Downtown Raleigh Condos

[Jones_]

TBJ Article

Are you listening developers? I would think selling more cheap units is more profitable as you get to make $$ off each wall you install, each sink you plumb and each front door you key.

[avery]

Opinion column in today's paper. Unsure of how I feel about this, but they do bring up a good point.Living downtown, Affordably.

[ChiefJoJo]

I feel that there are still a few places that you can go to live affordably in DT. You have the prairie building on Wilmington St. Capital Aptmts has reasonable rents, and near DT, Capitol Park and the future Chavis Heights developments have affordable housing components. Martin Place isn't too expensive. Then there was an announcement of the apartments that will go on the site east of Moore Square, along with the future Progress Energy development where Coopers is located.

I agree that more should be done in this area, but I am of the opinion that we need these projects all to go forward to allow the momentum to continue. I feel we are about two years away from an official boom, where most of these public and private projects will be complete.

[capitalapts]

This is arguably off-topic, but the column references a "$2 million towards preservation of the Century Post Office." What/where is the Century Post Office?

[Justin6882]

Its the white building across from the RBC lot on Fayetteville St. and next to the Wake County Courthouse. Its about 3-4 stories tall, and old, but one of my favorite buildings on the street.

[capitalapts]

Its the white building across from the RBC lot on Fayetteville St. and next to the Wake County Courthouse. Its about 3-4 stories tall, and old, but one of my favorite buildings on the street.

Thanks, of course, that building. It is a beautiful building-evokes lots of DC architecture.

[ncwebguy]

East of Moore Square, Carlton Place, a four story mixed income development with street level retail, is now under construction and will probably be completed in early 2007. It (and the Prarie Building) are DHIC president and co-author Gregg Warren's projects. The new Chavis Heights are only a few blocks away. Two blocks north of Carlton Place is the Gordon Smith block of apartments. In the last week, orange fencing has gone up around a couple of the older unused houses there. Capitol Park is just north of the state government corridor.

In addition to all this, there are also several Raleigh Housing Authority managed apartment complexes in the neighborhood just east of downtown, and several hundred Shaw University students live a block or two away. I don't know what they for housing, but I'd guess it is affordable. Community development contiues to buy dilapidated houses in the neighborhood, fixes them up, and sells them to first time, low to moderate income hownowners. The budget and economic development committee of city council met to discuss selling four parcels in Martin-Haywood to DHIC below cost. There are plenty of fixer-uppers in the neighborhood as well, if you can get the slumlords to sell their property.

This article only looks inth the core of downtown and turns its back on the reality of the neighborhood just east. Why? Because no matter how much affordable housing exists, in their opinion, there always needs to be more. Putting too much affordable housing at the exclusion of anything else led to the downfall of the neighborhoods south and east of downtown. Over the last 20 years, tens of millions of dollars have been pumped into the neighborhood, but what do they have to show for it? Things are only now improving, mostly because of new "immigrants" such as myself. They claim to want to attract young professionals and artists, but anyone who makes over $25-30,000 a year is SOL. If you are not African-American or Latino, they think you don't need help and can live somewhere else. DHIC has been given several inches, now they want their mile.

The Downtown Raleigh Alliance wants affordable housing? Let them build it themselves. No one is stopping them. Itf they want housekeepers to work in the new Marriot living close enough to walk to work, give them priority in Carlton Place, Chavis, etc.

[ChiefJoJo]

Article on development proposals for Martin-Haywood here.

[Damien]

Is Martin-Haywood the area with that ugly blue/gray vinyl siding apartment complex? That complex seems so out of place.

[ncwebguy]

Two people from the neighborhood wanted single family, detached housing at the community meetings, so this is what Community Development is moving toward "with the public's input". The majority of citizens on the task force wanted affordable townhouses and/or condos, but were ignored. Now city staff is shutting out citizen/neigborhood input during the proposal review process.

Two of the "lots" in question already have houses on them (600 block of East Hargett). They have been done for months, sitting empty while the city figures out how to sell them. Why the rush now? Because David Meeker is moving in right down the street.

I don't know who to root for, since no plans have been shown. I have a feeling the Gordon Smith plan would move existing houses from his proposed apartment block (bound by Hargett, Bloodworth, Martin, and East) to free it up. None of the other proposals mentioned have shown any interest in the community until this real estate give away. All of this land has been purchased with Community Development Block Grant funding, so it needs to go to low and moderate income housing. But the market rate for housing has gone up a lot in other parts of the city, and now those numbers are being applied to this area due to its proximity to downtown.

There are ugly apartment complexes all over Martin-Haywood, so I don't know which one you are asking about.

The boundaries are East Hargett, South Swain, East Lenoir, and Alston and Camden streets to the east.

There is a Raleigh Housing Authority complex at the SW corner of Camden and Hargett, a strip mall/convenience center on the 700 block of East Martin (east of Haywood), a series of apartment complexes on the east side of South Swain, the new Chavis Heights to the south, and a mish-mash of buildings between Davie and Lenoir.

[Raleighsfinest]

So basically, talk of breaking up predominately black communities is just cool huh? I've never been for regentrification and never will. Racism is as prevalent now as it was 100 years ago, it has just changed forms (litigation). Regardless of what the newspaper says. The Halifax Court project was a social disaster, and that's from the people who actually lived there have to say. Only sprinkled amounts of elderly and upper middle class families live there.

Someone asked how is the racial atmosphere here in Raleigh a couple of months ago. That really struck me. There is an obvious polarity between races and economic situations. This city is not much better than anyplace else in the U.S. So basically the only thing that can be said is "it's not as bad as some places." That's not to say that it's good either.

I mean take a look at some of the locations,roadways and facilities that are paid with taxpayer money in this city. Southeast Raleigh does'nt exist! The situation between SE and the rest of the city is polarizied. The streets of State,E. Martin, Hargett, etc. were considered SE Raleigh up until recently. Now that DT living is the new hip thing, now it's time for the land grabs.

I agree wholeheartedly that the actual citizens of those parts of town should have a total say so on what is to be allowed and not allowed in there neighborhoods. They should also be informed completely of the actions that are being forced upon them behind their backs, by a rising upper class that wants them out. I think alot of what happens in regentrification is false propaganda. It's easy to apply when the people are poor, hard working, under educated, and have alot of personal problems that the average silver spoon cannot imagine. Most of the people there lose out, because they don't think they have an opinion.

The discussion of land grabbing of DT southeast Raleigh is no different than the Berlin Conference.

[ncwebguy]

What was the social disaster of Halifax Court? The change from mixed-race housing project to unsafe blight

brought about by the introduction of illegal drugs to the inner city? Or the demolition of the Halifax Court and construction of Capitol Park? Capitol Park has the residents of Halifax that *should* have been there -- single mothers and other low income workers. There is no upper middle class residents in Capitol Park. It may look like that since the townhouses are taken care of, but that is the idea -- a housing project that doesn't look like a housing project. The elderly live in the assisted living center and the upper middle + folks live in Pilot Mill, which was never part of Halifax court. It was built on empty land next to the formerly abandoned mill/EPA brownfield.

The only area on the southeast side of DT that is traditionally black is South Park and Shaw University. The other neighborhoods underwent white flight due to block-busting, where a black family purchased a home, performed as little maientance as was allowed. Their neighbors in turn sold at a loss to other black families, and the process was repeated the next block over. When the shoe is on the other foot, it is goes from being social progress to racism?

The difference between SE Raleigh and the rest of the city in infrastructure etc. over the last 30+ years is due to fighting any city initiatives. Attempts to fix things up were met by resistance from people claiming the city was kicking people out, so the city did nothing. Hargett, Martin, State, Haywood, etc are now and always will be in Southeast Raleigh. What southeast Raleigh is, however, will change.

Nothing is being done behind anyone's back -- it is done in plain sight, but few people are there to witness it. The slumlords have taken advantage of the poor and undereducated, kicking out anyone who complains to the city about unsafe living conditions. They put up with so much because they can't afford much else, and fight improvements to the neighborhood to keep the status quo.

While cutting my grass Saturday afternoon, someone felt the need to break a half full 40 oz malt liquor bottle on my sidewalk. I promptly cleaned it up, as I have done several clean ups through the neighborhood. Is this "false propaganda"? No. Few residents want to help out, and those that do want to be paid. I've helped organize a neighborhood watch, but 80+% of people interested are the ones that are new to the neighborhood.

The neighborhood has been beaten down for so long, it doesn't know which way is up. Outsiders from any side telling them what to do is unacceptable, but unavoidable. I want a racially and economically diverse neighborhood, but too many others see things only in terms of black and white.

[avery]

City's press release on the sale of 4 Martin-Haywood homes.

Martin-Haywood

[danclever]

We've all heard about the exploding cost of steel and other building materials. Labor is harder to line up too. To what extent do you think this will stifle or freeze redevelopment in the downtowns?

This an article from last week's Herald Sun about the rising costs of the Performing Arts Center in Durham. A number of factors have driven up the cost on this, but construction cost is definitely one of them.

http://www.herald-sun.com/durham/4-746008.html

[avery]

I think that it is hard to gauge what impact it will have. Projects that have already started will probably continue with little change. As long as the demand is there, I don't see a huge impact. I think the developers with pockets that are not as deep will be affected most. It may cause them to rethink certain aspects of their offerings to scale down costs.

I'd be more concerned with rising leasing rates in downtown. This could cause demand to slack off a little. Thankfully, it appears that demand is still hot and it has not mattered to downtown developers thus far.

[ChiefJoJo]

link... discuss...

On a positive note, the Planning Dept is looking at these new regs to allow more density and bring prices down:

...part of the July 25 public hearing (last night)... TC-16-06:

Beginning with a standard 40 units/acre, the new DOD regs give density bonuses of an additional 40 units/acre for each of ten conditions met:

(I) location/preservation... (1) location (ie, transit), (1) historic landmark (ie, natl register properties)

(II) urban form... (3) parking deck, (4) retail

(III) amenities... (5) low income housing, (6) open space, (7) architectural style, (8) public amenities, (9) environmental design, (10) public art

... up to a maximum of 320 units/acre

EX: If a developer wanted to build dense and tall, they could start with 40 units/acre, then TTA bonus (+40), then parking deck (+40), then retail (+40), then arch style (+40), and LEED cert. (+40), they would be allowed to build 240 units/acre, which could be quite tall for a 3/4 acre site.

I spoke on this item last night at the hearing, and it's VERY GOOD news IMO (if it passes), as it allows developers more flexibility to build more dense and (cheaper per unit) projects in more locations than before.

I'm sure the Planning Commision and Council will hear more comments on this before they approve them.

[ncwebguy]

What actually happened at last night's council meeting reguarding this downtown housing zoning?

Was it referred back to the Planning commission? Sent to some other committee? Quotes like this are encouraging, but is meaningless unless something is actually passed.

"Moderate-priced housing is a key element for a really successful downtown," Mayor Charles Meeker said. "So far, that element hasn't been filled out at all. That's part of the market that isn't being served but needs to be served for downtown to be successful."

"Low $200ks" is still out of reach for most, if not all, of the "mid-range" types. Buildings like 510 Glenwood and Dawson on Morgan have a few huge units to make enough money *and* meet existing zoning regulations. This council is (slowly) realizing that restrictions are eliminating the ability to have quality (relatively) affodable housing stock in downtown.

Maybe the Moore Square East project, Bloomsbury Estates, etc. are in a holding pattern waiting for this potential density increase?

[ChiefJoJo]

It has to do with the Downtown Overlay District, and how much density is allowed within. There was a hearing on the item, which is a text change in the zoning code--obviously, I spoke in favor of it. I believe it goes before the Planning Commission next, then perhaps either to committee (and back to PC) or to Council for approval.

I had posted this under the Blvd Centro project topic across the street from me, but it looks like they pulled out even before this came up. My interest is in making low-moderate cost units more viable for developers, and this is code change is one way to do it I think.

Here's the code.

[pdxheel]

See link to article on inner city condo development: Many condo projects on hold, or canceled. Sounds as though developers are backing out of projects because they can't find enough people to purchase their high-priced condos. I hope this is not an indication of what might happen in Raleigh or Durham.

[monsoon]

This is a tread that is happening all over the country. NC does not seem to be immune from it.

[urbanvb]

I think most of these cities or areas in the article are larger and already have a lot of units completed or under construction. Raleigh is growing like crazy and while I am not an expert I wouldn't see this to be an issue there - unless they were to continue to build high priced units that most people couldn't afford.

[dmccall]

I agree. I hope that isn't a bad sign. Althought they've been talking about that real estate bubble for awhile that we seem to be immune to. The other thing is that I wouldn't be surprised to see some of these project ultimately not end up with high end units. The market for high end is totally different than the middle, as many have addressed here. Hopefully if a developer saw a glut of high end coming, they'd modify their project instead of canceling it altogether.

[ChiefJoJo]

Raleigh is most certainly a "secondary" market. Most of the attraction of living here comes from the fact that there are so many people moving here from primary markets like Philly, NYC, DC, etc., who can afford a condo here since it's more affordable. I think the bubble most realestate experts will tell you is being felt in large markets like SF, San Diego, NYC, Seattle, etc. I think Raleigh is safe for now.

Also, to address the moderate income condo buyer (a HUGE untapped market), the city may look to alter the zoning codes to allow more density and smaller units. See details here.

[ncwebguy]

Just south of the Amtrack station in downtown Raleigh, there is a sign for a condo project that was to be completed in 2005. I don't remember the name of it, but it was to be on the old Jones Supply (?) land facing West street south of the tracks. I think it was to be done by the same company that put those townhouses just west of the train tracks north of Peace Street, but I am not sure.

The "high prices" for units here are nothing compared to the northeast, SF, LA, etc. But are there enough people who want to pay those prices for living here? Time will tell. The Hudson was mostly empty during the Art of Downtown Living tour, but that was while Fayetville Street was under construction.

It might make developers think twice about building and hoping the market absorbs it (see Blvd Centro) but the ones who do their homework and produce quality product at a price the market will bear will do fine. Density bonuses to allow residential towers will be the best way to create affordable units, but low to midrise (yet higher than existing density) on the edge of the urban core could also contribute units.

[Jones_]

Just south of the Amtrack station in downtown Raleigh, there is a sign for a condo project that was to be completed in 2005. I don't remember the name of it, but it was to be on the old Jones Supply (?) land facing West street south of the tracks. I think it was to be done by the same company that put those townhouses just west of the train tracks north of Peace Street, but I am not sure.

The "high prices" for units here are nothing compared to the northeast, SF, LA, etc. But are there enough people who want to pay those prices for living here? Time will tell. The Hudson was mostly empty during the Art of Downtown Living tour, but that was while Fayetville Street was under construction.

It might make developers think twice about building and hoping the market absorbs it (see Blvd Centro) but the ones who do their homework and produce quality product at a price the market will bear will do fine. Density bonuses to allow residential towers will be the best way to create affordable units, but low to midrise (yet higher than existing density) on the edge of the urban core could also contribute units.

It was (is) the Metropolitan and it is proposed by the Florian Companies (as opposed to the Preiss Companies). They are self marketing and I think that is why they never had the presales to pull the trigger (as opposed to using White Oak or York). I for one would love to see some 300/sqft projects called off and see more of Hatems conversions start up..assuming they are closer to say 150-200/sqft.