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Providence Music Scene


runawayjim

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I think alot of the talk in this thread so far has been pretty unscientific

Well, that I can agree with. Of course people who feel they are part of the fading music scene can point to a bunch of people who are also part of it. Just as I can anecdotally point to the kids in their early 20s who I work with who are all about the Complex and Kartabar and the other place where the kids are hanging out these days that I'm too old and boring to know about.

I really wish I could remember when the story in Providence Monthly I referenced was printed, it was a cover story late last year I believe. And I felt it was well balanced. A number of people who were influential in the late 80s early 90s were interviewed and it was them who pointed to the shift in taste to dance music as part of the problem with the current scene. And of course they also commented on the current gentrification of Downcity and had nothing nice to say about the Cornish/Lupo's situation.

They also pointed to the lack of a center, to the lack of a big name promoter in town, to which I thought, if you were so into it all a decade ago and are so upset about the scene today, then why aren't you out there trying to save it?

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you asked why the scene had "changed," that if there was a demand, then why don't the bands come and i said it was because there's nowhere for them to come TO, and i pointed out that you need a good promoter, another something we don't have. I didn't mean to malign clubbers, but to say that because Providence's LIVE music scene died because it was a dinosaur i think is just not accurate. You cannot simply open a big empty box and start booking national acts unless you have been in the business for a little while, and have the contacts.

Yeah, I know, so what can people do about that? Who wants to volunteer to sit with Lupo and be his apprentice? As I said, I'm not invested in the scene, if it went away it wouldn't really effect me, so someone form within, someone who's upset at the changes needs to step up. If they don't, well I don't want to be rude, but they need to shut up then.

I find it odd that many on the group will fight to the death to keep a club like the strand around and argue that in order for downtown to be vibrant we need clubs like this, but doesn't give a rat's behind about any of the other live rock clubs that were closed down in the name of progress.

Who were these people fighting to the death? I certainly wasn't too worked up about the whole Deisel/Lupo's license issue. Do I think it's in Downcity's best interest to have Lupo's there? Yes. As someone who's never stepped foot in the venue am I going to go out of my way to fight for it? Sorry, no. I wasn't part of the scene then, and I'm not part of the scene now, it's not my fight. For the people who want to save these venues, I'm there. If someone I knew made a personal appeal to me to sign a petition, or write a letter, or attend a meeting, I would, but I'm not doing it on my own voilition. I'm happy to work with the city to ensure that we have future zoning that allows music and club venues to exist and flourish as I think it's important, but I'm not taking to the streets for any particular venue.

i'm bolding it so you don't miss the funny part

See, that's the part I didn't think was funny.

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I think that everyone realizes that a vibrant arts scene is critical.

However, to keep focus on a solution, am I correctly interpreting your comment as suggesting that if an energetic and imaginative new generation of Rich Luposes were to find suitable venues in the city, then we

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Focusing again on urban planning/development and continuing on the Minnapolis correlation, here's a Map of Minneapolis' downtown:

minneapolis.gif

Where it says the following correspond to the following:

- Minneapolis: Downtown core. High end residential, Fortune 500/corporate, where the skyline is

- Warehouse District: Partyland. Nightclubs, live music, hip and trendy restaurants, sex shops. Generally goes all night. Not much if any residential.

- Elliot Park: Where the Metrodome is. Sports and events oriented, with bars, restaurants, ice rink, etc.

- West Bank: Convention and event land. The convention center/hotels are here as well as many institutions nearby bordering Elliot Park/Downtown like the symphony hall, university extensions, etc. Also a lot of moderate residential.

- Loring Park: Culture land. Many museums, halls, libraries, etc. Moderate cost residential here.

- Not labeled: Mill District: Their version of Valley, along the riverfront, lots of converted mills to lower cost to moderate housing.

All of these areas are connected by light rail or other mass transit.

The University of MN is in the upper right of the map and many other areas (the ethnic "Eat Street" and super-hip and very gay "Uptown/LynnLake" districts are off to the South as well as heavily Liberian/African areas with their own character are off to the North.

This is what a good master plan (as Minneapolis has long had) can create.

Sooooo...

How can Providence create such focused districts to serve a variety of needs? What should be done next? It can't all (and shouldn't all) be in the same place on the W streets. Let's spread out the city!

- Garris

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Yeah, I know, so what can people do about that? Who wants to volunteer to sit with Lupo and be his apprentice?

someone mentioned somewhere (probably the diesel licensing issues thread) that lupo doesn't do most of the promoting himself anymore and has an apprentice and that he's trying to get out of the business...

the problem is that, unless it's you're only job, you're not going to really get anywhere. promoting is not for the meek or the people who don't want to dedicate their life to it.

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Safari was off Westminster (and has since burned down, right? or was it in the building closer to Westminster), and someone please correct me if I'm wrong, though the landlord was probably happy to see them go eventually, they said they closed because they just weren't making money anymore.

I'm wondering how Westminster was 'hopping' back in the Lupo's days as compared to how its hopping or in the opinion of many, not hopping now. Was it hopping when a bunch of people either entered or left a show, or was it hopping while the show was happening. On nights when there were no shows, was i hopping?

I probably won't win any arguments in this thread about Lupo's moving, but it had to go in order for Peerless to come off the way it did. Not even the residential, the residential at the Strand shows that a music venue and residential can coexist, but Cornish needs the ground floor retail. If Westminster is to become a vibrant retail district, the Peerless needs ground floor retail.

Tazza and Black Rep show that live music can live with the upscale residential that Cornish has brought in. Black Rep is even expanding so I hear. No, neither are at the scale of Lupos, but they are good venues for local acts to get their toes wet.

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Bloc Party

Interpol

Snow Patrol

Kasabian

The Arcade Fire

Mates of State

Cat Power

The Kaiser Chiefs

The Go! Team

Editors

Stellastarr*

Maximo Park

Hard-Fi

These are all shows I either took the time to travel and see in the past year or that I would have easily gone to see but did not because of conflicts mostly arising due to the distance, etc. These are all bands that are indie-ish and on the cusp of the mainstream and none of them would have skipped Providence a dozen years ago. And, incidentally, I see no shortage of women at these concerts.

The only show I've seen in Providence in the last year is She Wants Revenge who were at Lupo's but obviously didn't care much since their sound guy basically hit on girls throughout the show while the sound got worse and worse.

I guess another part of the point is that there had been something of a renaissance in what would be widely described as the indie pop/rock scene. A place like Austin with SXSW has embraced it and benefitted from it. This scene was mostly dead in the late 90's and it is the scene which largely gave Providence life in the late 80's. I just don't think that Providence has the ability to pick up the ball again this time and that's too bad.

Again, I can fully understand where others are coming from and I do believe that there are issues outside of venue space that made the Providence scene great. I do think that Lupo getting kicked out of the Peerless marked the end of an era, although it may have simply been a mercy euthanization since the scene was kind of on life support in the late 90's anyway. I don't know. Obviously if there was great demand then someone would try to fill it. Then again, if you can't get a liquor license because the city doesn't want you around, then it's pretty hard to start a business like this. If you can't get space because SBER bought all the cool spots to convert, that's no good either. I point this out not because I necessarily think this is the wrong direction. But these are facts. There was a bustling music scene. It was part of Providence's "hip and cool" reputation, and it is gone. Whether it is the demographics of the city or just an evolution in music taste or policy making doesn't change those facts. I don't think any of my posts have actually said antyhing like "Providence is stupid to let the music scene die" but I do think it was important. I think it will continue to be important if Providence wants to have a rebuildable population instead of just attracting empty nesters or old folks that are tired of living in Boston proper. Others may disagree.

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I'm wondering how Westminster was 'hopping' back in the Lupo's days as compared to how its hopping or in the opinion of many, not hopping now. Was it hopping when a bunch of people either entered or left a show, or was it hopping while the show was happening. On nights when there were no shows, was i hopping?

It was hopping with people looking for something to do before and after a show. Unfortunately at that time there was nothing other than to go to strip clubs. :ph34r:

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Bloc Party

Interpol

Snow Patrol

Kasabian

The Arcade Fire

Mates of State

Cat Power

The Kaiser Chiefs

The Go! Team

Editors

Stellastarr*

Maximo Park

Hard-Fi

I'm with you brick...good taste in music! I was just complaining about this very thing...these are ALL bands that WOULD have played here, but have now bypassed PVD completely...and I just don't want to drive to Boston to see them...

(BTW, Mates of State played AS220 last year. the one exception, really.)

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It was hopping with people looking for something to do before and after a show. Unfortunately at that time there was nothing other than to go to strip clubs. :ph34r:

when i was in providence back then, i remember seeing more people walking around when i was waiting in line to get into lupo's, even when i was going to eat at the mall. it just seemed like there were more people out and about in the city at night (and i'm pretty sure it was a weeknight). this was about 4-5 years ago.

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(BTW, Mates of State played AS220 last year. the one exception, really.)

I knew I should have looked that up. Is there an egg on face emoticon? Actually I only got into Mates very recently because of a girlfriend. If I'd known them before I would definitely have been at that show.

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I do think that Lupo getting kicked out of the Peerless marked the end of an era,

Again, this is why I think Providence needs a district for such things. An area that's zoned, promoted, and used just for this purpose. This way, the "music scene" wouldn't be dependent on one or two establishments that could vanish and be used for something else, wouldn't be dependent on one or two people, but would be a permanent zone that could meld and adapt to the changes in the arts and culture scene independent of the players or businesses involved.

Obviously if there was great demand then someone would try to fill it. Then again, if you can't get a liquor license because the city doesn't want you around, then it's pretty hard to start a business like this. If you can't get space because SBER bought all the cool spots to convert, that's no good either. I point this out not because I necessarily think this is the wrong direction.

A bit of hyperbole here... SBER has hardly bought all the cool spots around town, and unless someone has filled all of the many empty storefronts and buildings scattered all over Providence while I was asleep overnight and built on every surface parking lot, I think we're still OK...

And as you pointed out, you just travelled all over to the above places to see the above bands. How much did the coolness of the venue influence your decision? A music fan is a music fan, right? [hint of sarcasm intentional]

So the question remains, what's next???

I think it will continue to be important if Providence wants to have a rebuildable population instead of just attracting empty nesters or old folks that are tired of living in Boston proper. Others may disagree.

I agree with the overall sentiment, minus the negative implied judgement of demographic groups. Providence needs all those things... It needs people of all types who live here, who pay taxes here, and who shop and spend here.

I don't know about the "hoping" Westminster others remember, but during my times here during non-concert visits during the 90's, Westminster (and virtually all of downtown) was dead, dead, dead. Bordered up, homeless everywhere, grimy as hell. I expected to see tumbleweeds rolling down the streets.

It's a million times more vibrant now (hell, for that matter, hundreds of times more vibrant than when I moved here almost 3 years ago). Everything can co-exist, everything doesn't need to be in the W streets.

Again, lets grow the city...

- Garris

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If you can't get space because SBER bought all the cool spots to convert, that's no good either.

I have to comment on the hyperbole here too. Cool is as cool makes itself. Lupo's was in a department store. Aside from the fact that it wasn't SBER that bought them out, how cool is a department store? It was cool because of what Lupo's made of it. The broad 'arts' community (and I use that term very loosely and by far not all-encompassingly) has to get over the fact that others have discovered the charms of the mill buildings. Didn't people first use them not because they were cool, but because they were cheap? I think it was ArtInRuins or eltron who pointed out a long time ago the potential of empty big boxes (it should be a while yet before they start going condo). There's no reason that someone can't buy up another otherwise maginal space and make it cool. This idea that something needs to be in a mill or on Westminster, like it used to be, is a self fufilling road block along the road of actually rebuilding the music scene that people are complaining has been lost. The Peerless is gone for that purpose, the mills are expensive. Someone needs to start thinking creatively.

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Someone needs to start thinking creatively.

...If I had the time/money, I'd be all over this opportunity. :shades:

Of course, this isn't just a 'if you build it, they will come' type of venture. You've got to build it, promote the hell out of it, AND get acts booked to perform.

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Of course, this isn't just a 'if you build it, they will come' type of venture. You've got to build it, promote the hell out of it, AND get acts booked to perform.

Its not easy, you need to be passionate, and you need to give up any ideas of getting rich (maybe you will, but if that's your goal, you're sunk). But every city has a Lupo, Providence just needs to find its next one.

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Its not easy, you need to be passionate, and you need to give up any ideas of getting rich (maybe you will, but if that's your goal, you're sunk). But every city has a Lupo, Providence just needs to find its next one.

I'm wondering if Lupo will take on a protege as he moves out of the business.

FTR, "cool" was just a easy typing way of summarizing everything you need to start a club. Location, infrastructure, space. It doesn't need to be a fancy loft space or anything like that. Although I'm not quite sure where all of this freely available space is that you are talking about, even if it's not cool. I've put North Main forward in the past but I don't think that space is available anymore. I guess there are parts of South Providence that I don't know well where you could do something like this, but that's right in the middle of the demographic that doesn't care about this type of venue. Olneyville is kind of the same story although at least the access is easy.

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What are you talking about no room? The Jewelry District is one big surface lot.

Cotuit....There is no room. Please give me 1 neighborhood agency in this city that is not going to complain if a nightclub district is established in one particular area. The Armory didn't want a classy tattoo parlor. The JDA complain about everything from noise to trash to music. Forget @ Fox Point. Even Olneyville is complainig about displacement...just wait till the American Locomotive residents move in... It's not going to work anywhere in this city. The only other spot where it could potentially work would be Allens Ave along the waterfront, but the city doesn't really have a comprehensive plan for the area. It looks like it will remain industrial. Downtown has long been known, not just in this city but in most cities, as a gathering place for all forms of entertainment and leisure. Please don't note dark dingy establishments like Tazza and Black Rep as supplementing the nightlife that has closed or the cycle change in demographics. They very well may be great places to go and hang out but neither one cater to the disco type demographic everyone thinks has taken over. They are quiet places that cater to the 30+ crowd and are deemed good tenants by the people that would like to see this area turned into one homogenized landscape. I'm not advocating loud obnoxious locales where people can act like animals, but the whole Diesel story really irked me beyond belief....the fact that all social ills should be traced to the club.. There has to be some sort of balance and some level of co-existence. To say that Job Lot or Mc'd's is ill-suited for downtown is racist, elitist, and counterproductive to creating a vibrant area that appeals to all people of this city...maybe even the Providence public School children that mikepl despises so much. This snobby attitude and outright delusion of grandeur is what'sturning a positive "renaissance" into a boring "hipster" cliche.As Brick said,this "transformation" , for better or worse, could have been better integrated to incorporate the very things that make this city fun and appealing to all different people.

On second note, maybe South Providence wouldn't be that bad for a nightclub district. Everyone knows that it is dumped on with all the social service agencies and ill-reputed places that NO OTHER NEIGHBORHOOD WANTS...

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Cotuit....There is no room. Please give me 1 neighborhood agency in this city that is not going to complain if a nightclub district is established in one particular area. The Armory didn't want a classy tattoo parlor. The JDA complain about everything from noise to trash to music. Forget @ Fox Point. Even Olneyville is complainig about displacement...just wait till the American Locomotive residents move in... It's not going to work anywhere in this city.

Physical space and the harping of a vocal minority in a given neighborhood are two different issues. The physical space in this city exists in spades. Educating the vocal minority on the benefits of a vibrant arts/music scene and getting the non-vocal members of our community to speak up are the challenges.

Please don't note dark dingy establishments like Tazza and Black Rep as supplementing the nightlife that has closed or the cycle change in demographics. They very well may be great places to go and hang out but neither one cater to the disco type demographic everyone thinks has taken over. They are quiet places that cater to the 30+ crowd and are deemed good tenants by the people that would like to see this area turned into one homogenized landscape.

Dark and dingy? Have you been to these places. As for the niche these places fill, no they aren't discos, we got that in spades as well, and no, they won't replace Lupo's if we were to lose it. But let me get this straight, the 30+ crowd (me) shouldn't have a place to hang out because you don't like these establishments or you're somehow angry that they found a way to survive where others haven't? The proprietors of Tazza and Black Rep should be applauded for taking a risk on our risky market and bringing another alternative to our nightlife. This is all sounding like more sour grapes to me.

To say that Job Lot or Mc'd's is ill-suited for downtown is racist, elitist, and counterproductive to creating a vibrant area that appeals to all people of this city...maybe even the Providence public School children that mikepl despises so much.

mikepl's comment a day ago in another thread was ill-advised at best, but dude, let it go. I never said I didn't want a McDonald's downtown, in fact I said I wanted one and listed a bunch of reasons why I think we should have one. And though I suggested that Olneyville may be a good fit for Job Lot (as an economic catalyst for that neighborhood) I said I wasn't opposed to one downtown. But please tell me where a big box discount retailer should go. On Westminster? Westminster is what Westminster is now, please people, there's a whole city out there.

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a boring "hipster" cliche.

I find attending live rock clubs to be boring, and one could go so far as to label the people who hang out at such places hipsters. Tazza may be full of boring hipsters in your book, in mine Lupo's is. Can't we have both kinds of boring hipsters?

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To say that Job Lot or Mc'd's is ill-suited for downtown is racist, elitist, and counterproductive to creating a vibrant area that appeals to all people of this city...maybe even the Providence public School children that mikepl despises so much. This snobby attitude and outright delusion of grandeur is what'sturning a positive "renaissance" into a boring "hipster" cliche.As Brick said,this "transformation" , for better or worse, could have been better integrated to incorporate the very things that make this city fun and appealing to all different people.

I tend to agree with you on most issues, and I do with this one. Look in New York, with a McDonald's in Times Square and the popularity of stuff like the 99 cent store and you see that top tier areas don't have to 100% cater to an 'elitist' crowd and in fact to attain a certain level of success will probably have to draw in the Micky D's, TGIFridays, Wal*Mart crowds.

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I find attending live rock clubs to be boring, and one could go so far as to label the people who hang out at such places hipsters. Tazza may be full of boring hipsters in your book, in mine Lupo's is. Can't we have both kinds of boring hipsters?

Why restrict the discussion to clubs requiring earplugs? :rolleyes:

What has the city got in terms of coffeehouse-type places? That's my favorite kind of venue to perform in -- instead of bars, where everyone's getting pounded, in a coffeehouse, they're getting WIRED and paying attention to the music you're playing -- what a concept!

Doesn't have to be hippy-dippy acoustic folk, either -- not my thing -- but the sort of place where an acoustic blues band or a jazz group can play. Tatnuck Bookcellar in Worcester, that type of place. Does PVD have any of those?

(Sorry for the stupid questions -- but starting next month, Meg and I will actually live in PVD and be able to get some local knowledge for ourselves... :whistling: )

Urb

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And as far as gay nightlife goes, it is huge in Providence. People always come down from Boston and Connecticut cause the scenes there suck. That being said, if you live in RI and frequent the gay scene you'll quickly learn you end up seeing the same people you don't want to see over and over again...

I disagree. Yes, in Fall River and New London, it blows. I'm not a clubkid by any stretch of the imagination, but the gay scene here sucks too. Maybe the gay bathhouse -vo booth-trashy trampy twink crowd is alive and kicking because people do come here from all over NE for that.....but the old Cheers-like bars, dive bars,hang-out joints are gone. It has turned into a "the eclectic dinner party West End hag" everywhere you go....great for some people but definitely not my scene and that 's a shame because it always was.....just realizing this one after getting out of a relationship..The eclectic West End Providence South End Boston transplant queen crew used to dot the landscape.....now they completely dominate the spectrum...

Why restrict the discussion to clubs requiring earplugs? :rolleyes:

What has the city got in terms of coffeehouse-type places? That's my favorite kind of venue to perform in -- instead of bars, where everyone's getting pounded, in a coffeehouse, they're getting WIRED and paying attention to the music you're playing -- what a concept!

Doesn't have to be hippy-dippy acoustic folk, either -- not my thing -- but the sort of place where an acoustic blues band or a jazz group can play. Tatnuck Bookcellar in Worcester, that type of place. Does PVD have any of those?

(Sorry for the stupid questions -- but starting next month, Meg and I will actually live in PVD and be able to get some local knowledge for ourselves... :whistling: )

Urb

Tatnuck Bookseller in Worcester is closed and has been for awhile. Worcester has always sucked...Providence didn't!

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