that something else may have value, but it shouldn't for a minute DE-value the importance of a vibrant arts scene that includes live music as well as visual and performing arts.

[Garris]

The opportunities for 1200+ clubs simply aren't here because they've been turned into something else. that something else may have value, but it shouldn't for a minute DE-value the importance of a vibrant arts scene that includes live music as well as visual and performing arts.

I think that everyone realizes that a vibrant arts scene is critical.

However, to keep focus on a solution, am I correctly interpreting your comment as suggesting that if an energetic and imaginative new generation of Rich Luposes were to find suitable venues in the city, then we