Who do we like for Governor?

[Yankee Fan]

From Mejane's "post":

"The economy in Michigan sucks right now. ALL THE MONEY IN THIS

COUNTRY HAS BEEN HIJACKED BY THIS ADMINISTRATION and I will not

support ANY republican/conservative/right wing fundamentalist hack

who supported this idiot president in his crusade of democracy through

the barrel of a gun at the expense of the rest of the country."

I cannot say that anyone should follow your logic when voting in this election. First, your typical over the top junk line of administration slamming was baseless and poorly thought through. Freedom of expression, which you appear to not be lacking when it comes to the written word, does not make you or anyone else a fundamentalist. And to accuse someone like you did and tie it to multiple names is just plain adolescent behavior. Nice work.

Second, so you think the president is less than intelligent. But again, where are you getting this? Just because you do not agree with someone does not mean that they are dumb. So he was not blessed with the ability to rattle off long lines of verse like you apparently can. But that does not make him dumb. I think that your inability to check your emotions in your post and copping out at the end shows an ignorance level that far surpasses anything that our president has said.

I voted for Grandholm last time. I am not sure what I plan to do this time. But if your post is any reflection of the people who do support her, then I want no part of that. Stupid is as stupid does and your post was pretty stupid.

[Rizzo]

Pardon, but calling out someone's .02 cents as "stupid" is also adolescent behavior, correct?

[GRDadof3]

From Mejane's "post":

"The economy in Michigan sucks right now. ALL THE MONEY IN THIS

COUNTRY HAS BEEN HIJACKED BY THIS ADMINISTRATION and I will not

support ANY republican/conservative/right wing fundamentalist hack

who supported this idiot president in his crusade of democracy through

the barrel of a gun at the expense of the rest of the country."

I cannot say that anyone should follow your logic when voting in this election. First, your typical over the top junk line of administration slamming was baseless and poorly thought through. Freedom of expression, which you appear to not be lacking when it comes to the written word, does not make you or anyone else a fundamentalist. And to accuse someone like you did and tie it to multiple names is just plain adolescent behavior. Nice work.

Second, so you think the president is less than intelligent. But again, where are you getting this? Just because you do not agree with someone does not mean that they are dumb. So he was not blessed with the ability to rattle off long lines of verse like you apparently can. But that does not make him dumb. I think that your inability to check your emotions in your post and copping out at the end shows an ignorance level that far surpasses anything that our president has said.

I voted for Grandholm last time. I am not sure what I plan to do this time. But if your post is any reflection of the people who do support her, then I want no part of that. Stupid is as stupid does and your post was pretty stupid.

And that's where you stepped over the line. It's one thing for someone to attack a current President or a person holding public office (it's our duty). It's quite another to attack another forumer. As much as I don't want to, I have to suspend you yankeefan.

[Lplan]

I'm hearing a lot of comments about how Devos isn't a good businessman ...

What i think is kind of funny is how GWB's terrible business management history (and arguably, terrible governing history, too ) never really seemed to matter, but DeVos' business experience is referenced as a way of estimating his prowess as a governmental leader.

Many of X sport's best coaches were terrible players in their sports, but phenomenal at coaching.

Similarly, I think that, while some politicians who are great at business are similarly great at governance, there are equal numbers of great businesspeople who are absolutely dismal at running a government. I guess I'm wondering if we should really give candidates' business history credence in a political race. On the other hand, I suppose that a candidate's management style or decision making skills might reflect on their potential abilities or philosophies that they might take into office.

Well, enough of that. Please recommence the rants and fiery rhetoric/mudslinging. I'm enjoying the, um, dialogue.

[Veloise]

Lots of interesting background in this article: http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?A...1374/POLITICS01

DV dropped out of Calvin and eventually earned a degree in business from a small college in Midland.

In contrast, JMG was the first member of her family to attend college, and she put herself through U-C Berkeley. At Harvard she was editor of the Law Review, and graduated with honors.

[localtalent]

And that's where you stepped over the line. It's one thing for someone to attack a current President or a person holding public office (it's our duty). It's quite another to attack another forumer. As much as I don't want to, I have to suspend you yankeefan.

Interesting that you're suspending yankeefan for attacking a forumer, yet the original post being responded to which calls all DeVos supporters "Dicks" in a clearly pejorative manner seems to be hunky dory.

I love hypocrisy.

[WOT]

Interesting that you're suspending yankeefan for attacking a forumer, yet the original post being responded to which calls all DeVos supporters "Dicks" in a clearly pejorative manner seems to be hunky dory.

I love hypocrisy.

I caught that too - interesting.

The rants going on are some of the reasons why I'm still undecided. Both sides continue the same ole, same ole. As a struggling entrepeneur, I just wish there could be a way that all of the screaming stops and a strong, healthy, vibrant debate could happen. I bet if polled, we all agree on about 95% of the issues facing us as a state AND country - yet the politicians seem to always fall into the 5% area that gets everyone screaming at each other. well, thats my $.03 of undecided rant.

[MAU]

I love how politics makes everybody act like 10 year olds. Maybe we do need to lower the voting age.

[michaelskis]

Michaelskis, a recent study has conclude that Grand Rapids ranks 1 American for being the most affordable for family health insurance. The study also ranks GR second for Children's health insurance. That's probably why I don't have insurance, because I can pay out of pocket.

http://www.ehealthinsurance.com/content/Re...CitiesFinal.pdf

While I think that is phenomenal for Grand Rapids, what about the rest of the state.

According to this report, St. Louis, MO which is the most affordable place for Children covered by their own health insurance, still has almost 119,000 uninsured children.

Grand Rapids is an amazing place (I think that we can all agree on that) but what about Detroit? While it ranks in the upper half on both (19 on the Family Scale) we know that there is also a large number of children that have no insurance because the parents don

[gvsusean]

Interesting that you're suspending yankeefan for attacking a forumer, yet the original post being responded to which calls all DeVos supporters "Dicks" in a clearly pejorative manner seems to be hunky dory.

I love hypocrisy.

lol, right

[Veloise]

While I think that is phenomenal for Grand Rapids, what about the rest of the state.

According to this report, St. Louis, MO which is the most affordable place for Children covered by their own health insurance, still has almost 119,000 uninsured children.

Grand Rapids is an amazing place (I think that we can all agree on that) but what about Detroit? While it ranks in the upper half on both (19 on the Family Scale) we know that there is also a large number of children that have no insurance because the parents don

[mejane]

Now here's where I'm supposed to apologize for the rant or insert a

little smilie, but I refuse - I've listened to all of you Dick supporters

long enough. (pun intended)

Have a nice day.

[localtalent]

Now here's where I'm supposed to apologize for the rant or insert a

little smilie, but I refuse - I've listened to all of you Dick supporters

long enough. (pun intended)

Have a nice day.

Quoting myself: "Dick Supporters" = jock strap = a pun = a sloppy attempt at levity

in an "emotional" post. I was NOT calling anyone who supports a candidate I don't

support, "a dick." I think many of you have done worse with your own humor,

yet it is still recognized as such.

What a relief. You were only comparing Devos supporters to undergarments rather than calling them childish names. It's a good thing the Thought Police are on your side, isn't it?

Rational debate on the issues is thrown out the window when all one side can do is shout at the other. I think it's a good thing that you're passionate about your beliefs and you seem eager to express them. I'd simply encourage you to find ways to be more rationally persuasive and less aggressive in your statements.

For my part, I'll try to drop the "holier than thou" attitude and leave this thread alone.

[mejane]

And to Yankeefan, I appreciate your passion but I believe my fellow forumers

- whether they agree with me or not - have come to recognize that my

posts and responses are ALWAYS well thought out. And while I occassionally

fail to do my homework - and am the first to apologize when I am factually

incorrect - I CLEARLY am not, by definition, IGNORANT.

AND, I haven't been an adolescent since 1969...if you had called me that

in person, I would have taken it as a compliment.

Oh, and about ten years ago, GWB WAS able to rattle off complete sentences.

There is a video or two on you tube when he was gov of Texas that are a

testament to this fact. It is disturbing to compare the speeches of today with

those. There is much speculation as to the presidents health in that regard.

Maybe calling GWB stupid IS unfair, particularly if his decline in mental cognition

is organic. My apologies to George Bush for calling him stupid. There are a

whole host of other words that are more appropriate, but I got lazy in my

writing. Next time I'll crack open my thesaurus and express myself more

colorfully and accurately and less like the juvenile I am not.

[francishsu]

In the spirit of reconcilation, perhaps we could move our discussions from the economy to friendlier pastures such as school choice/vouchers, abortion, affirmative action, stem cell research and separation of church and state.

[6th Gen local]

I am still waiting to hear more good points about Granholm.

Seriously, if she is so great, why is the state in the position (economically, educationally, and more) which is way behind the rest of the US?

Its Bush's fault!

[6th Gen local]

Look, michaelskis, we all know by now who you will vote for.

Good for you!

Keeping in mind what DeVos SAYS he will do in order to get the job is

different than what he actually WILL do, I read your list cynically.

Dick is not very bright. It has been brought to my attention that employees

of Amway/Alticor had great fun laughing at him behind his back. He is

a lightweight. He is a rich kid who thinks money is power. And it is.

But I prefer brains.

Here is what you have to understand: the very rich HAVE TO SPEND

THE MONEY!!!!! OR they can pay it out in taxes

(or maybe not, since they have a VERY good friend in the White House.)

They aren't spending their hard earned lunch money around town,

they are spending all the interest - IT HAS TO GO!!! So why NOT invest

in the city and make themselves look good in the process? And who

doesn't appreciate it? We all do - but give me a break - it's about good

business, the tax man, the accountant, ambition, and conceit that drives

that giving, not getting us all excited.

Also keep in mind, there are other very wealthy people in GR who

give and give and give and DON'T allow their name on a building,

or a school, or a room. This happens to be the particular obsession

of the DeVos and VanAndel families (to the amusement of the others)

It may be hard to understand that kind of wealth, but putting out

millions doesn't even BEGIN to touch the wealth that they have, so stop

being overly impressed with it.

Dick DeVos is running because his "let them eat cake" wife is unelectable.

Since she inserted foot in mouth a couple of years ago, she has to sit

tight before she can go with her ambitions again. So we have Junior.

The economy in Michigan sucks right now. ALL THE MONEY IN THIS

COUNTRY HAS BEEN HIJACKED BY THIS ADMINISTRATION and I will not

support ANY republican/conservative/right wing fundamentalist hack

who supported this idiot president in his crusade of democracy through

the barrel of a gun at the expense of the rest of the country.

Michigan is a state. I don't want Michigan to turn into a corporation.

That, my friend, is facism, and that is where this entire country is

headed. Do yourself a favor and crack open some history books and

read the constitution. I'm voting for Jennifer Granholm because she

supports the Constitution of the United States. I will not vote for

a man who supports through his political ties a party who is driving

this country to facism. (Look up the word, GWB uses it incorrectly.)

Jennifer Granholm is smart. She's fighting a powerful machine. She has

little support with the legislature. Wait for the debates. If you adhere to

the folksy style (read - stoopid) of GWB, then you're in for a treat.

If you don't want a WOMAN who has brains, compassion, fairness,

and balance, then you've got your guy! Be happy with your choice

and know you are not going to change anyone's mind with your

cheerleading.

Now here's where I'm supposed to apologize for the rant or insert a

little smilie, but I refuse - I've listened to all of you Dick supporters

long enough. (pun intended)

Have a nice day.

[6th Gen local]

And to Yankeefan, I appreciate your passion but I believe my fellow forumers

- whether they agree with me or not - have come to recognize that my

posts and responses are ALWAYS well thought out. And while I occassionally

fail to do my homework - and am the first to apologize when I am factually

incorrect - I CLEARLY am not, by definition, IGNORANT.

AND, I haven't been an adolescent since 1969...if you had called me that

in person, I would have taken it as a compliment.

Oh, and about ten years ago, GWB WAS able to rattle off complete sentences.

There is a video or two on you tube when he was gov of Texas that are a

testament to this fact. It is disturbing to compare the speeches of today with

those. There is much speculation as to the presidents health in that regard.

Maybe calling GWB stupid IS unfair, particularly if his decline in mental cognition

is organic. My apologies to George Bush for calling him stupid. There are a

whole host of other words that are more appropriate, but I got lazy in my

writing. Next time I'll crack open my thesaurus and express myself more

colorfully and accurately and less like the juvenile I am not.

I fear that this may get me "yankeefan-ed", but what a bunch of Partisan BS.

[Rizzo]

All this back and fourth between you all is probably why there is so many undecided voters... MAYBE IT'S BECAUSE THEY'RE SICK OF THIS CRAP.

[francishsu]

I'm under the impression that there are so many undecided voters because they don't know much about Devos yet.

[GRDadof3]

FWIW, I'm still undecided. Would I like things to get a lot better in the State? Sure I would. But for me the burden of proof falls on Devos, not on Granholm as the incumbent. I feel our State is going through a massive fundamental paradigm shift that no one can control, they can only try to lessen the blow.

Job growth: I don't think slashing every tax in sight is at all going to solve the problem. In fact, I read an analysis lately that over 600,000 jobs will need to be created to offset the lost revenue from the SBT. Michigan hasn't added that many jobs since the 90's (it took the entire decade to create that many jobs) and I don't see how eliminating a small tax like SBT will do that. I don't live in Michigan because I want to pay low taxes. I live here because of the quality of life, the great friends and family here, and the abundance of beautiful scenery and recreation. If I applied the "Walmart" principle to where I wanted to live, I'd move to Mississippi or Florida or some other Gawd-awful Southern State, but at least I'd have low taxes . Find a way to attract jobs without cutting taxes Dick (by creating a product that everyone wants to be a part of) and I might get on board your train. Stop running half-suicidal people on TV telling me how bad I should feel right now. Show me some hope and what's great about Michigan.

In my opinion, some of the initiatives that have come out lately from Granholm are exactly what we need to stimulate job growth without sacrificing our quality of life.

Education: I believe (and maybe incorrectly) that the cuts to education and the universities is directly because of falling tax revenues. Not because of diverting money to other endeavors.

Abortion: I don't see that being a big issue this election cycle.

Environmental protection and revitalization of the inner cities: I think Granholm has done well in these categories and I would like to see them expanded.

Other than that, my assessment of Dick Devos:

I don't like him. I couldn't even understand 1/2 of what he said in the first commercials he ran, and the public appearances he made. He's too much of a fast talker for me. I have NOTHING against rich people, but this guy bugs me. And I would even put more weight behind Rick Wagoner (CEO of GM) before I'd throw my weight behind a descendant of Amway. edit: never mind, just fanning the flames. But at the same time, am I grateful for their gifts to the community, civic pride, and not abandoning West Michigan: you betcha.

and localtalent, I missed the "dick" comment, or didn't catch the same meaning you did.

[egrguy]

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2006608300319

Michigan's median income has fell more then any other state over the past six years. I realize part of this fell within Engler's term. However, Granholm's spokesman kinda of dodges the issues that the Governor is party responsible for one of the worst economies in the country,

"We don't need another report to tell us Michigan has been challenged by economic global problems," said Liz Boyd, spokeswoman for Gov. Jennifer Granholm"

I know that too, and so does the rest of Michigan.

I could give much more support to Granholm if she would stop blaming all of the economic woes of Michigan on Engler, NAFTA, and President Bush (I admit that all three do have an effect on our state economy) and simply admit she hasn't been able to stop Michigan's foes, but here's my plan to improve that state over the next four years that can't be matched by my opponent.

But in my opinion, she's failed to do that, so like GRdad, I'm on the fence, hoping a candidate can sell me on their plans to improve Michigan's future.

[snoogit]

Current Republican Legislature has:

Established enabling legislation that allows cities to use From-Based Codes and New Urbanism tools to revitalize communities.

Redirected funds to open them up for public transportation including light rail and bus.

Attempted to increase funding for schools in the budget. (Vetoed by the current governor)

And many more that have been blocked or Vetoed by the governor.

DeVos would:

Eliminate the single business tax making it easier for entrepreneurs to stay in business. This is also where most of the people in the state are employed.

Reform health care and insurance in Michigan and improve support for new healthcare technologies, while lowering the cost for those who need it most (Children, Elderly, Impoverished)

Increase funding for education, especially to lower income area while encouraging the teaching of high tech skills such as computers, and encourage recent HS and College graduates to stay in Michigan by improving funding for job creation. (Right now we are close to last in terms of funding for education... which is a STATE function and not a federal one)

Support funding and state tax breaks on technology that will protect the environment such as alternative energy, public transportation, and recycling programs.

Support incentives for businesses to locate within older urban cores to help revitalize city centers.

Support and encourage improved communication with businesses and various government sectors. (He recently showed this by criticizing the White House when they refused to meet with the Auto Makers)

***Oh and they announced that the Michigan Median Income has dropped and is below the national average.

So why is it that no one will answer my question as to what good thing has Granholm done for Michigan?

Everything the legislature has passed had to also be passed by the Governor. And if it wasn't passed it either A: broke the constitutional law, or B:was the legislature playing partisan politics, so I ask, what has the legislature done for Michigan?

Where is there any case where they put bias aside, and actually got things done?

Don't be so quick to say Devos would:

1

2

3

4

Tell me how Devos would follow the constitution of the state by keeping a balanced budget.

[GRGridGirl]

Daddy-O:

Is there a way to see if any of the poll voters are new, new members to UP? I would be interested to see if folks signed up for UP just to vote in this poll.

(Civitas, have you been solicting your buddies to sign up???)

-3G4G

[Veloise]

...

-3G4G

I get it!