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Downtown Raleigh Condos


Justin6882

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Oh I agree with you there. Maybe Atlanta has a higher supply, and thus that keeps the prices in check?

Downtown Durham's condos are a tad more reasonably priced than Raleigh's, and may also improve with more available units.

But this issue has definitely been covered in here on many occassions. Everyone's got their own theory--land prices, construction prices, zoning, etc---to explain it.

All I know is, if they offered more reasonably priced ones here, there's definitely a big market for it. They'd certainly spend a LOT less money on advertising them, that's for sure!

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Ok, so I admit it, I watch HGTV!

And while watching an episode of House Hunters last week it appeared to me that the prices for condos in Downtown/Midtown Atlanta are much cheaper than those in downtown Raleigh! Why is this? The ones that they showed in Atlanta were very nice, all in mid to tall high rises, some had granite countertops, tall ceilings and all were around 900 sq ft. with pricing that me blew me away averaging around $175,000.00!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would think that you could build and sell out of a lot of those buildings in downtown Raleigh? :D

And yes, I know that there are more expensive ones in Atlanta as well!

While we're confessing to watch HGTV, I saw that episode as well. It does seem counter-intuitive. Midtown Atlanta is in proximity to world class amenities, and I'd expect the prices to be through the roof compared to Raleigh.

Only reason I can think of is an oversupply of condos in ATL now.

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Or perhaps an undersupply in Raleigh.

Something to note is that developers in Atlanta continue to turn out condo towers. Goes to show that a profit can be made at lower price points, a fact that developers have chosen to ignore so far in Raleigh.

Perhaps the $400,000+ luxury condo market is the "low-hanging fruit," where greater profits can be had with less actual investment - and the developers are trying to squeeze as much out of that market as possible before moving on to the "housing for the rest of us" where margins may be slightly lower.

I wonder if the density restrictions imposed by zoning have a hand in this as well. These restrictions came up previously in the thread about the now-defunct Boulevard Centro proeject on Hillsborough.

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Perhaps the $400,000+ luxury condo market is the "low-hanging fruit," where greater profits can be had with less actual investment - and the developers are trying to squeeze as much out of that market as possible before moving on to the "housing for the rest of us" where margins may be slightly lower.

i think that makes sense to a degree.

another way of seeing things is that there is a lot, well maybe not a lot but more than other cities, of room downtown to build luxury projects. once space starts to thin out, the only option is denser projects which brings about cheaper units.

thats just me thinking out loud though, i could be totally wrong.

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I think real estate agents, investors, and flippers have really inflated the price a little too.

What exactly does luxury mean? Seems like it is just a necessary word to put in front of the word condo these days. Is concrete floors and white walls in the Hudson luxury? Crown molding? Hardwoods? Granite countertops?

Will all these luxury features go away once the "low hanging fruit" is picked? Somehow I doubt it. Then what will the buyer who paid 400K for a condo do when new projects are selling for less?

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Perhaps some of the lower priced Atlanta units are being built in older buildings that in the past had served another purpose. I'm inclined to believe these kinds of units are generally cheaper. Aren't most of Raleigh's condos in newly constructed buildings?

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Perhaps some of the lower priced Atlanta units are being built in older buildings that in the past had served another purpose. I'm inclined to believe these kinds of units are generally cheaper. Aren't most of Raleigh's condos in newly constructed buildings?

For the most part. The Hudson is in an old Belk, but hardly recognizable from the original building and is one of the most used examples of a downtown Raleigh condo being over-priced for what you get....so hard to say. The only other major "re-use" we got that I can think of is the Cotton Mill...and they, too, are pretty pricy. But that goes back to supply vs. demand I suppose. While Durham is the opposite--most of their downtown condos are in renovated older buildings with very few new construction.

(By the way---any word on that really high-pricey Renaissance Tower condo building in Durham?)

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Perhaps some of the lower priced Atlanta units are being built in older buildings that in the past had served another purpose. I'm inclined to believe these kinds of units are generally cheaper. Aren't most of Raleigh's condos in newly constructed buildings?

Most of ATLs condos are new construction...some were developed on sites where older buildings were demolished...others in parking lots.

It is generally more expensive to convert an existing structure (considering age) especially when you factor in gutting interiors, environmental remediation, new code requirements and retrofitting modern systems in an old building.

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That is still ove 190 a square foot. Only in the last two years did our prices exceed that level with Paramount. Tucker Street and Palladium Plaza initially had prices at this level. I would say Atlanta and Raleigh our about right in line with each other.

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(By the way---any word on that really high-pricey Renaissance Tower condo building in Durham?)

I wish the word were "we're going to tear down that gigantic waste of space and build something described as mid-rise mixed-use," but that's not the case. I still see ads from time to time, but I wish they'd give up already. I'd love to just tear that whole thing down. It is a colossal waste of space.

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  • 2 weeks later...

The Charlotte paper published a story about Raleigh's downtown revitalization. This seemed a good place to post it.

Raleigh aspiring for a revved-up downtown

I note the following from that article: "Two other high-rises are in the works, along with retail shops, restaurants and 2,000 condominiums planned across downtown."

Have those highrises been discussed here?

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good article metro m. the two highrise projects might be Reynolds and Lafayette, but they are forgetting Site-1 and numerous smaller highrises, but that is ok. what surprised me most was looking at the comparison to downtown Charlotte. We have more retail space in downtown Raleigh, but there is a 15% vacancy for retail compared to Charlotte's 5%. Another thing is the number of hotel rooms. 600 some for Raleigh, while Charlotte has over 3000. We have got to do something bc Lafayette, Reynolds, and Site-1 are the only options for new hotel rooms now, and they arent even under construction. where are the hotels in Glenwood south or the warehouse district, barring of course the Clarion which borders both.

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good article metro m. the two highrise projects might be Reynolds and Lafayette, but they are forgetting Site-1 and numerous smaller highrises, but that is ok. what surprised me most was looking at the comparison to downtown Charlotte. We have more retail space in downtown Raleigh, but there is a 15% vacancy for retail compared to Charlotte's 5%. Another thing is the number of hotel rooms. 600 some for Raleigh, while Charlotte has over 3000. We have got to do something bc Lafayette, Reynolds, and Site-1 are the only options for new hotel rooms now, and they arent even under construction. where are the hotels in Glenwood south or the warehouse district, barring of course the Clarion which borders both.

That comparison chart did surprise me too with reference to the amount of retail and the convention centers. I know the retail number is right, however I will note that a lot of that is in Glenwood South...but I do know for a fact they they got the Convention Center size wrong for Charlotte. They state the convention center in Charlotte is 405,000 sq ft when in fact it is twice that size at 850,000 sq ft. On top of that they will be expanding the Convention Center with a new ballroom pushing that number closer to 900,000 sq ft.

In any case I think that all of this development going on in downtown Raleigh is a great thing. I enjoy my often visits to Raleigh and look forward to going again to check in on the progress.

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The article had quite an anti-Raleigh bias.

[Raleigh Wide Open]was essentially a 60,000-person party celebrating asphalt.

Umm, it was the street *and* the restaurants, culture, etc., around it. It was no more an asphalt celbration than Center City Fest/City Fest Live is, or Speed Street or the CIAA celebration.

Also:

- it did not cost $20 million to reopen Fayetville Street (just over half that)

- it didn't just happen over "the summer" but over the past year (and was debated for years before that)

- RBC's 32 stories will be for offices, condos, and retail, not just an "office tower"

- the livable streets URL is wrong

It is intersting that DT Raleigh's occupied retail space (1.25 M SqFeet) is more than DT Charlotte's available space.

For hotel rooms, the hotels on Capital just north of 440 served downtown, as did the Velvet Cloak Inn and Holiday Inn on Hillsborough Street. There is the Comfort Inn and a couple of bed and breakfasts in the North/northwest part of the city and Oakwood, but it is not enough.

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I wish the word were "we're going to tear down that gigantic waste of space and build something described as mid-rise mixed-use," but that's not the case. I still see ads from time to time, but I wish they'd give up already. I'd love to just tear that whole thing down. It is a colossal waste of space.

It's a shame because the tower itself looks great. It happens to be sitting on a giant parking deck with no street level anything whatsoever.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I have attended several ULI and side bar developer discussions where many of the people looking to develop downtown have expressed concerns over the real number of people buying.

It is getting a lot of hype, but they say the true sales information is not as postivie. Just last week somone pointed out The Dawson still has original units for sale (?). Knowing the profit is on the back end, that is kind of scary.

Curious to know other people's thoughts. If the pre-sales are not met, then some of these projects may be postponed or scrapped. Sometimes they are announced just to read the public interest level and then the decision is made whether to go or not.

Or are we lagging because of the average price point? It is pretty high. Where are the $200,000 condos?

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I have attended several ULI and side bar developer discussions where many of the people looking to develop downtown have expressed concerns over the real number of people buying.

It is getting a lot of hype, but they say the true sales information is not as postivie. Just last week somone pointed out The Dawson still has original units for sale (?). Knowing the profit is on the back end, that is kind of scary.

Curious to know other people's thoughts. If the pre-sales are not met, then some of these projects may be postponed or scrapped. Sometimes they are announced just to read the public interest level and then the decision is made whether to go or not.

Or are we lagging because of the average price point? It is pretty high. Where are the $200,000 condos?

I totally agree that the average price of downtown condos is outragous i have lived in atlanta before and in altanta they have condos starting from 175,000 dollars why cant this be acheived in Raleigh. And as for demand i know that currently i cant afford to live downtown so i know im not the only one. Also i know many of you disagree with me but there still isnt much to do downtown sure there's a few nightclubs and a bar here or there but what about something that would bring a more conservative crowd downtown? I think that raleigh is banking on the new covention center to bring downtown to life but what about when there is nothing going on at the ncc what will bring them then? More affordable condos are a must we just need the right developer to come in and show all the others it can be done.

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I go to school downtown, my mom works downtown, and my dad works at RTP. We have wanted to move downtown for abotu two years now, but there is nothing in our price range, so we can't. It really is kind of depressing. It's funny how for a while when a city is growing, downtown is for the rich and the poor. This is best demonstrated in pilot mill (a place we wanted to move because its right next to RCHS and i could walk to school) Pilot mill has affordable housing, and half-a-million dollar homes. NOTHING in between. But alas, I think this is pretty typical for downtowns in their early years, it'll cahnge eventually, just be patient. In 10-15 years there should be middle-class housing available. I just don't know why no one has capitalized on that, because I know TONS of middle class people who are tired of the suburbs, but whatever, developer's loss. As for now, I'll just dream about living downtown.

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I think The Dawson is a bad telltale. The remaining units are largely a bunch of loser floorplans that wouldn't make it in any market (they split large units into smaller ones). Yes there is a lot of speculative building in downtown, but given the disparity with the suburban building aggressiveness, the demand must actually be there for downtown.

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The Dawson does seem like a bad example beacause like the Hudson it is one of those projects that people are staying away from. I was looking into the RBC building and those units are already pretty much all reserved! Now I wonder how many of those reservations will stick and how many are actually people who are going to live there for a few years. I definately think there has been a lot of hype pushed by investors that has made the prices shoot through the roof and I agree that in comparison to other areas Raleigh really doesnt have that much going on in downtown proper. And not much is going to start happening if you don't provide housing opportunities for those hip young people that make a city move. On the current track we are going to have a bunch of well-to-dos that go to work and then come home to their plush condo...maybe go out to eat....but what else...

I am really interested to see if 712 Tucker can keep to its promise of those cheaper prices.

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