Richmond: Economy/Business/Real Estate

[Hike]

49 minutes ago, I miss RVA said:

I understand, my friend. And on the one hand, I agree - or at least I WANT to agree. But I've seen what RVA has done over the last 50 years. I've seen what she could have become 50, 40, 30, 20 years ago ... and I'm over-the-moon happy that she's on her way now! I really am. But what you described - to me anyway - just seems like settling. I can't accept that (me personally, not being critical of you and how you see our beloved city) - I just can't accept that RVA has wasted five decades of tremendous potential and allowed herself to get blown past by cities that were NOTHING compared to her back in the 1970s.  Even though I was only a kid at the time, I firmly recall all the talk back then about how RVA was poised and ready to take the mantle from Atlanta and claim HER rightful place among the greatest cities in, not only the South, but in the country. And it NEVER HAPPENED. I remember the excitement. We're going to be the next Atlanta - but because we're already a "big city" with an old "big city" core (the architecture, the neighborhoods) we're going to blow Atlanta out of the water. AND IT NEVER HAPPENED.

Just imagine Richmond as a legit big city. Maybe 800K... 900K in the city... 4 or 5 million in the metro. Imagine going to a gleaming football stadium wherever (counties, cities, who cares??) and seeing an NFL game between the Richmond Whatevers and the Washington Washingtons... Wow... Or going to a gleaming arena to see the Richmond Whatevers taking on the Montreal Canadiens for the Stanley Cup! Or to see the Richmond Whatevers taking on LeBron and the Lakers for the NBA championship... (or back in the day, seeing the Chicago Bulls and MJ come to town)...   Imagine being able to board a jet at RIC and fly ANYWHERE in the world - without paying a king's ransom - or without having to change planes in real hubs like - oh, wait... CHARLOTTE ... or ATLANTA ... why? Because RIC IS AN ACTUAL HUB!! Wow...  Imagine gorgeous 70, 80-story tall (or taller) skyscrapers on the downtown skyline - a skyline so iconic that people AROUND THE WORLD instinctively KNOW - "oh yeah, that's Richmond."  Imagine someone in Tokyo, Hong Kong, Berlin, Moscow, London, Johannesburg, Melbourne, Sydney.... saying "Oh yeah, I have business in Richmond next week... " And that happening on a regular basis ... over the last, say, 30 or so years...

The versions of the same city that we each see are as different as night and day - and yet they are the same city. How I only wish that RVA had become that powerhouse city she was poised to become five decades ago. And how I lament that she never even got off the ground toward that end - much less got there.

Your enthusiasm is thru the roof, no denying this and cheers for that.  I like what you're saying and have said them before myself, but I've changed.  The wish list items described are what you now have in Chicago or like the other cities mentioned.  I think that if anyone wants that type of city, then that's where they move, get that immediate gratification, but, I do feel people come here because it's not these things and that's the reason I'm here.  I wasn't always this way, but I am now and ok being on the slow train, relaxed and taking it all in, slowly growing and becoming a better place to live and at the same time, getting to the office in 15 minutes, being the only car on the expressway on a Sunday morning, etc.  I don't think Richmond had some grand plan to remain small and is glad they missed opportunities, but, I think many that live here are glad it's not those places.  Richmond is a great place and will continue to get better, call something paradise and kiss it goodbye.

[Brent114]

I’m sorry but there is zero appeal to Charlotte or Raleigh and quite frankly I’m offended that Richmond  gets mentioned in the same sentences with those places. 
 

There’s nothing south of Richmond worthy of aspiration. Richmond should look to cities like Boston, Seattle, Providence, Baltimore and Milwaukee.  Only on paper has Raleigh passed Richmond.  The reality on the ground is that it is still very small and provincial.  I’ve felt nothing but underwhelmed visiting Charlotte and Raleigh.   Those cities are nothing like Richmond and have completely different assets and challenges. 

I ‘m also tired of hearing about how inept the city government here is.  It smacks of racism (insofar as ever since the city has been run by black people, white people have been rooting for it to fail).  Old habits die hard. We grew up hearing about how Richmond cannot manage itself all the while ignoring the fact that through the years the city has grown,  cleaned up,  beautified, retained its corporate base, rose to prominence in food and art circles, reduced its poverty rates etc.  Annexation was used to suppress the black vote and when the Feds  shut that nonsense down, white people  (well, boring white people) turned their backs on Richmond and started telling anyone who would listen that the city was a dump and we bought into it.   Even today we peruse page after page of construction/business threads then talk about how the city is somehow dropping the ball.  Self loath much? 

[Icetera]

41 minutes ago, Brent114 said:

I’m sorry but there is zero appeal to Charlotte or Raleigh and quite frankly I’m offended that Richmond  gets mentioned in the same sentences with those places. 
 

There’s nothing south of Richmond worthy of aspiration. Richmond should look to cities like Boston, Seattle, Providence, Baltimore and Milwaukee.  Only on paper has Raleigh passed Richmond.  The reality on the ground is that it is still very small and provincial.  I’ve felt nothing but underwhelmed visiting Charlotte and Raleigh.   Those cities are nothing like Richmond and have completely different assets and challenges. 

I ‘m also tired of hearing about how inept the city government here is.  It smacks of racism (insofar as ever since the city has been run by black people, white people have been rooting for it to fail).  Old habits die hard. We grew up hearing about how Richmond cannot manage itself all the while ignoring the fact that through the years the city has grown,  cleaned up,  beautified, retained its corporate base, rose to prominence in food and art circles, reduced its poverty rates etc.  Annexation was used to suppress the black vote and when the Feds  shut that nonsense down, white people  (well, boring white people) turned their backs on Richmond and started telling anyone who would listen that the city was a dump and we bought into it.   Even today we peruse page after page of construction/business threads then talk about how the city is somehow dropping the ball.  Self loath much? 

This is my only way to like this a second time.

[DalWill]

3 hours ago, Brent114 said:

I’m sorry but there is zero appeal to Charlotte or Raleigh and quite frankly I’m offended that Richmond  gets mentioned in the same sentences with those places. 
 

There’s nothing south of Richmond worthy of aspiration. Richmond should look to cities like Boston, Seattle, Providence, Baltimore and Milwaukee.  Only on paper has Raleigh passed Richmond.  The reality on the ground is that it is still very small and provincial.  I’ve felt nothing but underwhelmed visiting Charlotte and Raleigh.   Those cities are nothing like Richmond and have completely different assets and challenges. 

I ‘m also tired of hearing about how inept the city government here is.  It smacks of racism (insofar as ever since the city has been run by black people, white people have been rooting for it to fail).  Old habits die hard. We grew up hearing about how Richmond cannot manage itself all the while ignoring the fact that through the years the city has grown,  cleaned up,  beautified, retained its corporate base, rose to prominence in food and art circles, reduced its poverty rates etc.  Annexation was used to suppress the black vote and when the Feds  shut that nonsense down, white people  (well, boring white people) turned their backs on Richmond and started telling anyone who would listen that the city was a dump and we bought into it.   Even today we peruse page after page of construction/business threads then talk about how the city is somehow dropping the ball.  Self loath much? 

That's exactly what I'm saying!

[I miss RVA]

22 hours ago, DalWill said:

1. As a 29 yr. old, I get exactly where you are coming from with your statement about the 5 decades that past.  Factor in suburban flight, the landlocked policies (courtesy of the independent city law), a note to Reagan (and 80's Richmond) era politics,  as well as the few recessions we witnessed; this is the concoction we have. Richmond was actually set up to be a major metropolitan destination (and still). Politics and cultural entitlement ruined it out of fear of economic diversity.

2.  Richmond should be "friendly-competitive" because of the settings of what we offer as a southern densed city. With master plans and ideas on the horizon, standing ALONGSIDE the names "Atlanta" and "Charlotte" is what I strive for. No bashing from my end because they are doing something right . We should enhance what we have while excelling for more.

3. Side note, do you think (if designed and structured properly) a 20-25 fl. skyscraper could work itself into a TOD if it isnt facing a sidewalk, but scaled to the back behind 13-15 fl. buildings? Because it seems that's the only way that we'll get some height now..

DalWill - GREAT post. Clearly you DO get exactly where I'm coming from. (Side note: I've got you by 30 years (I'm turning 59 in a couple of months). Indeed - you hit the nail on the head of the major issues that have held Richmond back again and again and again and again over the past five decades.

Point 1:  Richmond was indeed set up in the early '70s to be a major city - and there was SO much talk in those days of how we would explode like Atlanta, only we'd do it better because we were an old-stock city built like the big urban centers in the northeast. With the exception of mainly the newly annexed area (from the 1970 annexation and in part from the 1942 annexation) almost the entire city was set up on a dense grid. We could handle rowhouses as well as Baltimore or Philly -- there was plenty of prime real estate downtown for huge skyscrapers that were CERTAIN to be built because RVA was a magnet for Fortune 500 companies (she was holding her own even vs Atlanta back then) - lots of great things were forecast to happen that -- for the very reasons you outlined - never did. One of the biggest nails in the coffin occurred in the mid-to-late '70s when the region TURNED DOWN Piedmont Airlines - who looked to put their hub HERE and went to Charlotte after we turned them away. Good ol' Virginia "fiscal conservatism" - and the regional powers that be didn't think we needed to pony up what was required to bring a hub airline to RIC. No ..."organic"growth would be just fine for Richmond. We "didn't need" a hub - it would "cost too much". Charlotte jumped on that goal-line fumble and the rest was history.

Point 2: Agreed all the way around. The Richmond300 Plan is, by far, the BEST RVA master plan I've seen over the decades, and I've reviewed most of them that have been around since the 1970s. (Yes, I was that nerdy kid in the Richmond Public Library back in the '70s looking up in the oddball resource stacks for this kind of stuff that wasn't readily published in books but could be found in the public library if you knew where to look - and yes, my parents drove me downtown and let me loose in there for HOURS at a time so I could do my research)... I agree with you 100% - I would like us to get to a point of being able to stand ALONGSIDE "Atlanta" and "Charlotte" - but at almost 59, I simply hope I actually live long enough to see it, because it ain't gonna happen overnight.

Point 3: Do I think it would be possible to 'sneak' height into a TOD-1 zone? Yes - but I think it depends on WHICH TOD-1 parcels come into question. We both know the NIMBYs will be on to any/every trick in the book it would take to try to finagle the flaming hoops of the SUP process. It's a great idea and could work - but I think it would take deep pocket investors with some real umph to get the city to play ball. If Dominion or CoStar wanted to build a 30, 35, 40-story tower in a TOD-1-zoned area via the SUP process, I think they'd get what they wanted. The City would bend over backwards to keep those heavy hitters happy and get the tax revenue a big tower like that could bring. (I believe the old adage is: "Money talks, BS walks.") But the average residential real estate developer who has great plans for a 30-story residential tower and wants to sneak it into one of the TOD-1 zones near a nest of NIMBYs? I think we'd have a fight on our hands - probably a battle royale, unfortunately. I don't see it ending well for height.

Edited July 31, 2021 by I miss RVA

[I miss RVA]

20 hours ago, Brent114 said:

I’m sorry but there is zero appeal to Charlotte or Raleigh and quite frankly I’m offended that Richmond  gets mentioned in the same sentences with those places. 
 

There’s nothing south of Richmond worthy of aspiration. Richmond should look to cities like Boston, Seattle, Providence, Baltimore and Milwaukee.  Only on paper has Raleigh passed Richmond.  The reality on the ground is that it is still very small and provincial.  I’ve felt nothing but underwhelmed visiting Charlotte and Raleigh.   Those cities are nothing like Richmond and have completely different assets and challenges. 

I ‘m also tired of hearing about how inept the city government here is.  It smacks of racism (insofar as ever since the city has been run by black people, white people have been rooting for it to fail).  Old habits die hard. We grew up hearing about how Richmond cannot manage itself all the while ignoring the fact that through the years the city has grown,  cleaned up,  beautified, retained its corporate base, rose to prominence in food and art circles, reduced its poverty rates etc.  Annexation was used to suppress the black vote and when the Feds  shut that nonsense down, white people  (well, boring white people) turned their backs on Richmond and started telling anyone who would listen that the city was a dump and we bought into it.   Even today we peruse page after page of construction/business threads then talk about how the city is somehow dropping the ball.  Self loath much? 

Scratch Providence and replace it with Philadelphia and I'll agree 100% regarding aspiration. Milwaukee is an interesting choice - it's a formerly very big city that's a typical upper-Midwest Rust Belt town that's been dying a very slow and painful not-quite-death. It has a LOT of serious economic problems, large sections where poverty and, unfortunately crime, need to be addressed, and like a lot of former industrial cities of the early-mid 20th century, has fallen on difficult times with shrinking population and less than adequate infrastructure.  For the better part of two decades pre-pandemic, I went to Milwaukee several times a year for baseball (I'm currently about a 90 minutes or so drive from Miller Park) and I have a sizeable number of friends who live in the city. I actually considered moving there 10-12 years ago. I like the city, even with its obviously glaring problems. There were a few reasons why I didn't - none of which really had anything to do with the city itself.

I get what you're saying re: Raleigh (and to an extent, I'm gathering by inference, Charlotte) being a paper tiger. But for all the underwhelming feelings you have about them, there is one FACT that stands out quite starkly and this point cannot be argued: Google Charlotte. Even just Wikipedia. Charlotte is listed as the 15th most populous city in the country - with a population of 900,350, and the 22nd largest metro area in the country (MSA) of 2,684,176. (CSA is more than 2.8 million).  That right there is all we need to know. Period.

For a paper tiger, I would argue that's one whose roar is pretty damn loud. That should be us - RVA - not them. For all the reasons you & others here tout. It should have been us. We were on the launch pad 50 years ago, all systems go - and for many of the reasons you (and others) cited - the rocket got unplugged and never launched.

Regarding your assertion that Charlotte and Raleigh are not like RVA - and that they have completely different assets and challenges. I'll say this: You're right.  They're NOT like RVA. They have actually become legit MAJOR cities (Charlotte for certain has). We still have quite a ways to go.

NOTE: I'm not a fan whatsoever of either of the Carolina cities. I have exactly ZERO love lost for both of them and frankly like neither of them. But I'm realistic enough to see things for what they are - and to give the devil its due, whether I like it or not.

Edited July 31, 2021 by I miss RVA

[marinog711]

All this talk about how we want Richmond to grow…. But ask yourself, what are u doing about it? I moved here two years and I have produced two children.  I also persuaded my kids mother and her mother to move here.  That’s a +5!!!! Let’s do this organically… Men can produce into their 70s.  Let’s get out there and have some fun!  
 

edit:  think about it.. the more babies we are having the need increases for  30+ Story hospital… win win!

 

Edited July 31, 2021 by marinog711

[I miss RVA]

3 hours ago, marinog711 said:

All this talk about how we want Richmond to grow…. But ask yourself, what are u doing about it? I moved here two years and I have produced two children.  I also persuaded my kids mother and her mother to move here.  That’s a +5!!!! Let’s do this organically… Men can produce into their 70s.  Let’s get out there and have some fun!  
 

edit:  think about it.. the more babies we are having the need increases for  30+ Story hospital… win win!

 

AMEN, brother!!! Preach!!! 

As for men's production - if biblical stories are to be taken literally, (a whole different discussion for a different forum) Abraham was 99 when Isaac was conceived & born...

Edited July 31, 2021 by I miss RVA

[123fakestreet]

Regarding the change in zoning requiring less parking spaces - makes we wonder if some existing parking lots are chopped up sold and developed. Most notable Lowe's on Broad. That's some prime real estate and they are no longer required to have all those spaces, half of which are never used...

[I miss RVA]

1 hour ago, 123fakestreet said:

Regarding the change in zoning requiring less parking spaces - makes we wonder if some existing parking lots are chopped up sold and developed. Most notable Lowe's on Broad. That's some prime real estate and they are no longer required to have all those spaces, half of which are never used...

We can always hope. Hard to say though if a retailer such as Lowes would ever part with their precious parking spaces, even through, as you said, most of them go unused for most of the year. That's one of the big downsides right now (at least in how these things get structured in RVA) to having these large-footprint "island" box store retailers - ("island" as in a large box store as an island surrounded by a sea of surface parking) - even if, say, 75% of their parking spaces go unused for 10-plus months out of the year, they always white-knuckle hold onto those spaces for that month-and-a-half holiday shopping season because GOD-FORBID a potential shopper not be able to park and come in for that much-needed Christmas hardware purchase. (After all, nothing rings in the holidays like bulk nails, nuts, screws, bolts, etc. )

I 100% agree with you - it would be SO nice to see some of that parking that fronts Broad Street chopped up and sold off for developers to come in a put up something of decent size there. Somehow, though, unless someone offers Lowes a kings ransom, I honestly don't see them parting with the property - and even an obscenely lucrative offer might not be enough to get them to come off the land not just because of parking but because of store visibility from Broad Street. Here in Chicago, there are plenty such retailers - but their stores (in the more densely developed parts of the central city) generally are much closer to the street. In the case of Target, most stores (at least on the city's North Side), are built to abut the street directly with an attached parking deck/garage. No surface lots. The farther in toward downtown, the more likely these retailers will have been built "into" a larger building, perhaps with other retail or residential or office space on the upper floors.

It would be fantastic to trade in the oceans of surface parking along that stretch of Broad Street for high density and hopefully tall development. I'm not holding my breath though.

[KJHburg]

I am a Charlotte native and current resident but I did live in Fairfax County for 10 years in the early 80s.  I am very familar with how the rest of the state hated Northern VA then and probably still does now. I have read the last couple of pages of posts about Richmond vs Charlotte vs Raleigh vs Atlanta etc.  The first thing I would tell you is you need to be the best Richmond you can be and stop always comparing yourself to everyone in the class (class of Southeastern cities) 

But lets see how we got here.  Richmond was bigger than Charlotte for almost all its history until 1980 when Charlotte passed. True NC cities can annex land in the counties and that has always been in the case in NC.  Virginia's separate counties and independent cities makes this all but impossible.  You can lay that at the foot of your state assembly.  Charlotte is in Mecklenburg county but does not consume all of it.  There are 200,000 people living outside the city of Charlotte in Mecklenburg county.  They do share a few services like parks and recs and libraries.  

Here is a little history on population growth in the 3 cities:  Look in key years like 1900 and 1940 Richmond was much bigger and of course you have many more historical neighborhoods than we do in both cities since we were much smaller. I love Richmod's older neighborhoods with your row homes and elegant homes and I hope you keep those neighborhood in tact.  Reason Charlotte and Raleigh does not have them?  We did not need them.  Our population growth went on a tear in the late 1970s all the way to current day.

Comparison of Richmond (RVA)  +  Raleigh (RTP)  +  Charlotte (CLT)  Pops.  (largest to smallest city in each decade)

Note - All figures are U.S. Census Bureau decennial enumerations, except for the 2020 U.S. Census Bureau estimates as the C.B. has not yet released official decennial counts for 2020

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

1800:    RVA:  3,761                     Ral:  669                           CLT:  276

1860:    RVA:  37,910                  Ral:  4,780                       CLT:  2,265

1900:    RVA:  85,050                  CLT:  18,091*                   Ral:  13,643            N.B.:  1st time Charlotte led Raleigh in pop.

1940:    RVA:  193,042               CLT:  100,899                   Ral:  46,879

1950:    RVA:  230,310               CLT:  134,042                  Ral:  65,679  

1970:    RVA:  249,621*             CLT:  241,420                  Ral:  122,830          N.B.:  1970 census was the high-water mark for Richmond's pop.

1980:   CLT:  315,474*                RVA:  219,214                Ral:  150,255          N.B.:  1st time Charlotte led Richmond in pop.

1990:  CLT:  395,934                   Ral:  212,092*               RVA:  203,056          N.B.:  1st time Raleigh led Richmond in pop.

2000:  CLT:  540,826                   Ral:  276,093                  RVA:  197,790

2010:  CLT:  731,424                   Ral:  403,069                  RVA:  204,214

2020:  CLT:  900,350                   Ral:  483,579                  RVA:  232,866

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

2020 US Census Bureau MSA est. pops.

Charlotte    2,684,276     Rank:  22

Raleigh Cary metro :  1,420,376     Rank:  42  does not include Durham which is a separate metro area but maybe put back together again

RVA:  1,303,469     Rank:  44

Why did Charlotte not only catch up but grew much bigger and here of late the same for Raleigh?  

1. The choice by Piedmont Airlines to put the hub in Charlotte .   One of your posters said that Richmond was their first choice and that was a big mistake to reject it looking back.  Charlotte embraced it first with Piedmont Airlines then US Air and now with American Airlnes. Our city always wanted to become a big national city.  We have 700 flights and are the 2nd biggest hub for the largest airline on planet earth (American)  By early 1980s we got our first nonstop to Europe in London then onto other European cities and we are a hub to the Caribbean too.  In fact our CLT airport is up to 97% of its 2019 peak when 50 million passengers came through our airport.  This is from the Business Journal last week about June's passenger count: 
" Newly released figures from airport officials show nearly 4.2 million people boarded or departed a plane at CLT last month, a slight increase over the 4.1 million passengers recorded there in May and off by just 3% from the 4.3 million people in June of 2019."
Our airport is the number 1 reason cited for corporations moving their HQ or operations here. One joke here in the cold war if the  Soviet Union did not do a first strike on Charlotte we would be disappointed LOL. 

2. Interstate banking:  NC has long allowed statewide banking so anywhere in our 500 mile long state you can open a branch. This prepared our banks to become even bigger.   Most states did not allow this.  Old NCNB based in Charlotte found a loop hole in Federal Reserve rules and bought a small bank in Florida.  Then the rest is history.  When other states opened up their banking NC banks NCNB/Nationsbank/ Bank of America and First Union/Wachoiva now Wells Fargo were ready to pounce.  Our big NC banks rolled up banks all over the southeast including most of the biggest in VA. Banking and finance jobs is the largest source of personal income in Charlotte with Bank of America and Truist (BB&T and SunTrust) both based here and Wells Fargo having their largest employment center in Charlotte with over 27,000 employees.  They heyday for this was 1980s and 1990s to the current.  My mom worked with United VA Bank based in Richmond (worked up in NoVa)  which became Suntrust now it is Truist. Truist moved its HQ here as compromise between former HQs in Atlanta and Winston Salem.  They purchased a 47 story 970,000 sq ft building downtown and put their name on it.  

Quick note on Raleigh and why it has grown even faster than Charlotte 3 words Research Triangle Park.  Started in 1959 as a dream in the piney woods between Raleigh and Durham has grown into a huge technology and biopharma hub.  When pharmaceutical companies worldwide need to conduct the tests for their new drugs it is primarily done in the Raleigh Durham the contract research organization leader in the world.  Apple is opening a 3000 person AI center there now and Google opening a 1000 person engineering hub in Durham.     This all brings me to the 3rd point.

3. NC Boosterism:  the commonwealth of VA has and still is a richer state than NC always has been.  NC is going to try much harder and the history of Charlotte and the state our boosterism is legendary.  We promote ourselves great.  We dream of ideas like a world renown research park in the piney woods of central NC.  We build tall buildings because our bank leaders especially in the past wanted world class buildings to attract high level talent.  We have big plans for our airport that kept getting bigger and bigger and attracting even more flight  Yes our cities are newer but as I always say people vote with their feet.  Raleigh is the 2nd fastest growing metro area in the country.  You may think it has no charm but to the 1000s of people moving there every year probably think differntly. Once you get people to Charlotte or Raleigh hard to get them to leave.  Ally Bank formerly GMAC was based in Detroit but a high level executive they hired from Bank of America did not want to leave Charlotte.  So he grew an operation here even though it is not the headquarter into a 1000 employee bank office in a brand new 26 story building downtown. Guess what the fastest cohort of age group of people is moving to NC's cities?  The 20 somethings and those over 55 who want to retire or semi-retire near our large cities of Charlotte and Raleigh.  So whoever mentioned get your friends and parents to move to Richmond is right that happens all the time here.  I know of a family that moved to Charlotte with 10 other family members from southern California.  They love it here.  Both Charlotte and Raleigh metros are growing at twice the rate of Richmond.  

The ports of Virginia are FAR superior to those in NC.  Richmond should be the #1 logistics hub in middle Atlantic states even serving NC.  Savannah is a much smaller metro and city than Charleston SC but the Savannah port is much bigger the 4th largest container port in US. The logistics hub between Savannah and Atlanta is huge. Charlotte benefits from both Charleston and Savannah ports and our own rapidly expanding Wilmington port.  

Low cost alternative:  Richmond should be poaching as many companies as they can from the DC metro area.  The cost of living in DC area is so high and you are so close.  Only the people needing to call on the Pentagon and big Federal agencies should be up in DC and the rest of the offices should be there.  That is why I think Costar will eventually call Richmond its HQ and it might already be its largest hub.  They will build a much bigger building in downtown RVA.  

I know many of your fine VA Tech graduates as a huge number live in the Charlotte area.  They come down here for job opportunities many of which are availabe in Northern VA but the cost of living is so high there. Why is not I-64 called an Innovation Corridor or something or why is there no research park?  With UVA, VCU and William and Mary and ODU why not encourage those tech firms serving our huge Federal government not in the Richmond metro area?  NC thinks big and thinks outside of the box to generate buzz and guess what it has worked for us.  Did you know that biggest source of new NC residents is from the commonwealth of VA?  
Where are North Carolina’s newest residents moving from? | Carolina Demography (ncdemography.org)

So because our cities are newer and now bigger than Richmond is no reason to dislike them. We will NEVER have the stock of older buildings you have.  But for close 200 years your city was bigger than anything in the state of NC. Charlotte used to but not much anymore get dumped on by larger US cities.  Case in point a Phoenix sportswriter said before we got an expansion NBA team the Hornets the only franchise Charlotte will ever get it is a McDonalds.  This only made people here work harder to get a team buying more season tickets etc.  

I would be happy to personally give you a tour of neighborhoods in Charlotte where historic textile mills and factories have been restored.  Tree lined streets with homes both new and old intermixed And yes even our gleaming uptown skyline (another boosterism uptown vs downtown but it is located on a ridge). Our booming suburbs and small ring cities with their own charms.  We try harder here in NC and it is working for us.

I will leave you with this quote from 1900.
"Vale of Humility between Two Mountains of Conceit" is a phrase describing North Carolina that originated from a speech given by Mary Oates Spratt Van Landingham on 6 Mar. 1900. That day, she spoke on the "native literature" of North Carolina before the Mecklenburg Historical Society in Charlotte. Referencing North Carolina's location between South Carolina and Virginia, Van Landingham said, "Where there are mountains of conceit, there are apt to be valleys of humility." The term has remained a source of tongue-in-cheek pride for North Carolinians.

So come on down for a visit and I will treat you to lunch on my NC dime!

KJ

PS I have good friends who live in Chesterfield County 
sorry for the long post but I felt I had to explain. 

[123fakestreet]

5 hours ago, I miss RVA said:

We can always hope. Hard to say though if a retailer such as Lowes would ever part with their precious parking spaces, even through, as you said, most of them go unused for most of the year. That's one of the big downsides right now (at least in how these things get structured in RVA) to having these large-footprint "island" box store retailers - ("island" as in a large box store as an island surrounded by a sea of surface parking) - even if, say, 75% of their parking spaces go unused for 10-plus months out of the year, they always white-knuckle hold onto those spaces for that month-and-a-half holiday shopping season because GOD-FORBID a potential shopper not be able to park and come in for that much-needed Christmas hardware purchase. (After all, nothing rings in the holidays like bulk nails, nuts, screws, bolts, etc. )

I 100% agree with you - it would be SO nice to see some of that parking that fronts Broad Street chopped up and sold off for developers to come in a put up something of decent size there. Somehow, though, unless someone offers Lowes a kings ransom, I honestly don't see them parting with the property - and even an obscenely lucrative offer might not be enough to get them to come off the land not just because of parking but because of store visibility from Broad Street. Here in Chicago, there are plenty such retailers - but their stores (in the more densely developed parts of the central city) generally are much closer to the street. In the case of Target, most stores (at least on the city's North Side), are built to abut the street directly with an attached parking deck/garage. No surface lots. The farther in toward downtown, the more likely these retailers will have been built "into" a larger building, perhaps with other retail or residential or office space on the upper floors.

It would be fantastic to trade in the oceans of surface parking along that stretch of Broad Street for high density and hopefully tall development. I'm not holding my breath though.

yeah no way would they give up massive chunks or completely lose their direct fronting to Broad, but I could see the gas station on the west end of the property having a tower go in just like the former gas station on the east end, and such a project eating up a few rows of parking from the Lowe's lot along with it, particularly the part of the lot that is behind the gas station and not fronting broad.

[wrldcoupe4]

That gas station is for sale also. 

[I miss RVA]

3 hours ago, KJHburg said:

I am a Charlotte native and current resident but I did live in Fairfax County for 10 years in the early 80s.  I am very familar with how the rest of the state hated Northern VA then and probably still does now. I have read the last couple of pages of posts about Richmond vs Charlotte vs Raleigh vs Atlanta etc.  The first thing I would tell you is you need to be the best Richmond you can be and stop always comparing yourself to everyone in the class (class of Southeastern cities) 

But lets see how we got here.  Richmond was bigger than Charlotte for almost all its history until 1980 when Charlotte passed. True NC cities can annex land in the counties and that has always been in the case in NC.  Virginia's separate counties and independent cities makes this all but impossible.  You can lay that at the foot of your state assembly.  Charlotte is in Mecklenburg county but does not consume all of it.  There are 200,000 people living outside the city of Charlotte in Mecklenburg county.  They do share a few services like parks and recs and libraries.  

Here is a little history on population growth in the 3 cities:  Look in key years like 1900 and 1940 Richmond was much bigger and of course you have many more historical neighborhoods than we do in both cities since we were much smaller. I love Richmod's older neighborhoods with your row homes and elegant homes and I hope you keep those neighborhood in tact.  Reason Charlotte and Raleigh does not have them?  We did not need them.  Our population growth went on a tear in the late 1970s all the way to current day.

Comparison of Richmond (RVA)  +  Raleigh (RTP)  +  Charlotte (CLT)  Pops.  (largest to smallest city in each decade)

Note - All figures are U.S. Census Bureau decennial enumerations, except for the 2020 U.S. Census Bureau estimates as the C.B. has not yet released official decennial counts for 2020

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

1800:    RVA:  3,761                     Ral:  669                           CLT:  276

1860:    RVA:  37,910                  Ral:  4,780                       CLT:  2,265

1900:    RVA:  85,050                  CLT:  18,091*                   Ral:  13,643            N.B.:  1st time Charlotte led Raleigh in pop.

1940:    RVA:  193,042               CLT:  100,899                   Ral:  46,879

1950:    RVA:  230,310               CLT:  134,042                  Ral:  65,679  

1970:    RVA:  249,621*             CLT:  241,420                  Ral:  122,830          N.B.:  1970 census was the high-water mark for Richmond's pop.

1980:   CLT:  315,474*                RVA:  219,214                Ral:  150,255          N.B.:  1st time Charlotte led Richmond in pop.

1990:  CLT:  395,934                   Ral:  212,092*               RVA:  203,056          N.B.:  1st time Raleigh led Richmond in pop.

2000:  CLT:  540,826                   Ral:  276,093                  RVA:  197,790

2010:  CLT:  731,424                   Ral:  403,069                  RVA:  204,214

2020:  CLT:  900,350                   Ral:  483,579                  RVA:  232,866

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

2020 US Census Bureau MSA est. pops.

Charlotte    2,684,276     Rank:  22

Raleigh Cary metro :  1,420,376     Rank:  42  does not include Durham which is a separate metro area but maybe put back together again

RVA:  1,303,469     Rank:  44

Why did Charlotte not only catch up but grew much bigger and here of late the same for Raleigh?  

1. The choice by Piedmont Airlines to put the hub in Charlotte .   One of your posters said that Richmond was their first choice and that was a big mistake to reject it looking back.  Charlotte embraced it first with Piedmont Airlines then US Air and now with American Airlnes. Our city always wanted to become a big national city.  We have 700 flights and are the 2nd biggest hub for the largest airline on planet earth (American)  By early 1980s we got our first nonstop to Europe in London then onto other European cities and we are a hub to the Caribbean too.  In fact our CLT airport is up to 97% of its 2019 peak when 50 million passengers came through our airport.  This is from the Business Journal last week about June's passenger count: 
" Newly released figures from airport officials show nearly 4.2 million people boarded or departed a plane at CLT last month, a slight increase over the 4.1 million passengers recorded there in May and off by just 3% from the 4.3 million people in June of 2019."
Our airport is the number 1 reason cited for corporations moving their HQ or operations here. One joke here in the cold war if the  Soviet Union did not do a first strike on Charlotte we would be disappointed LOL. 

2. Interstate banking:  NC has long allowed statewide banking so anywhere in our 500 mile long state you can open a branch. This prepared our banks to become even bigger.   Most states did not allow this.  Old NCNB based in Charlotte found a loop hole in Federal Reserve rules and bought a small bank in Florida.  Then the rest is history.  When other states opened up their banking NC banks NCNB/Nationsbank/ Bank of America and First Union/Wachoiva now Wells Fargo were ready to pounce.  Our big NC banks rolled up banks all over the southeast including most of the biggest in VA. Banking and finance jobs is the largest source of personal income in Charlotte with Bank of America and Truist (BB&T and SunTrust) both based here and Wells Fargo having their largest employment center in Charlotte with over 27,000 employees.  They heyday for this was 1980s and 1990s to the current.  My mom worked with United VA Bank based in Richmond (worked up in NoVa)  which became Suntrust now it is Truist. Truist moved its HQ here as compromise between former HQs in Atlanta and Winston Salem.  They purchased a 47 story 970,000 sq ft building downtown and put their name on it.  

Quick note on Raleigh and why it has grown even faster than Charlotte 3 words Research Triangle Park.  Started in 1959 as a dream in the piney woods between Raleigh and Durham has grown into a huge technology and biopharma hub.  When pharmaceutical companies worldwide need to conduct the tests for their new drugs it is primarily done in the Raleigh Durham the contract research organization leader in the world.  Apple is opening a 3000 person AI center there now and Google opening a 1000 person engineering hub in Durham.     This all brings me to the 3rd point.

3. NC Boosterism:  the commonwealth of VA has and still is a richer state than NC always has been.  NC is going to try much harder and the history of Charlotte and the state our boosterism is legendary.  We promote ourselves great.  We dream of ideas like a world renown research park in the piney woods of central NC.  We build tall buildings because our bank leaders especially in the past wanted world class buildings to attract high level talent.  We have big plans for our airport that kept getting bigger and bigger and attracting even more flight  Yes our cities are newer but as I always say people vote with their feet.  Raleigh is the 2nd fastest growing metro area in the country.  You may think it has no charm but to the 1000s of people moving there every year probably think differntly. Once you get people to Charlotte or Raleigh hard to get them to leave.  Ally Bank formerly GMAC was based in Detroit but a high level executive they hired from Bank of America did not want to leave Charlotte.  So he grew an operation here even though it is not the headquarter into a 1000 employee bank office in a brand new 26 story building downtown. Guess what the fastest cohort of age group of people is moving to NC's cities?  The 20 somethings and those over 55 who want to retire or semi-retire near our large cities of Charlotte and Raleigh.  So whoever mentioned get your friends and parents to move to Richmond is right that happens all the time here.  I know of a family that moved to Charlotte with 10 other family members from southern California.  They love it here.  Both Charlotte and Raleigh metros are growing at twice the rate of Richmond.  

The ports of Virginia are FAR superior to those in NC.  Richmond should be the #1 logistics hub in middle Atlantic states even serving NC.  Savannah is a much smaller metro and city than Charleston SC but the Savannah port is much bigger the 4th largest container port in US. The logistics hub between Savannah and Atlanta is huge. Charlotte benefits from both Charleston and Savannah ports and our own rapidly expanding Wilmington port.  

Low cost alternative:  Richmond should be poaching as many companies as they can from the DC metro area.  The cost of living in DC area is so high and you are so close.  Only the people needing to call on the Pentagon and big Federal agencies should be up in DC and the rest of the offices should be there.  That is why I think Costar will eventually call Richmond its HQ and it might already be its largest hub.  They will build a much bigger building in downtown RVA.  

I know many of your fine VA Tech graduates as a huge number live in the Charlotte area.  They come down here for job opportunities many of which are availabe in Northern VA but the cost of living is so high there. Why is not I-64 called an Innovation Corridor or something or why is there no research park?  With UVA, VCU and William and Mary and ODU why not encourage those tech firms serving our huge Federal government not in the Richmond metro area?  NC thinks big and thinks outside of the box to generate buzz and guess what it has worked for us.  Did you know that biggest source of new NC residents is from the commonwealth of VA?  
Where are North Carolina’s newest residents moving from? | Carolina Demography (ncdemography.org)

So because our cities are newer and now bigger than Richmond is no reason to dislike them. We will NEVER have the stock of older buildings you have.  But for close 200 years your city was bigger than anything in the state of NC. Charlotte used to but not much anymore get dumped on by larger US cities.  Case in point a Phoenix sportswriter said before we got an expansion NBA team the Hornets the only franchise Charlotte will ever get it is a McDonalds.  This only made people here work harder to get a team buying more season tickets etc.  

I would be happy to personally give you a tour of neighborhoods in Charlotte where historic textile mills and factories have been restored.  Tree lined streets with homes both new and old intermixed And yes even our gleaming uptown skyline (another boosterism uptown vs downtown but it is located on a ridge). Our booming suburbs and small ring cities with their own charms.  We try harder here in NC and it is working for us.

I will leave you with this quote from 1900.
"Vale of Humility between Two Mountains of Conceit" is a phrase describing North Carolina that originated from a speech given by Mary Oates Spratt Van Landingham on 6 Mar. 1900. That day, she spoke on the "native literature" of North Carolina before the Mecklenburg Historical Society in Charlotte. Referencing North Carolina's location between South Carolina and Virginia, Van Landingham said, "Where there are mountains of conceit, there are apt to be valleys of humility." The term has remained a source of tongue-in-cheek pride for North Carolinians.

So come on down for a visit and I will treat you to lunch on my NC dime!

KJ

PS I have good friends who live in Chesterfield County 
sorry for the long post but I felt I had to explain. 

Best, most accurate and clear-eyed analysis and explanation of the dynamics of this debate I've yet to see on here. Well said, all the way around. Bravo and humble thanks. You nailed it in every possible way.

[Brent114]

Thanks for the class on NC’s growth.  It is really impressive.
 

The take away should be that the residents of NC rally around the state.  Here in VA we hate on NOVA, which is just about the dumbest thing to do, and continue to claim that the city of Richmond is inept at growing its business and population even while it is doing just that.   Suburban Richmond roots for the city to fail and it’s so ingrained in the public that even Richmond enthusiasts here on urban planet repeat the same dispelled myths about failed government.  Once again, the root cause is the racism of generations ago.  We don’t even see it when we hear about things like 6th Street Marketplace.  Plenty of cities have failed redevelopment ideas.  Richmond’s track record is probably pretty average.  The city actually succeeds most of the time.  But to fail when POC are in charge is unforgivable for white suburbanites.  The racism has waned but the digs that started because of it are alive and well. 
 

I don’t know how it works in NC but in VA annexation was used to dilute the political power of black people.  It was a scourge that only went away because the DOJ made Virginia do away with it.  Annexation is dead as it should be.  

Edited August 1, 2021 by Brent114

[eandslee]

Quote

Suburban Richmond roots for the city to fail and it’s so ingrained in the public that even Richmond enthusiasts here on urban planet repeat the same dispelled myths about failed government.  Once again, the root cause is the racism of generations ago.  

 

Sorry if I’m misinterpreting what you are saying here (I don’t want to blow this out of proportion), but I have to ask…are you saying that comments like the ones coming from I Miss RVA in this thread are racist?!

Edited August 1, 2021 by eandslee

[I miss RVA]

8 minutes ago, eandslee said:

Sorry if I’m misinterpreting what you are saying here (I don’t want to blow this out of proportion), but I have to ask…are you saying that comments like the ones coming from I Miss RVA in this thread are racist?!

I'll be interested to know myself, tbh! I haven't responded to Brent's post just yet - I wanna see where this goes.

[wrldcoupe4]

Brent - it’s okay to be critical of one’s government when it isn’t doing something well or we desire something to be better. That’s kind of the whole point. It doesn’t mean someone is racist because they think the city permitting office has had deficiencies, or that for a while the city of Richmond was the only locality that had trouble timely submitting its financial reporting, which nearly compromised its strong  credit rating. I know the types of comments that I think you are referring to for the most part, and I grew up in the suburbs subjected to plenty of city hating, but trying to clarify within your broad generalization that some of us want to push the city to improve and aren’t trying to run people of color out of power. 
 

On annexation, it’s common in the entire country save Virginia. I have a hard time seeing that is is somehow progressive to put the disproportionate burden of a region’s challenges (poverty, crime, etc) on the urban core without sharing the region’s resources. Annexation was abused 50 years ago but do you honestly think it would be used in the same manner today with a city that is 80+% liberal? Frankly the thinking feels almost as bad as the people that roll out 6th Street Marketplace to criticize the city. 

Edited August 2, 2021 by wrldcoupe4

[Brent114]

I’ll try this later, the format of

my text is all crazy 

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Brent114
Weird format

[Icetera]

17 hours ago, eandslee said:

 

Sorry if I’m misinterpreting what you are saying here (I don’t want to blow this out of proportion), but I have to ask…are you saying that comments like the ones coming from I Miss RVA in this thread are racist?!

I take what he is saying as pointing out that a lot of issues, and simply perceived issues, originate from old racism.  The desire from suburbanites to see the city fail is a very real thing, just read comments in any news article.  It is ingrained in our local culture and at times we will also pick it up without the realization of the origins.  That does not make the statements themselves racist, but we do need to recognize where things are coming from and why we may repeat long existing statements that may not actually be as accurate as perceived.  This is also another hurtle that newly established Southern cities do not need to cross.

[Icetera]

14 hours ago, wrldcoupe4 said:

Brent - it’s okay to be critical of one’s government when it isn’t doing something well or we desire something to be better. That’s kind of the whole point. It doesn’t mean someone is racist because they think the city permitting office has had deficiencies, or that for a while the city of Richmond was the only locality that had trouble timely submitting its financial reporting, which nearly compromised its strong  credit rating. I know the types of comments that I think you are referring to for the most part, and I grew up in the suburbs subjected to plenty of city hating, but trying to clarify within your broad generalization that some of us want to push the city to improve and aren’t trying to run people of color out of power. 
 

On annexation, it’s common in the entire country save Virginia. I have a hard time seeing that is is somehow progressive to put the disproportionate burden of a region’s challenges (poverty, crime, etc) on the urban core without sharing the region’s resources. Annexation was abused 50 years ago but do you honestly think it would be used in the same manner today with a city that is 80+% liberal? Frankly the thinking feels almost as bad as the people that roll out 6th Street Marketplace to criticize the city. 

Criticizing specific issues is absolutely valid, but many of us are also guilty of bashing our local government in a blanket manner.  There is certainly a difference from pointing out the councilmembers who do not have the city's interests at heart versus discrediting the council as a whole.  I bet the county governments have plenty of issues themselves but their organization and prominence keeps them from the spotlight.  Richmond's has always been front-and-center.

The annexation thing is a mixed bag.  While there were certainly desires to drown out black voices, there was also a need to acquire fresh tax revenue.  With white-flight and the existing lack of financial equality among minorities, the city was left with a majority poorer population that need much more support.  Note that housing projects were not built out in the counties where the tax base exists as support, leading to a overreliance on State and Federal revenues.  Had we not had the independent city systems that we have, growth could have been more organic without ever resorting to the ridiculousness of our annexation and unbalanced county-conversions (looking at you Queen Anne County).

[I miss RVA]

2 hours ago, Brent114 said:

I’ll try this later, the format of

my text is all crazy 

 

I HATE it when that happens!! 

[I miss RVA]

12 minutes ago, Icetera said:

Criticizing specific issues is absolutely valid, but many of us are also guilty of bashing our local government in a blanket manner.  There is certainly a difference from pointing out the councilmembers who do not have the city's interests at heart versus discrediting the council as a whole.  I bet the county governments have plenty of issues themselves but their organization and prominence keeps them from the spotlight.  Richmond's has always been front-and-center.

The annexation thing is a mixed bag.  While there were certainly desires to drown out black voices, there was also a need to acquire fresh tax revenue.  With white-flight and the existing lack of financial equality among minorities, the city was left with a majority poorer population that need much more support.  Note that housing projects were not built out in the counties where the tax base exists as support, leading to a overreliance on State and Federal revenues.  Had we not had the independent city systems that we have, growth could have been more organic without ever resorting to the ridiculousness of our annexation and unbalanced county-conversions (looking at you Queen Anne County).

There's the whole crux of it right there. The independent city system (which did not exist in Virginia until 1871) has been the bane of Richmond and a huge driver in the "we vs they" mentality of the suburban counties eye of distain toward the poorer central city. Rather than relying on regional cooperation and a "rising tide lifting all boats" - regional economics became (and remains to a very real extent) a zero-sum game. Somehow, if the city "wins" (however you define it) the counties somehow lose and vice versa. Factor in inherent old-school racism (and I totally get where Brent is coming from and, as you pointed out, icetera, those old cultural ideologies never went away and have been part of the city/county, black/white divide that has held RVA as a city and a metro back now for generations) and the whole region was set up NOT to work cooperatively in the manner in which a Charlotte/Mecklenburg County can - or (for example) a Seattle/Kings County, WA can or the way a Chicago/Cook County, IL can. Look at the two most successful independent cities in the country - Baltimore and St. Louis. Both were at the time of the 1950 census cities with populations of 949K and 856K respectively, thanks to the large concentration of heavy industry and their places as railway/shipping/transportation hubs and ports of entry. Fast forward to today - the shift away from heavy industry to technology and information - suburbanization and large demographic shifts have seen both cities continue on a downward trend in terms of population - with Baltimore currently at 586K (2020 - with 2021 estimates at 575K) and St. Louis at just under 295K ... precipitous declines in central city populations, even while the metro areas themselves continued to grow at a steady pace. While large population declines have affected many of the northeastern and midwestern Rust Belt cities, it can be argued that the impact is felt greater in the independent cities, which much bear the brunt of the costs of the core city without shared resources that other cities enjoy in a traditional city/county relationship.

All of this is to say that the independent city system in place in Virginia since 1871 has been at the core of one of the biggest problematic issues regarding governance, growth, prosperity, etc., within the RVA metro - and has long set the stage for the LACK of regional cooperation in central Virginia -- the kind of cooperation that other fast-growing metro areas across the country have enjoyed and used to foster great success, prosperity and growth.

[123fakestreet]

1 hour ago, Icetera said:

I take what he is saying as pointing out that a lot of issues, and simply perceived issues, originate from old racism.  The desire from suburbanites to see the city fail is a very real thing, just read comments in any news article.  It is ingrained in our local culture and at times we will also pick it up without the realization of the origins.  That does not make the statements themselves racist, but we do need to recognize where things are coming from and why we may repeat long existing statements that may not actually be as accurate as perceived.  This is also another hurtle that newly established Southern cities do not need to cross.

This. There is definitely a large group of people in this area who want to see the city fail and take joy in seeing it happen, many from the suburbs as their justification for not living in the city limits, but many NIMBYs within the city as well. 

Their explicit intent may not be racist, but it certainly derives from the fact that after white flight the city was majority black and began electing largely black officials.  Even though the white people had left voluntarily there was a bit of resentment that the city had been "taken" from them and that blacks were now in power, and seeing the city fail had a strong undercurrent of "haha see black people can't run the city, they don't know what they're doing."  Which of course ignores many major factors in the city failing which have previously been discussed in this thread and mostly derive from the independent city status and no longer being able to annex - also largely a policy based in racism.  Set them up to fail then laugh and call them incompetent when they do.

[wrldcoupe4]

4 hours ago, Brent114 said:

I’ll try this later, the format of

my text is all crazy 

 

Brent - your formatting will probably work fine if you respond with “well said coupe, I agree with you”

Edited August 2, 2021 by wrldcoupe4