Downtown Raleigh Condos

[JeffS]

Or are we lagging because of the average price point? It is pretty high. Where are the $200,000 condos?

Demand's still there, but will eventually start to wane at these pricepoints. A decent rail system would have caused the market to skyrocket. That's not happening though. I wouldn't want to invest in the idea that food and drink will keep the market propped up indefinitely.

[c_harmons]

I just read the Charlotte Business Journal. They had a good long article about The Vue. A 51-story 400 unit condo tower starting construction downtown.

While I am excited about Raleigh, there is just NO way we are close to that happening here.

I keep asking why and I am actually starting to think it is because we do not have the right type of leaders. Nor the right type of business interest and influence.

Charlotte has a good City Council that is pro-business. The Charlotte Observer has a fulltime real estate reporter. The Business Journal is completely pro Charlotte and development. For crying out load after reading just one publication I am sold on Charlotte.

Compare that to Raleigh where we have a timid Council. A fractured Triangle of all the municipalities working for their own interests. A newspaper that loves controversy, and is far from pro business (if you do not believe me please read the editors views), a business journal that really only covers technology changes, and you see why Charlotte has professional sports teams, many Fortune 500 companies, and a booming downtown.

I always hear about it, but I am starting to buy into the Charlotte envy.

[cophead567]

^I get what your saying and i have to admit i kind of feel the same way. i feel the edge we have to charlotte is the areas tremendous growth. i'm hoping this will force these timid councils out and bring new leadership. its hard to be patient, i know everyone on this forum hates waiting for new projects to finish, but it is a slow process toward change.

someone elaborate more on this if you know, i'm going to research it a little, but at one point charlotte had a pretty "dead" downtown as raleigh's has been described. all of sudden, some leadership change, strong focus on downtown revival projects and the result is what you see today.

maybe we're on the same track, just not caught up.

[dmccall]

The Vue is a neat looking building, but it isn't like Charlotte has just blocks upon blocks of livable, urban streets. I think supertall condos are an insane proposal when there are still many empty lots. They, like we (remember that we still have over 100 places to build a tall building downtown), need to concentrate on building housing that still keeps its residents in touch with the street.

[paletexan]

someone elaborate more on this if you know, i'm going to research it a little, but at one point charlotte had a pretty "dead" downtown as raleigh's has been described. all of sudden, some leadership change, strong focus on downtown revival projects and the result is what you see today.

maybe we're on the same track, just not caught up.

[ChiefJoJo]

One thing Charlotte has that Raleigh does not is a much larger DT employment base. Uptown Charlotte has about 60,000 employees versus about 35k in Raleigh, and on top of that, the major DT Ral emplyer is NC state govt, hardly competetion for the BofA's and Wachovia's of the world. Someone already said it here, but it we had rail to RTP and Durham, you would see the DT market surge in a HUGE way. Imagine a guaranteed 30 min commute from your high end DT condo to your high-paying job at IBM, Cisco, or Nortel.

Here's a new N&O article on the low demand for large 3BR condos in DT Raleigh. The good news is the developers are paying attention to the market place with the other Dawson building and the West at North--no 3BR units in those condos at all. Also remember the city approved the new density guidelines for DT, so developers can now build more dense if they meet certain criteria. That equals lower priced units.

[serapis]

Raleigh actually has 40,000+ employees DT. I also believe that far exeeds the number of employees Charlotte had when it was Raleigh's size (circa 1987). I mean come on folk Charlotte is 660,000, Raleigh is 360,000. Raleigh is on the right path, right now.

If you want to compare something interesting, and that's the fact Raleigh has 500,000sqft more retail than Charlotte's 1,000,000.

[carynative]

that's incredible! what are your sources?

[ChiefJoJo]

According to the premier DT Raleigh promotional website, Raleigh has 31k workers:

Each day, over 31,000 people work in Downtown Raleigh. There is a wide variety of employers in Downtown - from large employers such as the Fortune 500 company, Progress Energy, the State of North Carolina with over 14,000 employees, and the City of Raleigh, to smaller employers such as retail shops, architectural firms, and law offices.

[sax184]

The Vue is a neat looking building, but it isn't like Charlotte has just blocks upon blocks of livable, urban streets. I think supertall condos are an insane proposal when there are still many empty lots. They, like we (remember that we still have over 100 places to build a tall building downtown), need to concentrate on building housing that still keeps its residents in touch with the street.

[uptownliving]

I think that Raleigh has a lot going for it and the momentum is definitely picking up for downtown Raleigh...just like some of the previous posts on here...don't worry so much what Charlotte is doing and don't copy us. What worked for us doesn't mean it will work for Raleigh. Work to make Raleigh a better place and be proud of where you have gotten so far. This coming from someone who lives in downtown Charlotte.

[MR-2]

I'd note that while Raleigh has 31k workers downtown, nearly twice Greensboro's statistic, Winston-Salem has something in the neighborhood of 28k, despite being smaller and lacking the boost of state government offices.

[JTsaysToYou]

In my life, I have learned that comparing yourself to others doesnt make you feel better. SO, Charlotte is great! I like that city a lot, and they have very nice buildings and add a lot to north carolina. But Raleigh is great too! and as for our "lack of momentum" That frankly doesn't exist. We have HUGE momentum. Within a period of four years or so, we will double our skyline. Lets recap

Now:

Two hannover

Wachovia Capitol Center

Progress I

Progress II

BOA building

Four years down the road:

RBC

Reynolds

Site 1

Lafayette

Mariott

New CC

Double the skyline + some in four years. Sounds like pretty big growth to me!

And I bet this isn't the end of it.

Not to mention, sites 2 and 3 are still open along with 5 and 6

Raleigh is great, SMILE!

[serapis]

According to the premier DT Raleigh promotional website, Raleigh has 31k workers:

Each day, over 31,000 people work in Downtown Raleigh. There is a wide variety of employers in Downtown - from large employers such as the Fortune 500 company, Progress Energy, the State of North Carolina with over 14,000 employees, and the City of Raleigh, to smaller employers such as retail shops, architectural firms, and law offices.

[ChiefJoJo]

WRAL story about the DT condo market.

[Beth Y]

My husband just hired a guy from SF and he says that this area is "all the buzz" there as being one of the "new hot places" to relocate. Both he and his girlfriend were looking at Raleigh as a place to move, even before they met. He is late 20's, and says they will likely be looking downtown, or close to it, to live.

Just thought it was a surprising perspective, but reassuring.

[dmccall]

I wrote the author and chastised him for the headline that condos are "pricey". Told him that the word implies lack of value and we should let the market decide.

BTW, I cannot stand the media using words like "pricey" and "expensive". It isn't their job to tell us when costs outweigh benefits.

[RaleighRob]

I'm afraid that just letting the "market decide" will result with the market deciding that our downtown will be an area "For the Rich, By the Rich". Then, those of us normal working folk won't be welcomed there.

That's not a downtown I'd support by no means.

[uptownliving]

I think having the RBC condos get all reserved up quickly is going to show that there is a market in downtown Raleigh where people are willing to pay good money for a good project. Hopefully the developers will get the message and bring some more stuff to the table.

[urbanvb]

A lot of factors go into determing a value of property such as location, size of property, land value etc. With Raleigh growing so quickly you may be at a slight disadvantage especially if most of the newcomers are moving there from areas which real estate is more expensive. They can more easily afford to sink 2-300k into a property when they sell their own property. Here in the Norfok and VB areas property in urban areas sells at a premium. Most new properies here sell upwards of $275k and most fall in the $325-400k range.

[North_Raleigh_Guy]

I only know one person who does (actually he moves in at the end of the month) but was wondering if other others would share their experience living in downtown condos.

The reason I ask is that from the pictures I see online they look really nice, but I have to admit I just don't feel that the prices are justified at this time. I know the people "Getting in on the ground Floor" today will probably be laughing all the way to the bank in a 5-10 years, but dropping $350K to live in a 1000 sq ft downtown condo in a 3rd tier city like Raleigh which still suffers the 9-5 syndrome (for the most part) seems a bit excessive at this point in time.

My friend who is going to live downtown doesn't even work downtown. The firm he works for is located out by Crabtree valley Mall! Just kind of seems counter intuitive. I heard that a lot of the units that have been sold are being sold to investors who are looking to flip them and make huge profits once downtown is really kicking, but I admit I don't know if that is true or not. I am not slamming downtown living, I would love to live there but I am already priced out of that market.

[JDC]

in a 3rd tier city like Raleigh which still suffers the 9-5 syndrome

[NCMike1981]

LOL I can afford my duplex near the Six Forks/Wake Forest Road intersection just inside the beltline but I think that's about the closest to downtown living that I'll be able to afford for a while until prices adjust (or I win the lottery)

[ncwebguy]

There is some affordable housing in/near downtown -- Gateway Park (South Saunders south of Western), Capitol Park (Halifax Street north of Peace College), Carlton Place (should be open soon), new Chavis Heights (under construction), etc. But those units are rarely, if ever, marketed since there already is a long waiting list for them.

I know many people who want an urban residence do not want a yard, but if you can manage it (and/or hate homeowner association dues) the area just east of downtown has "ground floor" prices. Even there, however, prices are starting to rise. There is an 826 sqft. house with next to no land for sale around the corner from me for $157,900. It is the only "fixed up" house on that block -- the rest look like they could fall over if a strong breeze came through. Someone added new appliances, refinished the hardwood floors, blew pine needles to cover the dirt front yard, and tacked on $60,000 for a few months work. Ugh.

Should we start "recruiting" downtown Raleigh condo residents to post here?

Maybe put up fliers at Times Bar, Borrough, etc. with the website? I was/am the Yahoo group admin for Urban Raleigh, a group set up to advocate for a lot of the things we discuss on here -- walkability, street level activity in new buildings, etc. It kind of fell apart when we had meetings once a month or every other month and only two or three people would show up. It is hard to set a time that a group of people can meet, which was the group's downfall. Forums like this make it easier to discuss topics at different times, but it is hard to push for any actual change.

With all that is going on downtown, I want to get it going again in 2007, but am not sure how to go about it.

[reed]

I live in a condo downtown & love it.

I don't think Raleigh is that unique as far as it being more expensive to live in the city center. If your opinion is that our downtown isn't worthy of the prices being charged, then obviously a lot of people disagree with you.

There are some more affordable options in the area, though (Person Pointe, Governor's Square, the houses just southeast of downtown, etc)