Downtown Raleigh Condos

[Justin6882]

This is a concern of many long-time downtown residents. I do feel to an extent that some of the areas they mentioned do need cleaning up, but not necessarily pushing out the residents that have been there for years. This is the price of progress, however, and its inevitable that some of these people will be priced out of the market. The stores they mention on Wilmington Street, however long they have been there, are dumpy, run down, and sometimes kind of scary. I wouldn't mind them all being either relocated, or forced to renovate and make them appealing. While I probably still wouldn't shop there, its important that our main streets in Downtown be inviting.

Pricey Downtown Condos Might Price Out the "little guys"

[nadcock]

As someone who has been looking to buy in downtown Raleigh I of course have been keeping up to date on all the new info like everyone involved in this forum. I couldn't help but notice the recent price drop in some of the less desirable units in the Hudson (from above 300K to upper 200s) and they are no longer exclusively listed under one agent. When I fist saw the prices on these I immediately thought who would pay that for something that looks like a prison. Yes this is prime real estate for the future but I dont know how much faith I have in the "build it and they will come" philosophy that so many developers have adopted. It is clear that The Paramount was a success and it seems that many developers are banking on the success of that project and flooding the market with pricey condos that may or may not sell. Perhaps this is just a problem for the Hudson (Dawson?) but I am looking forward to some more affordable projects like the proposed Raleigh Office Supply site. But who knows. Maybe that project will also raise their prices before all is said and done. Does downtown risk loosing its soul to a lot of upper middle class condo owners?

[1person]

As someone who has been looking to buy in downtown Raleigh I of course have been keeping up to date on all the new info like everyone involved in this forum. I couldn't help but notice the recent price drop in some of the less desirable units in the Hudson (from above 300K to upper 200s) and they are no longer exclusively listed under one agent. When I fist saw the prices on these I immediately thought who would pay that for something that looks like a prison. Yes this is prime real estate for the future but I dont know how much faith I have in the "build it and they will come" philosophy that so many developers have adopted. It is clear that The Paramount was a success and it seems that many developers are banking on the success of that project and flooding the market with pricey condos that may or may not sell. Perhaps this is just a problem for the Hudson (Dawson?) but I am looking forward to some more affordable projects like the proposed Raleigh Office Supply site. But who knows. Maybe that project will also raise their prices before all is said and done. Does downtown risk loosing its soul to a lot of upper middle class condo owners?

I wish there were more condos being proposed for <200K in downtown Raleigh.

[jlblaes]

The article below in the TBJ dicusses the crush of condos being built or planned downtown. The demand for luxury units may not meet the supply while smaller cheaper ones are more likely to sell.

http://triangle.bizjournals.com/triangle/s.../19/story2.html

JB

[Justin6882]

^ Precisely what we've all be screaming for a while on these boards. Lets hope the developers take notice and start bringing down the prices a bit. And how about a nice Apartment building, I would think that would do well downtown.

[nadcock]

I noticed this a few months back when I saw that the Hudson had actually put their listings on the MLS and not forced potential buyers to go through YSU and also dropped prices. I finally went and took a look at the units and despite lowering prices a tad you are still getting a very stripped down space. You have to put even more money into the unit to add finishes like hard wood floors.

I was really surprised to find out in the Biz Journal article that most of the units in the Paramount were reserved and not sold. Information that I had been getting led me to believe that most of them had actually been purchased. If they ever finish the damn thing then maybe that will be the case but evenso this really makes me skeptical of whether or not the condo boom will really last.

[avery]

^ Precisely what we've all be screaming for a while on these boards. Lets hope the developers take notice and start bringing down the prices a bit. And how about a nice Apartment building, I would think that would do well downtown.

No doubt. We have all been saying this for a while now. I think downtown ought to market to the younger professional whose income can't support a $350K+ condo. This segment of the population will ultimately find the convienence and excitement of downtown and its nightlife more attractive than families with kids. This will bring money into downtown and expand the job pool. I still think apartments would be a great addition to downtown. Even if developers still want to push higher-end residential, I think brownstones would be a great addition. Not everyone wants to be in a condominium complex. The brownstones offer a little more individuality.

I have friends that are single who would love to live downtown but can't afford it. I don't think developers should be thinking so exclutionary. Especially with the woes downtown has experienced in the past few decades. Man, if I only had a few million to drop on a lot in downtown....

[dmccall]

I don't think the Hudson is a great example of the true market, though. If I were looking at it, I would not be excited about all of the Fayetteville St. construction debris and noise right now. The immediate Fayetteville St. area is sucking wind right now, but once some bars and restaurants are open on a nice vista, F St. is going to be really really hot. It might almost be a great time to buy one cheap.

[paletexan]

I don't think the Hudson is a great example of the true market, though. If I were looking at it, I would not be excited about all of the Fayetteville St. construction debris and noise right now. The immediate Fayetteville St. area is sucking wind right now, but once some bars and restaurants are open on a nice vista, F St. is going to be really really hot. It might almost be a great time to buy one cheap.

very good point. If I had money to invest, I would buy a unit now in anticipation of 2008 when the major projects finish up.

[Jones_]

The distinction is very very important....the condo market is not overvbuilt but the luxury condo market is already. Those reservations are partly people who are holding units with no intention whatsoever of buying at the Paramount. You spend a few thousand bucks to hold one with the idea that the value goes up 10 or 20 thousand bucks while the place is being built.

I still say a building like the Paramount should be closer to the core and stick-built rows of townomes, like those on Lane near St Marys and those at Governors Point next to the Florian offices are what should be in this area. The Paramount on the Progress lot north of Progress II would be better in my opinion.

I have been working on a sort of land use idea in my head for downtown...something to marry the ideas of pedestrian friendly human scale stuff to the mega concrete and steel structures that give the city visual distinction. The Mega core gets the big residentlal with attached parking structures plus office high rises and fewer street cuts but still has ground floor retail as often as possible. This area would be bounded by Wilmington and Glenwood/West/RR Tracks and Peace and MLK. What this does is shifts the center of Mega developent off Fayetteville and provides a big rectangle where high-rise of all sorts would be encouraged. It gets us out of the linear mode along Fayetteville and makes Fayetteville the easten edge of super dense developement. Outside of this square are the neighborhoods that support all the daily life things like grocery stores and nightclubs. Boylan Heights, Martin Haywood, Blount Street redevelopment, areas west of Glenwood stay almost entirely residential with a decent amount of corner retail. I envision these areas to be like Capital Hill in DC where structures stay fairly low-rise. The proposed policy retactangle can go to 100 stories if it likes . I think most folks have alluded to this sort of setup before...so aI am not really sure why I took the time to write all this... I guess city policy does not clearly enough (the zoning and neighborhood plans do a little) define what it wants where and I am still unhappy with the Paramounts scale and what it did to land prices between Glenwood and St Marys street.

[ncwebguy]

What will it take to make "the numbers work" for reasonably priced condos? Building higher? Buildinging a few streets away from Fayetville? I would like to see brownstones on the east side of downtown, but no one (yet) seems to want to be the first to do it.

The "cheaper" units in Paladium Plaza is mostly spoken for... Hopefully someone will see that and build five stories instead of the 2-1-2 story configuration built there. There used to be some somewhat reasonable condos available above the Capitol Room, but those seem to not be listed any more. Instead of building two story 219k units, why not two one story 110k units? Is the cost of materials that much different? Or does no one want to live next to a $110k unit? Or (most likely) is this just developers just catering to the highest dollar without any forethought into the greater ramifications for the downtown community.

The east line of the "high rise box" should be at least Blount Street, if not Person or East. Wilmington is too restrictive, and does not give good east/west balance from Fayetville St. The downtown overlay district applies to this and draws the line at East Street. Also, the topography east of Person slopes down as you go away from downtow, then rises as you approach Chavis Way and beyond. There are some spectacular views of downtown right now (partially due to leaves being down in winter) along Hargett, Martin, Davie and Lenior streets.

There are (relatively) reasonable housing options on the east side. Several houses are under construction on Cooke street just south of Oakwood cemetary, but I think those are already sold out. A new stretch of homes on Bloodworth street have come on line in the last year or so as well, but I don't know if there is any available inventory left there.

There *is* an apartment building coming on line by 2007 if all goes to plan. Carlton Place will be diagonally southeast of the Moore Square Magnet Middle School with a mix of affordable and market rate units. Also, the "new" Chavis Heights will probably be partially on line by then as well, similar to Capitol Park near Seabord.

[avery]

Here is a link to downtown housing projects and their absorption rates. The study addresses the need for marketing the younger individual with less disposable income. According to this, the Paramount is doing okay on absorption. Take a look at Oberlin Court...yikes!

http://www.raleighnc.gov/portal/server.pt/...25209-30-05.pdf

[RaleighInvestor]

Most of the newer high-end condos - especially in the Glenwood South district have exceeded expectations.

The Hudson was built to be a more affordable alternative, but has attracted very little buyer attention. This is of course, in part, due to the rocky start of the project and the bad press that it received.

I wonder if the quality of the finishes inside of the units is poor (which goes hand in hand with being a more affordable alternative).

[Jones_]

Most of the newer high-end condos - especially in the Glenwood South district have exceeded expectations.

The Hudson was built to be a more affordable alternative, but has attracted very little buyer attention. This is of course, in part, due to the rocky start of the project and the bad press that it received.

I wonder if the quality of the finishes inside of the units is poor (which goes hand in hand with being a more affordable alternative).

The Hudson was certainly not built to be a more affordable alternative....perhaps you are mistaken. Prices without upgrades are around 220 a square foot after the price reduction. Paramount and 510 Glenwood initial prices were around this amount. Cotton Mill and Park Deveraux were substantially less when first built. If anything is slightly more affordable I would say Byrum condos and Martin St condos are more affordable at 120ish and 160ish a square foot respectively.

Person Point too at about 120ish.

[avery]

I guess city policy does not clearly enough (the zoning and neighborhood plans do a little) define what it wants where and I am still unhappy with the Paramounts scale and what it did to land prices between Glenwood and St Marys street.

Isn't 222 Glenwood going to be on a large scale too? Even the Quorum is what I consider large scale.

The land prices will adjust accordingly to the demand for the area. If developers lose interest due to the price of the land, prices will go back down. Yes, it may take time assuming that the Paramount is a flop, but who says it will? It is far too early to tell IMO. Downtown and Glenwood South resurgance is still relatively new and this may be what the area needs.

I don't think the city should get too aggressive with its plans to where they dictate all of the development. That can hurt just as much as any one project. Imposing height limitations to x# of floors might be okay, but nothing too restrictive.

[ChiefJoJo]

Isn't 222 Glenwood going to be on a large scale too? Even the Quorum is what I consider large scale.

I believe it's 140 units, so yes, it would be large. Significantly larger than the Paramount.

[pack-man]

Its ashame that affordable units don't really exist downtown, hopefully this is something that will change. However, I don't see it happening all that much. I feel bad for some of these people that invested heavily into these downtown projects that really just wanted to be downtown and couldn't totally afford it.

I think that there are some developers that will step up and build these cheaper units. Why not, they sell like hotcakes

[Jones_]

Isn't 222 Glenwood going to be on a large scale too? Even the Quorum is what I consider large scale.

The land prices will adjust accordingly to the demand for the area. If developers lose interest due to the price of the land, prices will go back down. Yes, it may take time assuming that the Paramount is a flop, but who says it will? It is far too early to tell IMO. Downtown and Glenwood South resurgance is still relatively new and this may be what the area needs.

I don't think the city should get too aggressive with its plans to where they dictate all of the development. That can hurt just as much as any one project. Imposing height limitations to x# of floors might be okay, but nothing too restrictive.

222 has alot of units but is around 5 stories tall...not too imposing. Quorum is rather tall, *somesize*-rise depending on your definition. It fits nicely into my retangle for super structures actually. 222 also is about the max I had in mind for areas outside of the rectangle. Even though land prices are very high downtown, as discussed in other threads, and by the developers of the Raleigh Office Supply site, when you go above a certain height construction materials cost force the price of units up faster than the offset due to spreading out the land cost. As far as dictating what goes where, like I said, there is some stuff in place already...Paramount did a nifty dance around what was intended for its site though....it meets the height limitation for the site at any given point but the structure from lowest point of foundation to highest point is almost twice what city planners wanted. A developers willingness to spend money and the city being glad to have some part of downtown booming, led to easy ultimate approval. The rolling hill down Boylan from Peace would be awesome for Brownstones, Paramount would look better overlooking City Market IMO. After I win the lottery I will develop a couple of blocks downtown and show you what I have in mind

[avery]

The rolling hill down Boylan from Peace would be awesome for Brownstones, Paramount would look better overlooking City Market IMO. After I win the lottery I will develop a couple of blocks downtown and show you what I have in mind

You and me both

[orulz]

222 Glenwood, as proposed, is 8 stories tall.

Quorum is the first really "different" (as in, taller - tower style rather than a "block") residential project in downtown Raleigh. It will be interesting to see how sales go.

Jones133, I kind of like the idea of letting Raleigh's center for large-scale development grow westward from Fayetteville. In particular the blocks between Dawson and Salisbury are filled with very few buildings of significant scale, and most of the low-rises that do exist are architecturally forgettable and have poor urban form. That means that there is plenty of vaguely-defined "potential" in the area, for when momentum really gets rolling downtown.

[avery]

222 Glenwood, as proposed, is 8 stories tall.

Quorum is the first really "different" (as in, taller - tower style rather than a "block") residential project in downtown Raleigh. It will be interesting to see how sales go.

Jones133, I kind of like the idea of letting Raleigh's center for large-scale development grow westward from Fayetteville. In particular the blocks between Dawson and Salisbury are filled with very few buildings of significant scale, and most of the low-rises that do exist are architecturally forgettable and have poor urban form. That means that there is plenty of vaguely-defined "potential" in the area, for when momentum really gets rolling downtown.

I think with the location of the Quorum, Clarion, and Paramount that it makes sense for large-scale developments to push westward. I'm sure Reynolds will end up doing something large-scale on his property as well. The famed view coming into downtown from the south would showcase this area more than to the east. As it is, you can't really see the Progress Energy building. I also think that Capital Blvd, Glenwood and Hillsborough are major gateways into downtown which offer great views.

[Jones_]

222 Glenwood, as proposed, is 8 stories tall.

Quorum is the first really "different" (as in, taller - tower style rather than a "block") residential project in downtown Raleigh. It will be interesting to see how sales go.

Jones133, I kind of like the idea of letting Raleigh's center for large-scale development grow westward from Fayetteville. In particular the blocks between Dawson and Salisbury are filled with very few buildings of significant scale, and most of the low-rises that do exist are architecturally forgettable and have poor urban form. That means that there is plenty of vaguely-defined "potential" in the area, for when momentum really gets rolling downtown.

The ridgeline that Bridgestone and Buffalo Tire are sitting on would present new highrise buldings quite well, and they would show up well in our classic "money shot" from South Saunders. Downtown does not yet feel like an Area or a Place to me yet, but more a collection of strips. I am just trying to envision a complete package version of downtown, beyond even what is being planned. You really can't go east beyond Blount and street configurations north and south hem things in.....long range a couple of towers (30-40 stories) on Hillsborough and a couple between Dawson and McDowell and you have boxed in a nice downtown business district. Ring this highrise section with about 20 more Dawsons and Park Deverauxs and you have the step down in scale yet plenty of people to keep the whole thing jumping day and night. I realize the city is doing alot already but I would like to see the entire downtown streetscape addressed...aesthetic sidewalks, healthy plantings, boom traffic signals (Martin and Dawson still has a signal hanging from a wire), large and easy to digest info signs, larger street name signs, smooth out the ashphalt (how about the big dip into the culvert on Dawson at Martin?). I am just so eager for all the 2008 stuff to come online, and Fayetteville to finished up with Hargett and Martin 2-wayed its killing me.

[avery]

I realize the city is doing alot already but I would like to see the entire downtown streetscape addressed...aesthetic sidewalks, healthy plantings, boom traffic signals (Martin and Dawson still has a signal hanging from a wire), large and easy to digest info signs, larger street name signs, smooth out the ashphalt (how about the big dip into the culvert on Dawson at Martin?). I am just so eager for all the 2008 stuff to come online, and Fayetteville to finished up with Hargett and Martin 2-wayed its killing me.

I think these aesthetic things you are talking about would be nice. I think street signage with lighting and landscaping would go a long ways to tying things together.

[orulz]

Speaking of aesthetics, there are a lot of places west of downtown that could benefit from buried power lines.

And a fresh coat of asphalt can go a long way towards improving the aesthetics of an area. Note how much nicer Peace Street looks. Repave Hillsborough, too, then bury the power lines on both streets, and the major retail corridors west of downtown would be immeasurably more attractive.

[MarcH]

I noticed this a few months back when I saw that the Hudson had actually put their listings on the MLS and not forced potential buyers to go through YSU and also dropped prices. I finally went and took a look at the units and despite lowering prices a tad you are still getting a very stripped down space. You have to put even more money into the unit to add finishes like hard wood floors.

I think the developers of the Hudson have hurt themselves by the way they chose to finish the units. I went to an open house there in Nov. Every unit was open, and EVERY unit was finished in the exact same style: bare concrete floors, white walls, and all white cabinets and countertops in all kitchens and bathrooms. Cool looking, but in a very sterile, ultra-modern style that will appeal to a few, but will probably turn off the large majority.

Considering that the Hudson is by no means cheap, and adding the additional money most potential buyers would have to spend to personalize one, there are probably a lot of more attractive options.

On the bright side, I doubt that slow sales units at the Hudson are anthing to worry about for DTR as a whole.