Opinions of Hartford

[HartfordTycoon]

Obviously Mikel has very different goals for Hartford than the rest of us. It's a free country, he's free to want Hartford anyway he wants. I'm just thankful he's not our city planner. To each his own. I personally think we are moving in the right direction as I state pretty much every day and am optimistic about Hartford. If that means I'm ignorant, than ignorance is bliss and I guess all of the suburnites who hate Hartford are the enlightened ones.

[mikel]

Obviously Mikel has very different goals for Hartford than the rest of us. It's a free country, he's free to want Hartford anyway he wants. I'm just thankful he's not our city planner. To each his own. I personally think we are moving in the right direction as I state pretty much every day and am optimistic about Hartford. If that means I'm ignorant, than ignorance is bliss and I guess all of the suburnites who hate Hartford are the enlightened ones.

I hope you're not implying I'm a suburbanite who never goes into Hartford. I am typing this from downtown.

[HartfordTycoon]

I hope you're not implying I'm a suburbanite who never goes into Hartford. I am typing this from downtown.

Not implying that at all. I said what I meant, your vision for Hartford differs dramatically from most here on the Hartford forum at UP, and most I know in the area period. Generally we fault suburnites here for not seeing the value, potential, and progress being made in Hartford. While you are not a suburbanite I do certainly lump you into this category of thought.

[jcrc]

Mikel,

Civic Center WAS viable, but all those businesses inside are long gone. If civic center is such a great building, then all those businesses would not have left. Hartford wants to encourage pedestrian traffic, not some indoor mall that robs the city of foot traffic. H21 may or may not be all that attractive, but until it is done, and with shops in it, I will wait and see. In order to renovate civic center there must be a plan as how to use the building. Since no one has a realistic plan to make it viable again, I think Northland's proposal of a mini Rockefeller Center is worth city's consideration.

I agree with you on some of the points, especially the convention center, but still I think overall Hartford is heading to the right direction. I wish some of the planning are better, I wish some of the building are done better, but I am optimistic, albeit with intermittent frustration mixed in.

[HartfordTycoon]

Mikel,

Civic Center WAS viable, but all those businesses inside are long gone. If civic center is such a great building, then all those businesses would not have left. Hartford wants to encourage pedestrian traffic, not some indoor mall that robs the city of foot traffic. H21 may or may not be all that attractive, but until it is done, and with shops in it, I will wait and see. In order to renovate civic center there must be a plan as how to use the building. Since no one has a realistic plan to make it viable again, I think Northland's proposal of a mini Rockefeller Center is worth city's consideration.

I agree with you on some of the points, especially the convention center, but still I think overall Hartford is heading to the right direction. I wish some of the planning are better, I wish some of the building are done better, but I am optimistic, albeit with intermittent frustration mixed in.

Most of us are optimistic, Mikel on the other hand thinks optimism = ignorance. That's what I mean when I say our visions and perceptions differ. Most here think progress is being made, Mikel sees none. Oh well. It doesn't bother me, plenty of people feel like that and I've been defending Hartford since before it was in fashion and don't even feel as if I'm really defending anymore, rather marketing the city for petential and progress that is obvious to most people. I was in Boston with my friends from college over the weekend, both from Boston and neither one had any good thoughts of Hartford when I first met them in 1999 freshman year. Now that's changed, one works at a law firm with offices in Hartford and says he hears good things from the Hartford based lawyers about what's happening Downtown. So I say we are improving our image and the hard work is paying off.

[mikel]

Not implying that at all. I said what I meant, your vision for Hartford differs dramatically from most here on the Hartford forum at UP, and most I know in the area period. Generally we fault suburnites here for not seeing the value, potential, and progress being made in Hartford. While you are not a suburbanite I do certainly lump you into this category of thought.

But you'd be wrong, because I see unlimited potential and I think downtown Hartford should be the most valuable piece of land between New York and Boston.

But I'm not impressed with the progress or the way things are being done, at all.

[redbaron]

I do think H21 is a big improvement from what was there before. The YMCA tower should also replace a vacant lot at Pearl and Jewel.

Are you kidding me.... I live and work in Downtown and think H21 is a huge improvement from what was there... Wait til the storefronts are filled and people move in... We need people in the heart of downtown which is exactly what this provides....

[mikel]

Honestly, what sounds appealing to me is Hartford being the epicenter of the region, having restored and clean neighborhoods around it, walkable streets, places to congregate.

I don't want Hartford to be a place where a select few millionaires play with their skyscrapers and parking garages, because that is not going to create a healthy neighborhood environment. I want middle class housing, sunshine, shops, mass transit, etc. I want to attract jobs obviously, with infrastructure, and without suburbs trying to lure away companies. The skyline of Hartford is worthless to me, what's important is what's inside. I wish more people thought like that.

[Bill Mocarsky]

Civic Center WAS viable, but all those businesses inside are long gone. If civic center is such a great building, then all those businesses would not have left. Hartford wants to encourage pedestrian traffic, not some indoor mall that robs the city of foot traffic. H21 may or may not be all that attractive, but until it is done, and with shops in it, I will wait and see. In order to renovate civic center there must be a plan as how to use the building. Since no one has a realistic plan to make it viable again, I think Northland's proposal of a mini Rockefeller Center is worth city's consideration.

The Civic Center mall felt like a cul de sac to me. Hartford has other examples of these dead ends. The former retail section at the north end of Constitution Plaza is a cul de sac.

I feel great open spaces should lead somewhere. I would have preferred if the Civic center mall had an entrance on Ann Street at the head of Allyn Street. It would have completed a corridor linking Pratt Street to Allyn Street and Union Place. I would have put the Asylum Street entrance at the head of Haynes street (which I hope would lead to Bushnell Park).

From the central court, each exit would be a gateway.

East: Main Street via Pratt Street.

South: Bushnell Park via Haynes Street.

West: Union Place via Allyn Street.

[HartfordTycoon]

But you'd be wrong, because I see unlimited potential and I think downtown Hartford should be the most valuable piece of land between New York and Boston.

But I'm not impressed with the progress or the way things are being done, at all.

Which is what I said. We differ in perception. Not really a big deal, unless you get elected or appointed to a position of power......

[mikel]

Which is what I said. We differ in perception. Not really a big deal, unless you get elected or appointed to a position of power......

I don't follow you. Are you suggesting it would be a big deal if I was elected or appointed? The biggest problem with that is that Hartford would lose a great devil's advocate.

[HartfordTycoon]

I don't follow you. Are you suggesting it would be a big deal if I was elected or appointed? The biggest problem with that is that Hartford would lose a great devil's advocate.

Yes, I'm implying that I would not be comfortable with that given our differing view points.

However I do agree with you here.

Honestly, what sounds appealing to me is Hartford being the epicenter of the region, having restored and clean neighborhoods around it, walkable streets, places to congregate.

I think we just have different ways we would like to go about getting there.

You see, I like most people I know love the skyline. It is a sense of pride. I like towers in general and would love to get some new attractive ones. I also love mid rise and low rise buildings where appropriate and feel that we could benefit tremendously by infilling some gaps with this type of construction. I just don't feel as if they are appropriate in every vacant lot downtown. That's all.

[mikel]

Yes, I'm implying that I would not be comfortable with that given our differing view points.

However I do agree with you here.

I think we just have different ways we would like to go about getting there.

You see, I like most people I know love the skyline. It is a sense of pride. I like towers in general and would love to get some new attractive ones. I also love mid rise and low rise buildings where appropriate and feel that we could benefit tremendously by infilling some gaps with this type of construction. I just don't feel as if they are appropriate in every vacant lot downtown. That's all.

It was such worth such a sense of pride, though, that countless neighborhoods and historic buildings were destroyed so it could be attained. For pride, the city's heart was ripped out, for the sake of a bunch of developers' and city leaders' "compensation", if you know what I'm getting at. If it's not good at street level, it's not worth much to me.

[HartfordTycoon]

It was such worth such a sense of pride, though, that countless neighborhoods and historic buildings were destroyed so it could be attained. For pride, the city's heart was ripped out, for the sake of a bunch of developers' and city leaders' "compensation", if you know what I'm getting at. If it's not good at street level, it's not worth much to me.

And you have made that point abundantly clear. I don't completely agree. That does not mean I don't want a lively streetscape. I think that it's good exposure for the city to be visible from miles away, so that even passing motorist or people from other towns always know we are here, whether or not they even set foot here. I think that many of the new towers have better streetscapes than older towers did, IMO H21 is a great example of that. Those storefronts will fill with quality tenants eventually and that will be infinitely more valuable than the decrepit civic center mall, of which I was very familiar with, but no fan of in it's later years.

[ctman987]

Hartford is not perfect, Hartford has made mistakes, Hartford is not what is used to....now I could insert a variety of cities in those comments to replace Hartford because cities (except for large international cities) are not what they used to be because of the automobile, interstate and sprawl.

I have been to a ton of cities where I look around and say you know what Hartford isnt worse then this but yet it gets a worse rap.

There are hundreds of cities across the country that are in the same position of Hartford even though some of them may be bigger then Hartford, smaller then Hartford, at a differant step in revitilization, etc. Cities like Providence, New Haven, Bridgeport, Stamford, Buffalo, Albany, Camden, Charolette, Baltimore and Washington DC just to name a few have their problems, have seen population loss, redevelopment projects, sprawl, etc just like Hartford.

Now I love Hartford and see almost everything big and small as positive for the city ...with some restrictions. Such as building retail space in the North Meadows that will probably become home to big box stores. Right now Hartford has a lot going for and is working on improving itself. Every step counts in the city meaning every project (big or small) is noteworthy. For me I get angered by the closing of city stores and restaurants (Beckers, No Fish Today, Coachs - temporarily, Pastis- temporarily) and excited about the opening of new ones (Joe Blacks, Feng, Russell, Morty and Mings, Vivo, Crush, Element 315, etc).

Density is something that needs to be worked on. The courant hosted a discussion on a sprawl and I remember speaking to one of the guest speakers (a former Maryand governor) who told me he looked out of his room at the top of the Hilton and all he saw were parking lots...more parking then was needed for a city. We need to get the city more dense.....by making more mixed use buildings whether they are skyscrapers for 8-10 story buildings they should have shopping, living, office space, public areas, etc.

[mikel]

And you have made that point abundantly clear. I don't completely agree. That does not mean I don't want a lively streetscape. I think that it's good exposure for the city to be visible from miles away, so that even passing motorist or people from other towns always know we are here, whether or not they even set foot here. I think that many of the new towers have better streetscapes than older towers did, IMO H21 is a great example of that. Those storefronts will fill with quality tenants eventually and that will be infinitely more valuable than the decrepit civic center mall, of which I was very familiar with, but no fan of in it's later years.

Alright I personally see no value in building something just for passing motorists, but that's just me.

Also, the Civic Center Mall was in no way decrepit, it was in great condition. It probably could have used some facade work, but the interior was great and something we've lost and are lesser for it.

[mikel]

Hartford is not perfect, Hartford has made mistakes, Hartford is not what is used to....now I could insert a variety of cities in those comments to replace Hartford because cities (except for large international cities) are not what they used to be because of the automobile, interstate and sprawl.

I have been to a ton of cities where I look around and say you know what Hartford isnt worse then this but yet it gets a worse rap.

Yeah but not a lot of cities were the most beautiful city Mark Twain ever came across. I think we should face it, Hartford was once a gorgeous city, and greed turned it into the ugly mess it is, and deserves harsher critisism because of that. Many cities were always ugly and aren't worth much discussion. If there were more people critical of new development like me, perhaps Hartford would be an internationally-renowned jewel today. After all, we've all (hopefully) seen the pictures, the city was incredible until the skyscraper mindset took over.

[redbaron]

Also, the Civic Center Mall was in no way decrepit, it was in great condition. It probably could have used some facade work, but the interior was great and something we've lost and are lesser for it.

Hartford will hardly miss the civic center mall or the 3 stores that were left. The whalers had to play in a mall, they were a laughingstock for that reason (and the fact they rarely skated a good team)

[Hartfordfan]

Hartford will hardly miss the civic center mall or the 3 stores that were left. The whalers had to play in a mall, they were a laughingstock for that reason (and the fact they rarely skated a good team)

[Luca Brasi]

1. Anyone who argues that the Civic Center Mall should have been saved in place of H21 and then argues that downtown needs to be more European is arguing against himself. I worked on Pearl St. and parked in the Hilton garage for 5 years. The Civic Center Mall was nothing more than a pedestrian walkway in cold weather. It pulled people off the street and put them into an empty, unsuccessful mall. When I walked through after work on my way back to the garage, the 3 or so stores that were still in business were all closed. It was an eyesore to out of towners - trust me, I heard the opinions constantly. The Mall added nothing to the streetscape on Trumbull and Asylum except for blank concrete walls. There was not one storefront facing the street that was open except for Wendy's when Northland made their proposal. I can't think of a more un-european situation. I'll take the 200+ luxury apartments (and the residents disposable incomes) and STREET FACING retail of this project over the existing Civic center Mall anyday.

2. The Convention Center replaced a sea of surface parking lots and will bring more people that much closer to the riverfront once the Science Center is completed. Yes, it would be nice to have an urban neighborhood in this area, but its been tough enough getting Front St. off the ground. For someone who complains about empty lots all time (which is a peeve of mine also), this is also a no brainer.

3. Arguing that Hartford is better off keeping the existing YMCA residential building over a new condo complex is foolish. A majority of panhandlers and car break-ins come from residents who live in the present YMCA. The condo complex will again serve to bring more middle class and upper class residents and their badly needed dollars into downtown. This is another no-brainer.

Arguing against these three projects is typical of suburbanite Laurence Cohen-ish thinking. I can't imagine thinking the city is better off without them.

[MadVlad]

I think the biggest point he has made is he's sick of the open parking lots.... then critisizes the "white elephant" convention center which replaced an old MDC building and, drum roll please, a bunch of parking lots. I think he beotches just to beotch. I'm done with this thread..... /ignore

[drc72]

I think the city is heading in a better direction than it has in the last half century or more. In the very least, there seems to be a growing sense of awareness to some important issues. This discussion board is evidence.

I was thinking the same thing. Nobody says that Hartford is out of the woods yet, but if I had to compare the Hartford of 2006, to the Hartford of 1996, I would say the city is doing much much better now. Does more need to be done? Hell Yeah!!! There's plenty that needs to be done. Revitalization is not done over night.

[beerbeer]

Young mikel is brilliantly insightful as usual.

There are a few exceptions to his observations.

The convention center is running well ahead of schedule in booking events. If Nitkin comes through in September. It will provide further impetus for the building and have turned a brownfield (and empty parking lots) into a world class science center, a upscale hotel, a functional convention center and addtional downtown residential and retail.

Hartford21 equals 262 apartments filled with people who will eat, shop, work and play downtown. The civic center mall was losing money for its owners, it was imploding. And counter to you rose colored view, the place was dead.

A new tower on Bushnell Park will add 300 apartments filled with people who will live, shop, eat, play and work downtown versus a hotel for transcients.

The Morgan Street garage replaced a smaller parking garage. Zero downside to that. In fact it reduces the need for more surface parking.

Hartford Times Building is being converted into the Wadsworth Athenium annex. That's a huge cultural plus for the city as the museum will now have room to display more of its permanent collection.

I agree completely on the busway -- don't get me started either.

I agree about the roadways. This is a Connecticut problem, not just Hartford. In fact, it is a national problem.

Building at Main and Trumbull is commonly referred to as he Butt Ugly Building. Glad you like it. It currently addss nothing to the city except making the entrace to the north end look llke Berlin in 1945.

Tearing down public housing projects reduces criime. That is a very good thing.

The riverfront is coming along nicely. It toook decades to ruin the riverfront and it will take a while to fix it. But the important point is that it is being fixed.

There is no question that the city on a positive trajectory. You have to be in a closet not to see it. Perhaps that is why you think the city is in the dark ages. Open the door.

Good job, you batted about about 20% on your post. Way above your average.

[mikel]

I was thinking the same thing. Nobody says that Hartford is out of the woods yet, but if I had to compare the Hartford of 2006, to the Hartford of 1996, I would say the city is doing much much better now. Does more need to be done? Hell Yeah!!! There's plenty that needs to be done. Revitalization is not done over night.

I disagree. In 1996, the Whalers played in the Civic Center, there was Luettgin's (sp?) and TJ Maxx in the Civic Center, along with a food court, there were two record stores downtown, a bookstore, a Footlocker, a Gap, two Radio Shacks, a peanut store and a chocolate/candy store, a great Italian restaurant downtown (Gaetano's), an Eastern Mountain Sports, the Hartford brewery, the Richardson Mall, and this is just off the top of my head. There was a lot more to do.

[HartfordTycoon]

I disagree. In 1996, the Whalers played in the Civic Center, there was Luettgin's (sp?) and TJ Maxx in the Civic Center, along with a food court, there were two record stores downtown, a bookstore, a Footlocker, a Gap, two Radio Shacks, a peanut store and a chocolate/candy store, a great Italian restaurant downtown (Gaetano's), an Eastern Mountain Sports, the Hartford brewery, the Richardson Mall, and this is just off the top of my head. There was a lot more to do.

I really agree with you here. I was downtown every day after high school when I changed buses going home and we would stay for hours, there was a lot of stuff to do then. I think the departure of the Whalers is what really killed Downtown in the first place. After that all of those places died one by one, leaving us with what had become an eyesore regarding the civic center at least. The fact is that there was no way to realistically bring the civic center back to life, so it was time for it to go. I happen to like what's in it's place and am very happy with Northland thus far. But I like new glassy buildings. So it suits my taste.