Do you think Islam is the enemy?

[Mith242]

I thought I had a good idea of the general response but I've seen a number of polls in the past couple of weeks that have surprised me a bit. I'm not going to post my feelings on this issue just yet. I'd like to see some votes and responses. I'm hoping we can have a rational discussion with everyone providing some different views.

[Cadeho]

No, extremism and fear-mongers are the enemy... that includes our government.

[Miesian Corners]

You could always rephrase your question and ask if Christianity is an enemy of the Middle East and Islam. Sure does seem there's enough history to prove that one.

[somad]

I wish you put an option for --- "not the religion itself, but the fascists who have hijacked it".. I voted "yes" because I knew with the way the question was presented not many people would vote "yes".

[Mith242]

I wish you put an option for --- "not the religion itself, but the fascists who have hijacked it".. I voted "yes" because I knew with the way the question was presented not many people would vote "yes".

Well that stems to the reason why I started this. I think there is an increasing amount of people in the US that don't see the distinction between that. There seems to be a growing trend of people who seem to believe that the actual religion itself as the enemy. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but it does worry me when people start viewing any religion in such negative terms.

[Gusterfell]

The greatest enemy of the West are the fascists in this country who have hijacked Christianity and the government. Without them destabilizing the Middle East and angering millions of Moslems, the fundamentalist Islamic movement would still be seen within the region as a whacko fringe group, and not a legitimate political force worthy of public support.

[FromCityToRural]

Not islam itself, just the extreme interpretation of it. I don't think there's much islam left in a terrorist anyway, that's just blind zealousness which would be dangerous no matter what faith, manifesto, or ideology it might once have originally been based on.

I do find it an interesting parallel, though, that Islam is now approximately the same age as Christianity was during the Crusades. Whether it means anything and what, I don't know. But it sure sounds smart

[Charlotteman]

Gusterfell I agree.

One thing I've learned in life is that when someone proclaims you are their enemy, you'd better damn well take it seriously. Islam has not proclaimed the West as it's enemy. But as we all know, there is a radical version of Islam that has most definitely proclaimed the West and Israel as their enemy.

We in the West can't shrug it off, and sweep it away and call it extremism......just in case some folks might not know, in Saudi Arabia there are actual religious schools (mostly informal) where young men are taught to hate the West. The Saudi royal family are generally afraid to repress this.

These aren't x-tian, or Jewish schools I'm referring to. They are Islamic.

When so so so many folks in the Muslim World have proclaimed me and my people as their enemy, I can't help but take it as something deadly serious. Not all Muslim people of course hate the West. I'm no xenophobe and I respect anyone's right to believe whatever they want:)

But when so many people of a religious faith have said you are their enemy, you shouldn't pretend it's not something pervasive.

[krazeeboi]

^Good points, Charlotteman.

[Gusterfell]

^Sure there's hatred toward the West in the Moslem world, but where does that hatred come from? It comes from years of watching American-made airplanes dropping American-made bombs by the thousands on their cities. It comes from our propping up repressive dictatorships in the name of our own economic prosperity. It comes from our invasion and occupation of a sovereign nation that was never the slightest threat to us. It comes from our imprisonment, torture, rape, and murder of hundreds of innocent civilians of that nation. It comes from our leaders' rhetoric that all this is somehow deserved by the Moslem world.

Yes, there is hatred and a threat there. However, our leadership's policy of continuing and intensifying the above is simply intensifying that threat. You will never end a terrorist threat through actions that drive more ordinary people to potentially violent hatred. That is why I say our greatest ememies are here, not there.

[Mith242]

Gusterfell I agree.

One thing I've learned in life is that when someone proclaims you are their enemy, you'd better damn well take it seriously. Islam has not proclaimed the West as it's enemy. But as we all know, there is a radical version of Islam that has most definitely proclaimed the West and Israel as their enemy.

We in the West can't shrug it off, and sweep it away and call it extremism......just in case some folks might not know, in Saudi Arabia there are actual religious schools (mostly informal) where young men are taught to hate the West. The Saudi royal family are generally afraid to repress this.

These aren't x-tian, or Jewish schools I'm referring to. They are Islamic.

When so so so many folks in the Muslim World have proclaimed me and my people as their enemy, I can't help but take it as something deadly serious. Not all Muslim people of course hate the West. I'm no xenophobe and I respect anyone's right to believe whatever they want:)

But when so many people of a religious faith have said you are their enemy, you shouldn't pretend it's not something pervasive.

Interesting points. Yes in Saudi Arabia there's a sect/branch of Islam called Wahhabi that's causing a lot of problems. They have ties to that area and gained control of Mecca I think back in the 20's or 30's. But that gives them a lot of leverage. But I'd also like to figure out just why is there so much anxiety between the West and some Islamic areas. I think some problems stem from the fact that both sides often times know little about each other and only see the bad aspects of each other. Sometimes I think the press on both sides are partially responsible. While the Islamic fundamentalists have been able to take advantage of the poor they've also been having better luck getting people from good backgrounds to join as well. I've heard some speculate that it might possibly due to the fact many don't understand why the Middle East isn't the major civilization it was 1000 years ago. And how the West was able to progress since Medieval times and their part of the world has regressed. One other aspect I'd like to point out, I think Europe is going to keep having quite a few problems. They've taken in many people from Muslim areas, either as 'guest' workers or people that were in former colonies. But in most areas of Europe people who have a Middle Eastern background and/or are Muslim are often discriminated against. They also pretty much make much less than the national average in each European country. No matter what religious, cultural or racial group that would be involved this always spells problems. At least here in the US people of Middle Eastern background or are Muslim generally make at above the national average. But I question whether these people are discriminated against here. I think if you discriminate and keep these people seperate then they can never be assimilated into the general population and culture. I guess what I'm trying to say if people keep treating them the way many people do then we're often times not giving them much incentive to feel a true part of our country. I feel there really needs to be a better dialogue between our two groups. There are obviously other factors I haven't even gotten into with my long winded post. But I think this is the direction we need to progress to. Anyway sorry to have gotten of the main focus here but just something I wanted to put out there.

[Snowguy716]

Calling an entire religion of 1 billion people the "enemy" of the west is plain ignorant and small minded. Anybody with that generalization power based on something as loose as "Islam" is pathetic.

It wouldn't be that much harder to think of the Muslims as the peaceful, freedom loving ones, and to call "The West" the enemy of Islam.

I don't even think this should be a thread...

[somad]

Calling an entire religion of 1 billion people the "enemy" of the west is plain ignorant and small minded. Anybody with that generalization power based on something as loose as "Islam" is pathetic.

It wouldn't be that much harder to think of the Muslims as the peaceful, freedom loving ones, and to call "The West" the enemy of Islam.

I don't even think this should be a thread...

It's nice to think that... but from what I understand they tend to think in the same absolutes that we as a society shy from doing. Not all Nazis were bad people, either... This enemy is perhaps even more dangerous than the Nazis.

It was mentioned before, but Saudi Arabia isn't the only country where kids are taught from day one to kill all Jews and Americans. Look at the enemy's tactics... they use children in battle and then if the child dies they portray him as an innocent civilian. They target "zionists" and "infidels" regardless of age or gender. It may be something that some people on this board disagree with, but I'm willing to say that for all our faults in this we are still the good guys and the terrorists are evil. Our "atrocities" aren't quite on the same level as what the terrorists have done... not by a long shot actually. Abu Grahaib? Guantonomo? These were prisoners of war. Let's not even get into the legalities of these because you can't honestly put us on the same level as people who kidnap and mutilate civilians. The same people who were dancing around the charred bodies of American contractors in Falluja or dancing in the streets in every Arab city on 9/11. From where we're at if we just pull out and leave them alone they'll think of it as a victory and will continue to attack Israel, and continue to plot against us and our allies. It's not that Muslims are all terrorists, but just about all of this specific enemy happen to be Muslims.

In the Western countries we have had national oil interests in mind when dealing with that region from the get go.. that's a fact that will not go away any time soon. Seriously ... any atrocities committed by our government are nothing compared to what they're doing. Two wrongs don't make a right, but come on....

[Mith242]

Calling an entire religion of 1 billion people the "enemy" of the west is plain ignorant and small minded. Anybody with that generalization power based on something as loose as "Islam" is pathetic.

It wouldn't be that much harder to think of the Muslims as the peaceful, freedom loving ones, and to call "The West" the enemy of Islam.

I don't even think this should be a thread...

I have to say I wish I didn't feel that I needed to start this topic. But I do think it's something that needs to be talked about. I would at least hope that it will make people think about this topic more and not just make quick judgements about this.

[Snowguy716]

I have to say I wish I didn't feel that I needed to start this topic. But I do think it's something that needs to be talked about. I would at least hope that it will make people think about this topic more and not just make quick judgements about this.

I can understand discussing the topic so that people don't pass quick judgments... I guess I just was thrown off by the title of the forum.

[Mith242]

It's nice to think that... but from what I understand they tend to think in the same absolutes that we as a society shy from doing. Not all Nazis were bad people, either... This enemy is perhaps even more dangerous than the Nazis.

It was mentioned before, but Saudi Arabia isn't the only country where kids are taught from day one to kill all Jews and Americans. Look at the enemy's tactics... they use children in battle and then if the child dies they portray him as an innocent civilian. They target "zionists" and "infidels" regardless of age or gender. It may be something that some people on this board disagree with, but I'm willing to say that for all our faults in this we are still the good guys and the terrorists are evil. Our "atrocities" aren't quite on the same level as what the terrorists have done... not by a long shot actually. Abu Grahaib? Guantonomo? These were prisoners of war. Let's not even get into the legalities of these because you can't honestly put us on the same level as people who kidnap and mutilate civilians. The same people who were dancing around the charred bodies of American contractors in Falluja or dancing in the streets in every Arab city on 9/11. From where we're at if we just pull out and leave them alone they'll think of it as a victory and will continue to attack Israel, and continue to plot against us and our allies. It's not that Muslims are all terrorists, but just about all of this specific enemy happen to be Muslims.

In the Western countries we have had national oil interests in mind when dealing with that region from the get go.. that's a fact that will not go away any time soon. Seriously ... any atrocities committed by our government are nothing compared to what they're doing. Two wrongs don't make a right, but come on....

I think you also have to keep in mind is you're just seeing a one side. But it's that one side that gets all the attention in the news. If all you saw were negative things in the news that doesn't mean nothing good happened. That and as far as Islam is concerned there are other sects that don't even accept Wahhabism. I think if you look at things in a broader perspective you might possibly see things in a different light. Horrible things have been done in the name of Jesus and God. Does this mean that Christianity is horrible and evil? I know this happened long ago but what about the Inquisition and what happened to the Native Americans when the first Europeans came over in the name of God? I could be wrong about this but doesn't the KKK use the Bible as a reference to it's own agendas? I'm not trying to turn this into bashing Christianity but if you looked at Christianity from a different limited perspective you might think rather negatively to it as well.

I can understand discussing the topic so that people don't pass quick judgments... I guess I just was thrown off by the title of the forum.

I'm not trying to force people to think the way I do. But if someone is going to hate a region or a particular religion I'd like to at least make people think to why they feel this way and try to rationalize it.

[suburban george3]

The greatest enemy of the West are the fascists in this country who have hijacked Christianity and the government. Without them destabilizing the Middle East and angering millions of Moslems, the fundamentalist Islamic movement would still be seen within the region as a whacko fringe group, and not a legitimate political force worthy of public support.

I agree completely. Why we think we can make the American model work in the Middle East is absolutely ludicrous. Our "extremists" of the Christian Religion have helped lead the US into creating and giving legitimacy to the "extremists" of the Islam Religion.

[somad]

I think you also have to keep in mind is you're just seeing a one side. But it's that one side that gets all the attention in the news. If all you saw were negative things in the news that doesn't mean nothing good happened. That and as far as Islam is concerned there are other sects that don't even accept Wahhabism. I think if you look at things in a broader perspective you might possibly see things in a different light. Horrible things have been done in the name of Jesus and God. Does this mean that Christianity is horrible and evil? I know this happened long ago but what about the Inquisition and what happened to the Native Americans when the first Europeans came over in the name of God? I could be wrong about this but doesn't the KKK use the Bible as a reference to it's own agendas? I'm not trying to turn this into bashing Christianity but if you looked at Christianity from a different limited perspective you might think rather negatively to it as well

The news has been suppressing a lot of the negatives that the Arabs have been doing.... Who still talks about the beheadings on a regular basis? They sure have been having themselves a field day with Jonbenet's killer. I didn't say that Islam was horrible and evil, but I did say that the radical Islamic populations view Judiasm and Christianity as evil. Are we supposed to say an enemy who wouldn't mind killing you or me, or a busload of schoolchildren in the name of Allah isn't evil? Just because bad things have happened at the hands of Christians in the past doesn't mean anything, and they'll still go after you even if you're an athiest. If you're not with them, you're an infidel.

I agree completely. Why we think we can make the American model work in the Middle East is absolutely ludicrous. Our "extremists" of the Christian Religion have helped lead the US into creating and giving legitimacy to the "extremists" of the Islam Religion.

While the execution has been nothing short of poor, I think there's no way you can say that an American model can't work in the Middle East. They're actually modeling the government in Iraq more after the British parliamentary system, aren't they? People said the same thing about the Germans and the Japanese after WW2. Any society can accept a free government by the people, for the people. I wish we forced their government to forbid the establishment of religion...

[Gusterfell]

It's nice to think that... but from what I understand they tend to think in the same absolutes that we as a society shy from doing. Not all Nazis were bad people, either... This enemy is perhaps even more dangerous than the Nazis.

Conservatives in this country are prone to the same sort of black and white thinking. How many times have we heard "you're with us or you're with the terrorists," or "a vote for a Democrat is a vote for another 9/11"

Our "atrocities" aren't quite on the same level as what the terrorists have done... not by a long shot actually. Abu Grahaib? Guantonomo? These were prisoners of war. Let's not even get into the legalities of these because you can't honestly put us on the same level as people who kidnap and mutilate civilians.

Prisoners of war have rights under international law, which is why the government has declared that they are not POWs. Our bombs have mutilated thousands more Iraqi, Palestinian, and Lebanese civilians than the terrorists could ever hope to touch.

...dancing in the streets in every Arab city on 9/11.

You're rewriting history. That happened nowhere but a few Palestinian settlements. That and Saddam Hussein issued a statement saying the US deserved it. Every other Middle Eastern government, even those who call us an enemy, expressed their sympathy and regret. There were protests in the streets of many Arab cities against the attacks. It wan't until our unprovoked attack on Iraq proved the terrorists' rhetoric against us true that the general public turned to their cause in any numbers.

The news has been suppressing a lot of the negatives that the Arabs have been doing.... Who still talks about the beheadings on a regular basis? They sure have been having themselves a field day with Jonbenet's killer.

Indeed, the press focuses on those stories so they can gloss over the conflicts in the Middle East. This is to downplay our own atrocities, which recieve almost no coverage; not those of the terrorists, which simply recieve slight coverage. Don't forget that mass media executives, those with editorial power over which stories get covered, are almost universally Republican. Why should we still be talking about the beheadings, which haven't happened in a couple years, and not talk about the ongoing abuse of prisoners in our custody, many of whom have not been charged with any wrongdoing?

While the execution has been nothing short of poor, I think there's no way you can say that an American model can't work in the Middle East. They're actually modeling the government in Iraq more after the British parliamentary system, aren't they? People said the same thing about the Germans and the Japanese after WW2. Any society can accept a free government by the people, for the people. I wish we forced their government to forbid the establishment of religion...

The puppet Iraqi government will collapse the instant the American military stops propping it up. Who are we to impose our system of government on anyone, or to force foreign governments to forbid anything? How is that any different from what the USSR did in eastern Europe?

Nobody said Germany and Japan wouldn't accept our form of government. Keep in mind that pre-Nazi Germany was a democracy. As has been said so many times on other threads, these WWII comparisons are apples and oranges.

[somad]

Looks like you got me on the dancing in the streets thing... I guess I was wrong. Regarding everything else, I still think you're wrong. I'm not going to get into it because I'm not going to respond to your line-by-line rebuttal with one of my own.. Aren't those against UP rules, anyways?

[Gusterfell]

Never mind, but I'd leave the moderating to the moderators.

[Snowguy716]

The news has been suppressing a lot of the negatives that the Arabs have been doing.... Who still talks about the beheadings on a regular basis? They sure have been having themselves a field day with Jonbenet's killer. I didn't say that Islam was horrible and evil, but I did say that the radical Islamic populations view Judiasm and Christianity as evil. Are we supposed to say an enemy who wouldn't mind killing you or me, or a busload of schoolchildren in the name of Allah isn't evil? Just because bad things have happened at the hands of Christians in the past doesn't mean anything, and they'll still go after you even if you're an athiest. If you're not with them, you're an infidel.

What's the difference between a Muslim who thinks all non-Muslims are hte infidel and those they capture deserve to be beheaded... and "Christians" who think all non-Christians are going to burn in hell for eternity.. let me be more specific... non-saved people according to their narrow Biblical view will burn for eternity and that wrong-doers deserve the death penalty? I don't get it. It's like an apple condemning an orange for being a fruit.

While the execution has been nothing short of poor, I think there's no way you can say that an American model can't work in the Middle East. They're actually modeling the government in Iraq more after the British parliamentary system, aren't they? People said the same thing about the Germans and the Japanese after WW2. Any society can accept a free government by the people, for the people. I wish we forced their government to forbid the establishment of religion...

"I wish we forced their government"...

WE can't force THEM to do anything that THEY don't want to do. We will not lead Iraq to democracy with guns and ammo or shock and awe. The people of Iraq will lead themselves to democracy with guidance from the democratic world by their own will, for their own reasons, and for their own ambitions.

[Charlotteman]

Personally, I think all of man's religions are an enemy to man.

Islam is intolerant, agressive and mean. So is x-tianity. The world would be a much happier place without religion IMHO:)

[suburban george3]

Personally, I think all of man's religions are an enemy to man.

IMO, religion was created as a way to control the uneducated masses of many centuries ago. Religion has outlived it's usefullness except for radical conservatives in this country and suicidal fanatics in others. IMO.

[lammius]

IMO, religion was created as a way to control the uneducated masses of many centuries ago. Religion has outlived it's usefullness except for radical conservatives in this country and suicidal fanatics in others. IMO.

IAWTC!